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      03-25-2008, 01:52 PM   #287
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Originally Posted by e90im View Post
Its been 6.5 years since 9-11 and Bush hasnt mentioned Bin Laden in years. It certainly is very difficult to get him if we spend $12b/month in Iraq. Hard work? So a caveman can kill 3k Americans, laugh in our face and all you say is: Well its hard work! It takes timeHow much time? Decades? There is obviously no determination on the part of administration to make it first priority. Meanwhile we are on a wild goose chase in Iraq.
Are you privy to the guidance the President gives to the DNI or the SecDef regarding UBL? I am not so our arguing the relative priority that is given to locating him is pointless. Why do you think the money spent in Iraq relates to locating him? What indications are there that a lack of available funds has influenced the hunt?
As for how long we should search, as long as it takes.

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I never said anything about invading SA. I just pointed out that while they are obviously sponsoring terrorism, you boy G.Dub holds hands with them.
Because the hijackers were Saudis means the Saudi government sponsered them? UBL is a Saudi and his primary goal is the removal of the ruling family.

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Our analysis and information are very different. While you see prosperity and bright future in Iraq, I see chaos. Your stubbornness, unwillingness to accept and learn from mistakes, loyalty and obedience to authority are borderline religious.
I see the POTENTIAL for a bright future in Iraq. Nothing is guaranteed except that if we leave prematurly it will not happen. I have stated where I get the info I use in my analysis. Where do you get yours?

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Why NOT criticize him then? Why defending a failed policy and incompetent draft dodger?
I criticize where it is warranted. In the case of the current Iraq policy, that is simply not the case.

As for the draft dodger, I supported him when warranted (NAFTA, Iraq) and criticized him as well. (Somalia, Lewinski, taxes)
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      03-25-2008, 04:08 PM   #288
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Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
Are you privy to the guidance the President gives to the DNI or the SecDef regarding UBL? I am not so our arguing the relative priority that is given to locating him is pointless. Why do you think the money spent in Iraq relates to locating him? What indications are there that a lack of available funds has influenced the hunt?
As for how long we should search, as long as it takes.



Because the hijackers were Saudis means the Saudi government sponsered them? UBL is a Saudi and his primary goal is the removal of the ruling family.



I see the POTENTIAL for a bright future in Iraq. Nothing is guaranteed except that if we leave prematurly it will not happen. I have stated where I get the info I use in my analysis. Where do you get yours?



I criticize where it is warranted. In the case of the current Iraq policy, that is simply not the case.

As for the draft dodger, I supported him when warranted (NAFTA, Iraq) and criticized him as well. (Somalia, Lewinski, taxes)
I meant Bush, draft dodger...

So you don't find that NOT acting after the Aug 6 '01 memo" Bin Laden to attack US is worth criticizing for? 7 minutes of reading My pet goat when Bin Laden attacked America?
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      03-25-2008, 05:36 PM   #289
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Originally Posted by e90im View Post
I meant Bush, draft dodger...

So you don't find that NOT acting after the Aug 6 '01 memo" Bin Laden to attack US is worth criticizing for? 7 minutes of reading My pet goat when Bin Laden attacked America?
President Bush could not have dodged the draft as he was not eligible to be drafted as a member of the Texas Air National Guard.

The Presidential Daily Brief you refer to did not contain any actionable intelligence. It basically reiterated what was already known, bin Laden was intent on attacking the US. What do you think he should have done based on this report which gave no indication of a date, method, or target for the attack?

As for the President's reaction, I am not sure 7 minutes is an inordinate amount of time to absorb such news. I know it took me a few minutes to appreciate the news.
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      03-25-2008, 06:20 PM   #290
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Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
President Bush could not have dodged the draft as he was not eligible to be drafted as a member of the Texas Air National Guard.The Presidential Daily Brief you refer to did not contain any actionable intelligence. It basically reiterated what was already known, bin Laden was intent on attacking the US. What do you think he should have done based on this report which gave no indication of a date, method, or target for the attack?

As for the President's reaction, I am not sure 7 minutes is an inordinate amount of time to absorb such news. I know it took me a few minutes to appreciate the news.
I guess Ganeil is always right...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/1999...ctions2000.usa

"But records published in the US press show that Mr Bush won a pilot's slot in the National Guard in front of thousands of others, despite scoring only 25% in his aptitude test: the lowest acceptable grade. He was sworn in on the day he applied."

Also answers Ganeil's claim that Bush is in the top 5% IQ...

I guess this time we should not trust Guardian because it does not fit what we wish for...but it was obvious Guardian had clear info on the WMD in 2002/3
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      03-25-2008, 06:30 PM   #291
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I hate to burst your bubble but none of what you said is factual nor does it have but the most tenuous connection to reality. If there is one thing my years of service in the government has proven to me it is this...

We cannot keep a secret!

If you want to believe that dark and sinister forces are manipulating your life and the world around you, there is nothing I can say or do to convince you otherwise.
None of it is secret, the problem with the govt is politicians like yourself then, no offense but you fit the stereotype, im sure none taken. So whats your job in our lovely govt?

Btw their are no dark secret forces, you are reading too much into it, you obviously are reading it at all then. Fact is the bush family has had an huge influence on the CIA and vice versa, its obvious, and expected, if you cant even admit that simple fact thats a problem.
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      03-25-2008, 06:42 PM   #292
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None of it is secret, the problem with the govt is politicians like yourself then, no offense but you fit the stereotype, im sure none taken. So whats your job in our lovely govt?

Btw their are no dark secret forces, you are reading too much into it, you obviously are reading it at all then. Fact is the bush family has had an huge influence on the CIA and vice versa, its obvious, and expected, if you cant even admit that simple fact thats a problem.
I am/was not a politician but a soldier. The influence the Bush family had on the CIA was simply that for a short time George H.W. Bush was DCI, and then he served as VP and President. Then, of course, his son served as President as well. Why do you have to believe there is any more to it than that?
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      03-25-2008, 07:37 PM   #293
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Uhm lets see,
-The People choose the President
-4 years later THE PEOPLE reelect the same President
-People say President is an idiot ---> People are idiots????

Saying Bush is an idiot is saying that over half the country are also idiots(cause they freakin elected HIM!!!!), but hey over 75% of Americans are doing just that .... sucks for us that we live in an idiotic country huh?

What about the Senate or House of Reps, what were they doing while Bush said lets go to war???
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      03-25-2008, 07:49 PM   #294
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Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
President Bush could not have dodged the draft as he was not eligible to be drafted as a member of the Texas Air National Guard.

The Presidential Daily Brief you refer to did not contain any actionable intelligence. It basically reiterated what was already known, bin Laden was intent on attacking the US. What do you think he should have done based on this report which gave no indication of a date, method, or target for the attack?

As for the President's reaction, I am not sure 7 minutes is an inordinate amount of time to absorb such news. I know it took me a few minutes to appreciate the news.

He was in the National guard in order to dodge draft.

7 minutes is obviously OK for you. Do firemen take 7 minutes to think whether to go and put the fire away? Does pilot think for 7 minutes after engine failure on takeoff before applying corrective action?

If you are commander in chief, wouldn’t you want to know what is going on and take appropriate steps? Instead he just sat there like incompetent retard.
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      03-25-2008, 08:09 PM   #295
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Originally Posted by e90im View Post
He was in the National guard in order to dodge draft.
Why do you believe he wanted to dodge the draft? Do you have any idea if he had a draft number? If so, what was it? Why would he do so by volunteering to fly a fighter plane?

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7 minutes is obviously OK for you. Do firemen take 7 minutes to think whether to go and put the fire away? Does pilot think for 7 minutes after engine failure on takeoff before applying corrective action?

If you are commander in chief, wouldn’t you want to know what is going on and take appropriate steps? Instead he just sat there like incompetent retard.
What do you believe he could have done in those 7 minutes that could not have been done as well in minute number eight?

I want my commanders to consider their responses if possible. This situation was not analogous to a fire or an aircraft emergency as he was not in a position to immediately influence events.

Do you have any idea how other presidents have reacted to similar situations?
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      03-25-2008, 08:36 PM   #296
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Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
I am/was not a politician but a soldier. The influence the Bush family had on the CIA was simply that for a short time George H.W. Bush was DCI, and then he served as VP and President. Then, of course, his son served as President as well. Why do you have to believe there is any more to it than that?
The NPO is a joint operation part of COG, its FEMA, the CIA, The State, and The Army, Bush ran it inbetween his time as DCI and President, CNN stated this in 1991. Bush also served as Reagan's adviser where he convinced Reagan to sign off the COG. Durring both his and his son's presidency the CIA has been one of the main forces used to invade Iraq, again look up Curveball (infomant) if you see a picture you should remember seeing him in the news, it's well known the CIA contracts companies that hire reporters which allowed them to do so. Maybe not neccisarily a conjunction, but probably (seeing how he was the director at one point and removed for an operation that was very well covered up), but definitely a similar set of motives for obvious reasons.


Also, Bush did use the NPO on 9/11 on the record. Clinton tried to demolish it, but it obviously failed.
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      03-25-2008, 08:54 PM   #297
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Originally Posted by schneid4323 View Post
The NPO is a joint operation part of COG, its FEMA, the CIA, The State, and The Army, Bush ran it inbetween his time as DCI and President, CNN stated this in 1991. Bush also served as Reagan's adviser where he convinced Reagan to sign off the COG. Durring both his and his son's presidency the CIA has been one of the main forces used to invade Iraq, again look up Curveball (infomant) if you see a picture you should remember seeing him in the news, it's well known the CIA contracts companies that hire reporters which allowed them to do so. Maybe not neccisarily a conjunction, but probably (seeing how he was the director at one point and removed for an operation that was very well covered up), but definitely a similar set of motives for obvious reasons.


Also, Bush did use the NPO on 9/11 on the record. Clinton tried to demolish it, but it obviously failed.
I will not debate this with you as it is disconnected from reality.

I do have a couple of questions you should ponder...

If the NPO was created by a secret Executive Order by President Reagan, how was Bush involved with it as DCI fours prior to Reagan taking office?

If it was created by Executive Order, how could President Clinton (the Executive) fail to dismantle it? The only thing required to rescind an Executive order is another Executive Order.
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      03-25-2008, 10:08 PM   #298
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Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
I will not debate this with you as it is disconnected from reality.

I do have a couple of questions you should ponder...

If the NPO was created by a secret Executive Order by President Reagan, how was Bush involved with it as DCI fours prior to Reagan taking office?

If it was created by Executive Order, how could President Clinton (the Executive) fail to dismantle it? The only thing required to rescind an Executive order is another Executive Order.
Not the full amount of time, why dont you watch the video?
its got 11 parts to it. Black op's which is what this would be classified are pretty hard to take down, especially when the CIA sees a need for it. Didnt work out quite like Kennedy/LBJ transitions.

Also this short version,


But we are detouring from the point.
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      03-26-2008, 03:51 AM   #299
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Saying Bush is an idiot is saying that over half the country are also idiots(cause they freakin elected HIM!!!!), but hey over 75% of Americans are doing just that .... sucks for us that we live in an idiotic country huh?
Much more than half of this country are idiots, and a large chunk of those are close to being mentally retarded. Is this really news for you?

P.S
Schneid's posts make me want to headbutt a wall.
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      03-26-2008, 07:50 AM   #300
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Originally Posted by schneid4323 View Post
Not the full amount of time, why dont you watch the video?
its got 11 parts to it. Black op's which is what this would be classified are pretty hard to take down, especially when the CIA sees a need for it. Didnt work out quite like Kennedy/LBJ transitions.

Also this short version,


But we are detouring from the point.
I watched your video.

Now you should watch mine.
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      03-26-2008, 03:37 PM   #301
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Why do you believe he wanted to dodge the draft? Do you have any idea if he had a draft number? If so, what was it? Why would he do so by volunteering to fly a fighter plane?
George W. Bush applied to join the Texas Air National Guard on May 27, 1968, less than two weeks before he graduated from Yale University. The country was at war in Vietnam, and at that time, just months after the bloody Tet Offensive, an estimated 100,000 Americans were on waiting lists to join Guard units across the country. Bush was sworn in on the day he applied.

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What do you believe he could have done in those 7 minutes that could not have been done as well in minute number eight?


Boeing 757 can easily fly 300+ knots at sea level. That is 5 nautical miles per minute which results in 35 miles in 7 minutes. There could’ve been a dozen more hijacked airplanes in the air.

On second thought, you are right. He should’ve sat there for a couple of years and let more competent people handle the situation.

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I want my commanders to consider their responses if possible. This situation was not analogous to a fire or an aircraft emergency as he was not in a position to immediately influence events.
You can’t be serious that Bush was evaluating response when HE DIDN”T KNOW what the hell happened. He was told that” AMERICA IS UNDER ATTACK! Wouldn’t you need to be privy with the specifics before you can contemplate alternative responses????
And BTW, he saw the first plane hit WTC before going to meet the kids.

[u2b]Btmfs-0zujQ&feature=related[/u2b]

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Do you have any idea how other presidents have reacted to similar situations?
We are talking about Bush here. You can start “other presidents” thread at your leisure.
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      03-26-2008, 04:03 PM   #302
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Originally Posted by e90im View Post
George W. Bush applied to join the Texas Air National Guard on May 27, 1968, less than two weeks before he graduated from Yale University. The country was at war in Vietnam, and at that time, just months after the bloody Tet Offensive, an estimated 100,000 Americans were on waiting lists to join Guard units across the country. Bush was sworn in on the day he applied.
Is this supposed to answer the questions I asked?

I still do not know why you believe GW Bush wanted to dodge the draft or whether he had a draft number that put him at risk at all.

I also do not know why you believe that he chose to fly fighter planes in order to avoid being drafted.

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Boeing 757 can easily fly 300+ knots at sea level. That is 5 nautical miles per minute which results in 35 miles in 7 minutes. There could’ve been a dozen more hijacked airplanes in the air.
Again, you fail to answer a simple question. What do you believe HE could have done in those seven minutes that could not have been just as well done in the eighth minute?

Was there an F-102 available for him to intercept any hijacked planes?

Was there a Patriot missile battery in need of orders?

Quote:
You can’t be serious that Bush was evaluating response when HE DIDN”T KNOW what the hell happened. He was told that” AMERICA IS UNDER ATTACK! Wouldn’t you need to be privy with the specifics before you can contemplate alternative responses????
And BTW, he saw the first plane hit WTC before going to meet the kids.
So, did he know we were under attack and that hijacked aircraft were used or not?

If as you say he did, then there was plenty to contemplate.
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      03-26-2008, 04:30 PM   #303
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So, did he know we were under attack and that hijacked aircraft were used or not?

If as you say he did, then there was plenty to contemplate.
Are you serious???
Do you know where WTC used to stand -- not in ANY path of ANY aircraft or runway approach.

Stop fooling yourself, and use that brain a little bit...
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      03-26-2008, 07:31 PM   #304
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      03-26-2008, 07:36 PM   #305
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Is this supposed to answer the questions I asked?

I still do not know why you believe GW Bush wanted to dodge the draft or whether he had a draft number that put him at risk at all.

I also do not know why you believe that he chose to fly fighter planes in order to avoid being drafted.
Hey soldier man, don’t you know that he hid in Champaign unit that wasn’t going to see war?
As that wasn’t enough he went AWOL.
Please don’t play dumb.

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Again, you fail to answer a simple question. What do you believe HE could have done in those seven minutes that could not have been just as well done in the eighth minute?
Was there an F-102 available for him to intercept any hijacked planes?
Was there a Patriot missile battery in need of orders? .
By your logic, the longer he waited the better decision he was going to make.
What do you believe HE could have done in seven days that could not have been just as well done on the eighth day?

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Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
So, did he know we were under attack and that hijacked aircraft were used or not?
If as you say he did, then there was plenty to contemplate.
I didn’t say it, he did. Watch the video.
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      03-26-2008, 08:13 PM   #306
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Hey soldier man, don’t you know that he hid in Champaign unit that wasn’t going to see war?
As that wasn’t enough he went AWOL.
Please don’t play dumb.
I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you are simply ill informed rather than willfully ignorant or disingenuous.

If his intent was to hide, he did a damned poor job of it. His first two years of Guard duty consisted mostly of service on active duty. Basic training, flight training, and air intercept training required over a year and a half alone of active duty in his first two years of duty.

At the time, Guardsmen were required to earn 50 points a year. Points were awarded based on number of days served with 15 a year for just being in a unit. The President's point totals for his 6 years of duty were as follows: 253, 340, 137 ,112, 56 points, and 56 again in his shortened final year.

The President met all of his TX ANG requirements with honor. The AWOL charge simply is not true and is used as a crutch by those without actual information to rationalize their hatred of the President.

So I ask again, why do you believe GW Bush wanted to dodge the draft? Did he have a draft number that put him at risk at all?

Why do you believe that he chose to fly fighter planes in order to avoid being drafted? There were surely safer was to avoid service weren't there?

Quote:
By your logic, the longer he waited the better decision he was going to make.
What do you believe HE could have done in seven days that could not have been just as well done on the eighth day?
Are you simply incapable of answering a question?
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      03-26-2008, 08:35 PM   #307
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I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you are simply ill informed rather than willfully ignorant or disingenuous.

If his intent was to hide, he did a damned poor job of it. His first two years of Guard duty consisted mostly of service on active duty. Basic training, flight training, and air intercept training required over a year and a half alone of active duty in his first two years of duty.

At the time, Guardsmen were required to earn 50 points a year. Points were awarded based on number of days served with 15 a year for just being in a unit. The President's point totals for his 6 years of duty were as follows: 253, 340, 137 ,112, 56 points, and 56 again in his shortened final year.

The President met all of his TX ANG requirements with honor. The AWOL charge simply is not true and is used as a crutch by those without actual information to rationalize their hatred of the President.

So I ask again, why do you believe GW Bush wanted to dodge the draft? Did he have a draft number that put him at risk at all?

Why do you believe that he chose to fly fighter planes in order to avoid being drafted? There were surely safer was to avoid service weren't there?



Are you simply incapable of answering a question?
Read the article above I linked to and maybe it will clarify it for you.
THen google more...
My 6-yo understood it right (though, she did not go through 40 years of brainwashing...)
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      03-26-2008, 09:47 PM   #308
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I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you are simply ill informed rather than willfully ignorant or disingenuous.

If his intent was to hide, he did a damned poor job of it. His first two years of Guard duty consisted mostly of service on active duty. Basic training, flight training, and air intercept training required over a year and a half alone of active duty in his first two years of duty.

At the time, Guardsmen were required to earn 50 points a year. Points were awarded based on number of days served with 15 a year for just being in a unit. The President's point totals for his 6 years of duty were as follows: 253, 340, 137 ,112, 56 points, and 56 again in his shortened final year.

The President met all of his TX ANG requirements with honor. The AWOL charge simply is not true and is used as a crutch by those without actual information to rationalize their hatred of the President.

So I ask again, why do you believe GW Bush wanted to dodge the draft? Did he have a draft number that put him at risk at all?

Why do you believe that he chose to fly fighter planes in order to avoid being drafted? There were surely safer was to avoid service weren't there?



Are you simply incapable of answering a question?
Arguing with you is pointless. You talk like indoctrinated and obedient servant.

HE COULD HAVE GONE TO WAR IF HE WANTED TO, WHICH IS A PATRIOTIC THING TO DO, IT’S WHAT DADDY BUHS DID. HE DID NOT.
HE WAS IN A CHAMPAIGN UNIT THAT WAS NEVER TO SEE ONE DAY OF COMBAT. YET, HE SENT KIDS TO FIGHT AND DIE IN IRAQ BASED ON NON-EXISTENT EVIDENCE. SHAME ON HIM.

CAN YOU HEAR ME NOW?

You answered it best when you suggested that he couldn’t have done anything. He showed incompetence and inability to act on his own without being told what to do.

Just picture any other world leader in the same situation and tell me you wouldn’t be laughing your ass off! He is a joke around the world, and he is our leader.

What do leaders do when their country is attacked? They must have some protocol to follow. Crap, I don’t know, how about: get the cabinet together, get briefed, make decisions on whether planes are going to be shot down…NOT sit like retard among kids for 7 minutes not knowing what to do.

In the end, I think we are not getting anywhere with this debate. We are not going to change each other minds. You will continue to claim how well informed you are, despite Bush’s obvious intellectual inferiority, recession, $4 gas and 4k US soldiers dead in Iraq. You spin your way, and all is good.

Good luck and be careful in Iraq. I hear violence levels are soaring. Later.
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