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      08-20-2013, 08:55 AM   #23
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Just wanted to point out that much of your post seems to be centred around your own (slightly contradictory) opinions and experiences, with quite a lot of exaggeration thrown in too.. as such, they don't necessarily reflect the opinions of all enthusiasts, as some of us have broader minds <- don't take that as a personal attack, many seem to complain about things as though they think they are the only person who BMW should be targeting their cars at, and have a totally self centred idea of how BMW should operate as a company too - espically when they think the whole world still revolves around the US market.

Don't get me wrong, all these new models.... they're not all for me either, but I can appreciate different people have different wants and needs, and that's what BMW is servicing.

Just my two cents.


I agree on the Z4 GT3 / GTE thing though.
Totally agree. He seems to want a car that's just made for him. I too find that newer BMW's have gone soft but as I age, I really like the growth and maturity of the newer BMW's. If you like the old ones so much, why not just buy back the old ones? I sure did and I enjoy how my two BMW's are different. Same soul, different packaging.
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      08-20-2013, 09:36 AM   #24
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Easy question.

M235i debut within a month..yes or no?
No.
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      08-20-2013, 09:53 AM   #25
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No.
Really?!
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      08-20-2013, 10:23 AM   #26
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The focus is BMW is trying to do a car for the masses than also do a car for the enthusiast.

Did you notice how many more replies the M4 got compared to the i3 or i8 combined. I bet if you guys gave the i8 to the ///M division you would have the entire forum going crazy. Many of us could probably not afford the car but i can guarantee you it will be what i will be working for.

Reliability getting worst even though prices continue to rise. I Will be replacing my wife X5 with a new Lexus GX this year. I have a 2003 GX that I have not spend a dollar except for oil change with double the miles, compared to over $7K in my 08 X5 so far with 90K miles. I don't mean to sound negative but it also a concern for most owners. I do admit that none of the three ///M gave me any problems compared to the several 3 series and x5 that i have owned.

I will continue to be an ///M fan and hope to buy a new ///M6 next year so please don't take these comments in the negative just voicing my opinion.
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      08-20-2013, 10:25 AM   #27
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      08-20-2013, 10:42 AM   #28
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Really?!
Really!


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      08-20-2013, 01:33 PM   #29
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I agree on the Z4 GT3 / GTE thing though.

I was watching a video of Doug Fehan talking to Corvette owners about the BMW Z4 GTE and how the bodywork looked nothing like that of the road going car and the obvious engine issue. He stated that BMW said that they where already working on another car to replace the Z4 in the future and it would be in line with the regs.

Since BMW has already announced they plan on running the new M4 in DTM next year they could be working on a GTE spec M4 as well. Or it could be a GTE version of the i8. I hope it's the rumored BMW LMP1 prototype.
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      08-20-2013, 02:46 PM   #30
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DTM M4 has zero bearing on endurance program's outside of whether or not BMW Motorsport will fund it. The regs were stretched with the Z4 everyone knows that., the question is only really where do BMW want to focus their efforts, and how long would it take to homologate an S55, and even then, would it be more successful in a Z4 chassis, or the M4, if it were successful at all.
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      08-20-2013, 06:00 PM   #31
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Quote:
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Totally agree. He seems to want a car that's just made for him. I too find that newer BMW's have gone soft but as I age, I really like the growth and maturity of the newer BMW's. If you like the old ones so much, why not just buy back the old ones? I sure did and I enjoy how my two BMW's are different. Same soul, different packaging.
Absolutely agree. If you don't like the direction BMW is taking with their cars, look elsewhere or buy the generations you loved. BMW is placing ///M badges galore on their non M cars, and that, I don't like one bit.
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      08-20-2013, 07:07 PM   #32
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You are most welcome

Last thing I want is to bad mouth BMW and rag on them all day.

However, I do wish that BMW enthusiast owners had a more open channel with our favorite marquee. We all know people like Scott26 come here and post to give us hints here and there. We also know he works for BMW in some capacity.

But we also all wonder do they care about our desires as a community. Between these few BMW forums you have quite a huge group of loyal owners that have supported BMW through years.

The new Dodge Viper and Corvette Stingray both were designed with previous owners/loyal enthusiast input as well as design studies and marketing strategies etc.

I have been a great BMW supporter and fell in love with BMW's as a young teenager and more so as an adult owner later on. However, I do hold BMW to higher standards and some times critique it because it is my favorite marquee.

Anyways, thank you to admins and moderators to take a leap of faith and not deleting this post all together and giving another opportunity. I know I might get out of line here and there with my rants but my intentions towards this community or BMW is not of malice.


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I can't believe that they initially banned you just for asking a few questions! Thanks for stepping up to ask, it will be quite interesting to see what Scott26 reveals.
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      08-20-2013, 07:16 PM   #33
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Fill out the surveys they send!

Each time I get the "what could BMW engineering improve" question I always say "have a mechanical LSD option, bigger brakes and more cooling for track day enthusiasts".

I'd like to think my survey responses helped in some small way to bring those things to the F3X

(But despite all those survey responses I ended up with a Sport line 335 without the extra cooling or bigger brakes since it is my wife's daily driver )
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      08-20-2013, 08:01 PM   #34
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You guys seem to be right it does seems that way with recent turn of events. Most new BMW cars are there to appease to the masses rather then enthusiasts owners.

As for my buying habits. I am not above criticism myself. When I got to be of buying age the E36 and E30 M cars were a thing of past. The all new E46 and E39 were just coming out. I drove both versions and feel in love. Nothing out there drove quite like E46 or E39. So I had the pleasure of having both in the family. Then few years down the line I thought to myself lets try the highest series version in the line. It must be twice as good so up the ante to a 7 series. I can tell you from personal experience nothing in the market quiet drove like a E65 when it was first introduced. It felt like the sports car of the large size luxury car segment nothing came close for at least 2 yrs or so until the Quattroporte was released in response. I also tried E60 and found it slightly softer then E39 but nothing alarming. It still felt like it rolled out of BMW factories.

The E92 feels very much like the same. It feels a bit softer then the E46 but nothing alarming.

Problem is this time around the difference between last generation 7er, 5er, and 3er vs the new generation is a lot more alarming and not in a positive way unless all you care for is gas mileage, gizmos, and greater room.

By the way in past you did not always have to go the M route to get a super fun car. Now it seems like that is pretty much the only way. Because the regular series are more geared towards the masses.


As for 1M I had every intention to buy it even had discussions with BMW dealers but the production numbers were so limited and the prices so hiked up it soured the whole experience. Even in used market people were trying to rip you off by making thousands over what the car was sold by BMW.


If 1M or even E9x M3 sale success and demand is any indication. I would say BMW is under estimating how desirable 1M or E9x M3 was across the world. Because these were the cars that portrayed BMW essence in most pure form among the latest gen cars.1M/E9x M3 are evidence of the fact that one does not have to dull down the marquee to have huge sales success. Because you can and will still draw from other marquees without making German Toyota Camry. The sales will still climb. The point is BMW does not need to put driving dynamics in back seats in favor of efficient dynamics. 1M was case and point in this respect.


Few things I really liked back in 2010 was that BMW did invest heavily in CFRP production. I thought with light weight materials we would see the more efficient cars with even more superior driving dynamics thanks to weight loss. So far in regular series BMW cars I have yet to see this payoff any dividends. Looking forward to M3, M4, and i8 and how it will improve them.

I think cars can be made more efficient by sticking to simple light weight formula, go back to no PS, lighter cars are easy to use with no PS. The car will provide great feedback and feel. They will be faster, brake harder, corner agility higher, as well as fuel efficiency. No sacrifice of driving dynamics at the expense of efficient dynamics. Both can co-exist in this matter to provide great sports luxury cars.




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No hard feelings at all and I think it is a great discussion.

I agree with what Ezio said, the hardcore enthusiast is not really the target with BMW, and I brought up the Cayman switching to Z4 post to support that.

On a related note, I believe your purchasing pattern is part of the answer as to why BMW is not more "hardcore". You got 3er and 5er variants and not 1 series M, E86 M coupe, E36 M3 or E30 M3.
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      08-20-2013, 08:56 PM   #35
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I am not speaking for every single buyer nor every single BMW owner just those that feel like BMW is becoming more of a company that is more interested lately in making cookie cutter cars for masses. All in the name of efficient dynamics where driving dynamics takes a back seat.

I thought I made that statement very clear right off the bat. Second, this sentiment is not just limited to US market only. There are many from all markets across the world who feel similar. The hardcore 1M sales success was evident in every selling market not just America. All pointing to the fact that there are people all across the world that love BMW equally if not greater in its more pure essence.

I have nothing against BMW making cars to satisfy different market segments. But not at expense of their core models. You want to make more efficient cars do so with iclass cars or in the name of luxury line. Do not take the base models and dull them down or sport line. You can numb down the luxury line for those wanting soft core.

It is common sense no pun intended. You do not go to Ferrari to buy a fuel efficient economy car. Because that is not what that marquee is about. If they all of a sudden cater to that market segment by diluting their core cars. It would be sort of strange and you will have folks that will strongly disagree. Now if Ferrari starts a sub brand for this purpose then it is a different story.

Bottom line is there are plenty of cars makers that already cater to cookie cutter crowd. The car marquees like Ferrari, Lambo, Lotus, BMW, Aston, and Porsche cater to certain group and that is what makes them unique among a multitude of manufacturers.




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Just wanted to point out that much of your post seems to be centred around your own (slightly contradictory) opinions and experiences, with quite a lot of exaggeration thrown in too.. as such, they don't necessarily reflect the opinions of all enthusiasts, as some of us have broader minds <- don't take that as a personal attack, many seem to complain about things as though they think they are the only person who BMW should be targeting their cars at, and have a totally self centred idea of how BMW should operate as a company too - espically when they think the whole world still revolves around the US market.

Don't get me wrong, all these new models.... they're not all for me either, but I can appreciate different people have different wants and needs, and that's what BMW is servicing.

Just my two cents.

I agree on the Z4 GT3 / GTE thing though.
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      08-20-2013, 09:20 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Matski View Post
DTM M4 has zero bearing on endurance program's outside of whether or not BMW Motorsport will fund it. The regs were stretched with the Z4 everyone knows that., the question is only really where do BMW want to focus their efforts, and how long would it take to homologate an S55, and even then, would it be more successful in a Z4 chassis, or the M4, if it were successful at all.
Yeah, lets see if they man up and try to run a turbo-6 in ALMS.

They believe in an all turbo lineup in the showroom, then prove its worthiness on the track.
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      08-20-2013, 09:26 PM   #37
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Bottom line is there are plenty of cars makers that already cater to cookie cutter crowd. The cars marquees like Ferrari, Lambo, Lotus, BMW, Aston, and Porsche cater to certain group and that is what makes them unique among a multitude of manufacturers.
They should make the M2 normally aspirated, back to basics high revving inline 6. Somewhat of an evolution of a S54.

One more trackable BMW for the track junkies.

I would pay more for no turbos in the M2...actually. As long as it gets the full M-treatment as well.
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      08-20-2013, 09:40 PM   #38
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I think this is where you are mistaken and taking things out of context.

There are plenty of us who don't like the new EPS steering setup and its inherent lack of feed and feel back, more soft core suspension tuning, piped in prerecorded engine noises, cheaper and harder plastic use in interior etc...

As for your statement "if I like the old one, why not just buy the old one".

My reply is are you serious because that is a bit ridiculous. Since when did BMW sell brand new old generation cars.

Second, " if one likes a gizmo filled, fuel efficient, soft core luxury car, why not just go buy it from some other manufacturer".

May I suggest Tesla, Lexus, and host of others. Why come to BMW for a diluted version.


Even you admit that BMW cars have gone soft core. Since you are getting older you like it. Since not all of us have aged yet to like soft core cars. May we stick to one of the more harder core of the luxury sports marquess like BMW and folks that are starting to like soft core try the more traditional soft core luxury car makers.

As for buying older cars. I have no problem with that. However, I am not here discussing the ability to buy used cars. But rather brand new cars that are improved upon versions of the last gen cars made by my favorite marquee. For example take 458 Italia and how it improved upon F430 without becoming less then in any category. Now could this not have been done with newer generation 3 series, 5 series, 7 series, and Z4. The 458 Italia is not soft core by any stretch of imagination compared to F430 this can be duplicated and is a home run.

I hope it clarifies things that many of us are looking for improved driving dynamics in brand new cars from our favorite marquee via greater technology advances.

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Totally agree. He seems to want a car that's just made for him. I too find that newer BMW's have gone soft but as I age, I really like the growth and maturity of the newer BMW's. If you like the old ones so much, why not just buy back the old ones? I sure did and I enjoy how my two BMW's are different. Same soul, different packaging.
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      08-20-2013, 11:37 PM   #39
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Did you notice how many more replies the M4 got compared to the i3 or i8 combined. I bet if you guys gave the i8 to the ///M division you would have the entire forum going crazy. Many of us could probably not afford the car but i can guarantee you it will be what i will be working for.
Not even the M-division could make the i8 attractive.

The i-series is like Ted airlines or Song. It's a sub-brand that doesn't need to exist. Just offer a better product using the same technologies (that are currently going into the i-series) without the marketing baggage of a whole new line of cars.
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      08-21-2013, 05:33 AM   #40
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Yeah, lets see if they man up and try to run a turbo-6 in ALMS.

They believe in an all turbo lineup in the showroom, then prove its worthiness on the track.
The Alpina B6 did alright with it's Turbo'd V8 in the Blancpain Endurance series, and IIRC there were some concerns about reliability before that was unleashed.

I'm sure BMW could make it work, just a question of will they, when there might be easier options, It all depends how much BMW can stretch the homologation rules.
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      08-21-2013, 10:35 AM   #41
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The Alpina B6 did alright with it's Turbo'd V8 in the Blancpain Endurance series, and IIRC there were some concerns about reliability before that was unleashed.

I'm sure BMW could make it work, just a question of will they, when there might be easier options, It all depends how much BMW can stretch the homologation rules.
Make it work and winning is a whole different thing.

They will still be going up against competition that are staying with big V8's. One thing for sure, NA engines are much more reliable for endurance racing.

My guess is they need some help from rules book to even the playing field.
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      08-21-2013, 10:38 AM   #42
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Kayani, in general I share much of your sentiment; one thing we need to understand is that as a global corporation, BMW needs to appease shareholders and make money. But that's not a necessarily bad thing in and of itself. BMW is going through a transition to expand its offerings in attempt to have a leading vehicle in every imaginable customer segment, including the one you are in. So along with the high volume, softer vehicles that my parents drive (and enjoy), BMW is developing, and will always develop vehicles catered to hardcore driving enthusiasts - "pure driving pleasure" is part of the brand philosophy, there's a history of that...plus they know that an important aspect of having a successful halo performance car with clout is that it will also help trickle sales, technologies, and spirit down to the rest of the fleet. For example, the M4 - it's going to be a beast, guaranteed (if you have the money for it). And for a smaller, lighter, simpler, less expensive ride, there is the upcoming M2 which should carry forward the essence of the 1M, and then there's the upcoming 235/M235i and maybe 335is/435is which would be good if they keep the weight down and are able to address your other concerns.

I hope any backward moves regarding steering feel, increasing weight, piped in engine sound, turbo power delivery, etc. for the hardcore driver are being worked out in this transition and we'll begin to see improvements on those fronts as they work out better solutions to integrate new efficiency and safety standards with the pure driving experience we crave. And your concern about hard plastics are well founded - hopefully they'll find a more attractive, inexpensive alternative. On the suspension front, having a comfortable setup should be the default on the lowest models IMO, and providing sportier options such as sport suspension or DHP is totally fine with me.

But in general, I agree that with the 1M, M3 and 335is recently being out of production, at least in the US, there are no current offerings that serve the hardcore market except for maybe the 135/135is, Z4is (and maybe a couple others). I do believe BMW's got your back going forward but we'll see.
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      08-21-2013, 11:05 AM   #43
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corporation, BMW needs to appease shareholders and make money.
This is a very short term view that has demonstrably destroyed many corporations in the past. Especially when the strategy relies on juicing customers from every penny and returning the least possible value for the money in order to increase immediate profit above all else*.

Not saying BMW is engaged in this, but is sure looks like it in some aspect (interior materials is not what it used to be, the 320d->328d renaming on US market, etc).

BMW can enjoy high profit margins because it has a powerful brand image, build on iconic sport sedan models. Now if they make overpriced FWD minivans, they will make money today, but they are actively degrading the brand image, and risk not being as profitable in the next decade, when only soccer moms will get exited by the idea of a BMW.

* I'm not trying to steer a shitstorm political debate, read this article if you are interested in more rationale as to where this statement comes http://www.forbes.com/sites/steveden...lton-friedman/. If you disagree, fair enough, at least you may had think twice on this very common preconception that nobody usually even question, which is always good.
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      08-21-2013, 01:13 PM   #44
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* I'm not trying to steer a shitstorm political debate, read this article if you are interested in more rationale as to where this statement comes http://www.forbes.com/sites/steveden...lton-friedman/. If you disagree, fair enough, at least you may had think twice on this very common preconception that nobody usually even question, which is always good.
Great article...thank you for sharing.
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