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      08-23-2013, 11:27 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by happos2 View Post
Thanks for the information. But we are assuming VAC takes a OEM bearing and then coats it... Is this a correct assumption or do they machine it so the aftercoating measurements are the same as OEM (.001").
All I can give you is circumstantial evidence they start life as factory bearings. Even though a company like Mahle-Clevite may make the factory bearings, the factory and aftermarket catalogs are two different things. Their aftermarket catalog doesn't list any bearings for the S65. Knowing that Clevite aftermarket catalogs can differ between localities (USA, Britain, Germany, etc.), I checked all three. I also emailed Clevite directly and got an immediate response saying that no aftermarket bearings are available for the S65. But even that wasn't enough for me, so I started looking in the Clevite bearing catalogs for other bearings that had the same size and specifications. This would make sure that there wasn't another application for the same bearing. I didn't find anything compatible. Another member mentioned that Pankl might have some compatible bearings, so I looked in their catalog also but didn't find anything. That's where I stopped looking. I didn't go as far looking at Pankl bearings as I did Clevite, but I couldn't find any compatible aftermarket bearings in either catalog.

I don't believe you can't machine them after the fact...but that's not my area of expertise.

Another person asked if you can resize the journal with the crank still in the engine. I believe there used to be a way to do this decades ago, but I'm not sure it's still in use. I wouldn't use it. I'm also not sure it would put the correct treating and surface back on the journal. Maybe kawasaki00 can chime in about this.

That's all I've got for you on it.

BTW, props to EAS for offering this service to their customers.
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      08-23-2013, 11:28 AM   #24
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1) is this mainly an issue with 2008 M3's? I read somewhere that the part number for the rod bearings where changed for 2009
2) I change my oil every 5,000 miles and send it in for analysis each time. Is it lead levels that I look at? especially if each subsequent sample shows rising levels?
3) Once changed, is this something that needs to be changed every 75,000 to 100,000 miles? So if I have 200,000 miles on the car I have to do this again? or do the new bearings correct the issue causing this?
4) I have a really good extended warranty on my car... can EAS recommend me to an ASE certified mechanic (needs to be ASE certified unless EAS knows a work around to get it covered under warranty) that can get the rod bearing replacement warranted based on my lead levels? What's the minimum cost to drop the oil pan and inspect?
5) There are so many threads regarding this... what is BMWNA's official stance on this? Will they fix this like they did the E46 M3s?
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      08-23-2013, 11:36 AM   #25
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1) is this mainly an issue with 2008 M3's? I read somewhere that the part number for the rod bearings where changed for 2009
The rod bearings have not changed, not even on 2008 models. Main bearings changed from 10/2008 onwards. But rods have not.

http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts...21&hg=11&fg=20
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      08-23-2013, 11:39 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Disciple7 View Post
is #8 furthest away from the oil pump/oil source or something? Or perhaps that bearing is a genuine bad bearing, skipped past QA.
For reference, this is the numbering and firing order for the S65:

Cylinder numbering is 1 through 4 on passenger (right) side and 5 through 8 on driver (left) side. Numbers 1 and 5 are at the front, 4 and 8 are at the rear.

Ignition firing order is 1-5-4-8-6-3-7-2 (except S65 = 1-5-4-8-7-2-6-3).
Bank-1 is the passenger side (cylinders 1 through 4), bank-2 is the driver side (cylinders 5 through 8).

Bearing for #4 look pretty bad, too - at the back like #8.
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      08-23-2013, 11:45 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by PandaM3 View Post
1) is this mainly an issue with 2008 M3's? I read somewhere that the part number for the rod bearings where changed for 2009
2) I change my oil every 5,000 miles and send it in for analysis each time. Is it lead levels that I look at? especially if each subsequent sample shows rising levels?
3) Once changed, is this something that needs to be changed every 75,000 to 100,000 miles? So if I have 200,000 miles on the car I have to do this again? or do the new bearings correct the issue causing this?
4) I have a really good extended warranty on my car... can EAS recommend me to an ASE certified mechanic (needs to be ASE certified unless EAS knows a work around to get it covered under warranty) that can get the rod bearing replacement warranted based on my lead levels? What's the minimum cost to drop the oil pan and inspect?
5) There are so many threads regarding this... what is BMWNA's official stance on this? Will they fix this like they did the E46 M3s?
1) No

2) Generally lead

3) There is a debate on whether this should be treated as a "regular" interval/maintenance item. Nobody has tested the coated bearings, whether they will fare better than OEM. Many people are saying there is a clearance issue in the S65 which these coated bearings do not seem to address (or could possibly make worse if thicker than OEM.)

4) Not a chance you would get these replaced under warranty

5) No official stance at all and will not change. The failure rates on the S54 were huge in comparison, only limited numbers of failures for the S65 thus far.
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      08-23-2013, 11:47 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by regular guy View Post
All I can give you is circumstantial evidence they start life as factory bearings. Even though a company like Mahle-Clevite may make the factory bearings, the factory and aftermarket catalogs are two different things. Their aftermarket catalog doesn't list any bearings for the S65. Knowing that Clevite aftermarket catalogs can differ between localities (USA, Britain, Germany, etc.), I checked all three. I also emailed Clevite directly and got an immediate response saying that no aftermarket bearings are available for the S65. But even that wasn't enough for me, so I started looking in the Clevite bearing catalogs for other bearings that had the same size and specifications. This would make sure that there wasn't another application for the same bearing. I didn't find anything compatible. Another member mentioned that Pankl might have some compatible bearings, so I looked in their catalog also but didn't find anything. That's where I stopped looking. I didn't go as far looking at Pankl bearings as I did Clevite, but I couldn't find any compatible aftermarket bearings in either catalog.

I don't believe you can't machine them after the fact...but that's not my area of expertise.
Another person asked if you can resize the journal with the crank still in the engine. I believe there used to be away to do this decades ago, but I'm not sure it's still in use. I wouldn't use it. I'm also not sure it would put the correct treating and surface back on the journal. Maybe kawasaki00 can chime in about this.

That's all I've got for you on it.

BTW, props to EAS for offering this service to their customers.

I was hinting at potentailly making the journals thiner and use the coating thickness (though not the most accurate process) to make up the difference and create an OEM fitment.

You definitely did a lot more research than me (me = none), I was just looking at alternatives and thinking outside the box. I am by no means a automobile engine engineer...I stick to the jet engines, quite different!

Cheers mate!
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      08-23-2013, 12:14 PM   #29
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1) No

2) Generally lead



4) Not a chance you would get these replaced under warranty
Did an oil analysis and was told my lead levels where at 5, which per Blackstone is well within normal. Some of the levels I have seen in the oil analysis post on this forum range from 10 to 35, so I guess I am still ok.

And if my car is not modified, and I have an extended warranty that goes until 100,000 or 120,000 miles (I can't remember), why will this not be covered?

I would think the warranty company is better off covering the prematurely worn rod bearings for several thousand rather than a whole engine for $25,000...
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      08-23-2013, 12:21 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by PandaM3 View Post
Did an oil analysis and was told my lead levels where at 5, which per Blackstone is well within normal. Some of the levels I have seen in the oil analysis post on this forum range from 10 to 35, so I guess I am still ok.

And if my car is not modified, and I have an extended warranty that goes until 100,000 or 120,000 miles (I can't remember), why will this not be covered?

I would think the warranty company is better off covering the prematurely worn rod bearings for several thousand rather than a whole engine for $25,000...
Wear items are not covered (brakes, fluids, etc...) That being said, insurance has faith that BMW did the correct testing and your rod bearings shouldn't be failing at an increased rate (hasn't been proven that they are like on the S54). Therefore, they won't cover it. Obviously if a bunch of engines blow up because of this reason, then NTSB / class actions and the sorts can happen and insurance companies will get involved so they aren't dishing out $25k for this...
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      08-23-2013, 12:42 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PandaM3 View Post
Did an oil analysis and was told my lead levels where at 5, which per Blackstone is well within normal. Some of the levels I have seen in the oil analysis post on this forum range from 10 to 35, so I guess I am still ok.

And if my car is not modified, and I have an extended warranty that goes until 100,000 or 120,000 miles (I can't remember), why will this not be covered?

I would think the warranty company is better off covering the prematurely worn rod bearings for several thousand rather than a whole engine for $25,000...
Notwithstanding the near hysterical reaction to this topic on this board, there is no empirical evidence to suggest a there is a widespread issue with the rod bearings in the S65. The warranty should cover you if the engine blows, but there is no chance you will convince them there is an issue with bearings regardless of what your oil analysis may say.
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      08-23-2013, 12:50 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by regular guy View Post
All I can give you is circumstantial evidence they start life as factory bearings. Even though a company like Mahle-Clevite may make the factory bearings, the factory and aftermarket catalogs are two different things. Their aftermarket catalog doesn't list any bearings for the S65. Knowing that Clevite aftermarket catalogs can differ between localities (USA, Britain, Germany, etc.), I checked all three. I also emailed Clevite directly and got an immediate response saying that no aftermarket bearings are available for the S65. But even that wasn't enough for me, so I started looking in the Clevite bearing catalogs for other bearings that had the same size and specifications. This would make sure that there wasn't another application for the same bearing. I didn't find anything compatible. Another member mentioned that Pankl might have some compatible bearings, so I looked in their catalog also but didn't find anything. That's where I stopped looking. I didn't go as far looking at Pankl bearings as I did Clevite, but I couldn't find any compatible aftermarket bearings in either catalog.

I don't believe you can't machine them after the fact...but that's not my area of expertise.

Another person asked if you can resize the journal with the crank still in the engine. I believe there used to be a way to do this decades ago, but I'm not sure it's still in use. I wouldn't use it. I'm also not sure it would put the correct treating and surface back on the journal. Maybe kawasaki00 can chime in about this.

That's all I've got for you on it.

BTW, props to EAS for offering this service to their customers.
Resizing the crank is not something that can be done in the car. We work directly with the head clevite reps so I have a call into him about getting a set or what is available.
The pankl catalog is not that great and I also have a email to them about if they do make anything. We race parts from both manufacturers so they will give it to me straight. Good news or bad.
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      08-23-2013, 12:50 PM   #33
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Wear items are not covered (brakes, fluids, etc...) That being said, insurance has faith that BMW did the correct testing and your rod bearings shouldn't be failing at an increased rate (hasn't been proven that they are like on the S54). Therefore, they won't cover it. Obviously if a bunch of engines blow up because of this reason, then NTSB / class actions and the sorts can happen and insurance companies will get involved so they aren't dishing out $25k for this...
Well here is my warranty coverage

http://www.carmax.com/enUS/maxcare/default.html

Before buying this warranty I checked with both local indy BMW and VW/ Audi shops that are ASE certified and they all said it was very easy for them to work with Maxcare as far as getting coverage and reimbursement for repairs. My former VW/Audi mechanic even told me they had to have an engine replaced which was covered easily.

What is covered

"Gasoline Engine - Cylinder block, and all internal lubricated parts including: crank shaft, rod and main bearings, cam bearings, expansion (freeze) plugs, connecting rods, wrist pins, pistons, piston rings, camshaft, cam tower, lifters, cylinder head, valves and guides, valve springs, rocker arms (cam followers), pushrods, timing chain housing (cover), timing chain and sprockets, timing belt and pulleys, timing belt tensioner, intake and exhaust manifolds, exhaust manifold cover, flywheel, balance shafts, harmonic balancer and retainer bolt, crank shaft pulley, valve covers, idle speed control, fuel pressure regulator, barometric pressure sensor, oxygen sensor, throttle position sensor, mass air flow sensor, idle air control solenoid, oil pan, oil pump and pressure relief valve, oil cooler, oil temperature sensor, air cleaner assembly, engine oil cooler hoses, oil filter adapter/housing, engine oil sending unit, motor mounts, water pump, water temperature sensor, temperature sending unit, thermostat and housing, fuel supply pump, fuel pump control unit, fuel tank sensor, vacuum pump, vacuum control valve, vacuum switch, positive crankcase ventilation valve, dipstick and tube, seals and gaskets, fasteners for the components listed above."

Obviously I don't want to have to test out what is covered and what is not.

But curious if EAS would know of any local ASE certified indy BMW mechanics that was able to get this covered for when the time comes that I have to do this. And what steps I would have to take... ie serial oil samples that show rising lead levels? or do I have to pay to drop the oil pan and if the bearings are indeed prematurely worn then it is covered...
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      08-23-2013, 12:52 PM   #34
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Well here is my warranty coverage

http://www.carmax.com/enUS/maxcare/default.html

Before buying this warranty I checked with both local indy BMW and VW/ Audi shops that are ASE certified and they all said it was very easy for them to work with Maxcare as far as getting coverage and reimbursement for repairs. My former VW/Audi mechanic even told me they had to have an engine replaced which was covered easily.

What is covered

"Gasoline Engine - Cylinder block, and all internal lubricated parts including: crank shaft, rod and main bearings, cam bearings, expansion (freeze) plugs, connecting rods, wrist pins, pistons, piston rings, camshaft, cam tower, lifters, cylinder head, valves and guides, valve springs, rocker arms (cam followers), pushrods, timing chain housing (cover), timing chain and sprockets, timing belt and pulleys, timing belt tensioner, intake and exhaust manifolds, exhaust manifold cover, flywheel, balance shafts, harmonic balancer and retainer bolt, crank shaft pulley, valve covers, idle speed control, fuel pressure regulator, barometric pressure sensor, oxygen sensor, throttle position sensor, mass air flow sensor, idle air control solenoid, oil pan, oil pump and pressure relief valve, oil cooler, oil temperature sensor, air cleaner assembly, engine oil cooler hoses, oil filter adapter/housing, engine oil sending unit, motor mounts, water pump, water temperature sensor, temperature sending unit, thermostat and housing, fuel supply pump, fuel pump control unit, fuel tank sensor, vacuum pump, vacuum control valve, vacuum switch, positive crankcase ventilation valve, dipstick and tube, seals and gaskets, fasteners for the components listed above."

Obviously I don't want to have to test out what is covered and what is not.

But curious if EAS would know of any local ASE certified indy BMW mechanics that was able to get this covered for when the time comes that I have to do this. And what steps I would have to take... ie serial oil samples that show rising lead levels? or do I have to pay to drop the oil pan and if the bearings are indeed prematurely worn then it is covered...
Oil samples don't always tell the whole story unfortunately.
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      08-23-2013, 01:01 PM   #35
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Notwithstanding the near hysterical reaction to this topic on this board, there is no empirical evidence to suggest a there is a widespread issue with the rod bearings in the S65. The warranty should cover you if the engine blows, but there is no chance you will convince them there is an issue with bearings regardless of what your oil analysis may say.
So the cheapest route is hoping my engine blows before warranty is up, then if it doesn't blow then 5,000 to 10,000 miles before my warranty is up I should drop the oil pan and get the bearings inspected... if they look fine replace them prophylactically... if they look like the pictures in this thread then no harm in trying to file a warranty claim at that point...
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      08-23-2013, 01:22 PM   #36
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Scary...actual chunks of coating missing on #8. I hope the oil filter caught all the flakes.
Unfortunately, we did not see anything. Then again, maybe that's a good thing.

As an added precaution the oil filter was cut open and oil pan was thoroughly cleaned to ensure no particles were left behind. We also inspected the oil pump nuts, as it was a common issue backing out on S52 engines back in the day.

For those in the Southern California area, we will now be offering this service on both S65 and S85 engines.

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The pics Tom is posting is of my 2008 6MT E92 M3 Yes that would be me M3post member Shady1 . For those of you that know me and my car. I have no problem taking a long road trip in my M3. I do not track my M3 and it is not my daily driver. Most of my miles are all highway miles driving to SoCal for some mods because I don't trust the shops in the state I live in TEXAS. I make the long caravan trips to Las Vegas for the annual MFest event. I enter my M3 in a lot of car show events and meets in Texas on the weekend. Texas is not a small state so the miles add up real fast. I actually put the VF540 Supercharger on my M3 in late April of this year at 92,000 miles, (Sorry Tom I had to correct you on the miles) I drove the car to SoCal for install and back to Texas, then to MFest 7 in Las Vegas in May then I did a few car shows in Texas now I am back in SoCal again for the rod bearings. My plan was to get the rod bearings changed out as a preventive maintenance this summer because I knew I would be hitting the 100k mile mark soon over the summer. My plan was to do my 2008 M3 like M3 post member boosted M did his 2008 E92 M3. Change the rod bearings and update the Clutch to the Spec Super Twin Disk Clutch. He had 100k plus miles on his M3 and was supercharged for 80,000 miles of his 100k miles. I thought I still had a little more time than him since he was supercharged for so long before he reached 100k. Boosted M had his rod bearing done by a shop in Florida. Since I don't trust any of the shops in Texas to do my rod bearings and I don't mind or having any problems driving my M3 out of state for any mods or upgrades. I was planning a trip to Florida to get the rod bearings done until I seen Tom at EAS offer to change them out for SoCal members. Well since I just retired from the Military about 2 weeks ago after serving 23 years of service and I have the extra time plus I have family in SoCal. I trust Tom and his shop EAS to do anything I want done to my M3 since they installed mods and parts on my M3 everytime I make a trip to SoCal . I drove my 100K+ mile E92 M3 to SoCal and decided to let EAS change out my rod bearings and to be the first 100k+ mile M3 for them and to share my rod bearing findings to all the M3post members, other BMW websites, and forums. I want everyone to know how my rod bearings look like on my normal highway driven M3 that is Stealership maintained. I do not drag or track my M3. Since the rod bearing were going to be changed out I decided to upgrade my VF540 kit to the VF620 kit in the process. I am glad I had EAS change my rod bearings because as you can see I was riding on borrowed time
Mileage corrected in OP. Again, thanks to Shady1for making the trip all the way out to SoCal and being a part of this, as well as getting taken care of in time.

Have a safe trip back to Texas.

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Tom,

Thank you for posting this. When you guys replace the bearing, is it a direct swap, or are tolerances taken into account, relaxed to accept the thick tws and therefor properly clearanced?

I ask as it was already mentioned herein, the VAC bearing will be even tighter as they are coated and therefor only accelerate this problem in the future.

Also, how many hours would one expect bearing replacement to take?

Thanks!
We took our time in order to document everything, and stop for pictures along the way. Also, other work was being performed at the same time. This is not something that should be rushed..

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Originally Posted by gatorfast View Post
Interesting stuff. So aside from possibly the supercharger...what would cause this wear?
Supercharger really played no part, the wearing has likely been happening for quite some time.

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Originally Posted by TrevorM3 View Post
many questions for oP when he returns to this thread, llol.

Is cylinder 8 the most worn (if that is the correct term for whatever is on the bearing) because it's simply cylinder 8? Or all of the bearings suppose to have natural uniform wear throughout 1-8?
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Originally Posted by e92livin View Post
Bearing #8 looks rough, Why does that bearing significantly wear more then the others? What is the difference with the VAC bearings and OEM? Thanks for the useful info btw.
Good question, as #4 and #8 suffered the most damage from the rest. We'll need to see more examples before making any judgement calls.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PandaM3 View Post
1) is this mainly an issue with 2008 M3's? I read somewhere that the part number for the rod bearings where changed for 2009
2) I change my oil every 5,000 miles and send it in for analysis each time. Is it lead levels that I look at? especially if each subsequent sample shows rising levels?
3) Once changed, is this something that needs to be changed every 75,000 to 100,000 miles? So if I have 200,000 miles on the car I have to do this again? or do the new bearings correct the issue causing this?
4) I have a really good extended warranty on my car... can EAS recommend me to an ASE certified mechanic (needs to be ASE certified unless EAS knows a work around to get it covered under warranty) that can get the rod bearing replacement warranted based on my lead levels? What's the minimum cost to drop the oil pan and inspect?
5) There are so many threads regarding this... what is BMWNA's official stance on this? Will they fix this like they did the E46 M3s?
Looks like signes answered your questions already.

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Originally Posted by kawasaki00 View Post
Resizing the crank is not something that can be done in the car. We work directly with the head clevite reps so I have a call into him about getting a set or what is available.
The pankl catalog is not that great and I also have a email to them about if they do make anything. We race parts from both manufacturers so they will give it to me straight. Good news or bad.
Correct, this would involve splitting the block.
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      08-23-2013, 01:23 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by PandaM3 View Post
So the cheapest route is hoping my engine blows before warranty is up, then if it doesn't blow then 5,000 to 10,000 miles before my warranty is up I should drop the oil pan and get the bearings inspected... if they look fine replace them prophylactically... if they look like the pictures in this thread then no harm in trying to file a warranty claim at that point...
Cheapest when compared to replacing the engine. I'd call it peace of mind.
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      08-23-2013, 01:29 PM   #38
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Cheapest when compared to replacing the engine. I'd call it peace of mind.
I guess to clarify... least out of pocket is to let the engine blow while under warranty so warranty replaces engine... but once out of warranty cheapest route is to replace the rod bearings
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      08-23-2013, 01:57 PM   #39
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Well if you could talk the shop into pulling the bearings and then look at them and agree they should be replaced then could they go back and just file a claim for all the work. Understanding that if the bearings show no abnormal wear then you will be paying for the wasted time.
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      08-23-2013, 03:34 PM   #40
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I think best course of action is for me to just stop looking at any rod bearing threads.

I only have 50,000 miles on the car, it's running great, I have a warranty. I'll get the bearings looked at before the warranty goes out which is 50,000 or 70,000 miles from now from what I remember.

Maybe by then it will be so prevalent that BMWNA will have a fix or response for this issue. Or maybe if any of the big tuning or racing teams that have NDA's with BMW will expire by then and more information will come out as far as how to prevent this from happening
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      08-23-2013, 03:44 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by signes View Post
Notwithstanding the near hysterical reaction to this topic on this board, there is no empirical evidence to suggest a there is a widespread issue with the rod bearings in the S65. The warranty should cover you if the engine blows, but there is no chance you will convince them there is an issue with bearings regardless of what your oil analysis may say.
Exactly what I have been trying to say...no statistical evidence what-so-ever!

On another note,
I need a beer.
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      08-23-2013, 05:16 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by happos2 View Post
Exactly what I have been trying to say...no statistical evidence what-so-ever!

On another note,
I need a beer.
It doesn't concern you that just about every S65/85 (share the same bearings and journal sizes) motor tear down for one reason or another, has shown worn bearings, and some extremely worn?
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      08-23-2013, 05:45 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by DLSJ5 View Post
It doesn't concern you that just about every S65/85 (share the same bearings and journal sizes) motor tear down for one reason or another, has shown worn bearings, and some extremely worn?


While there may be alot of motors with the issue you just cannot assume that.

We are on the internet, everything that happens on a forum is magnified.

It's kinda like the SMG on the e46M3, before i bought mine if I googled SMG all i would get is horror stories. It was unbelievable. I still ended up buying it without a day of warranty. And that bad boy never skipped a beat. And even the new owner hasn't had any issues. Although the timing chain blew.
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      08-23-2013, 07:02 PM   #44
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Tom, can you give us the estimated cost (including bearings)?
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