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      08-07-2013, 10:31 AM   #1
MaxL
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Strange tire wear causes?

I decided to give Michelin PSS a try for tracking. I found them pretty good in general - great traction (for this class of tire), no melting like PS2, ok feel. The only things I did not like were lack of confidence under braking (car shaking side to side a bit) and squeal - much louder than AD08, for example.

Anyway, last track weekend I had to cut it short because the driver's front tire wore from about 30% thread to cording and chunking in 4 sessions on the outside shoulder. Now before you say I was turning in too abruptly and understeering, the rear one went from over 50% thread to no thread (but not close to cording) on the outside shoulder as well. I'm also running about -2.5 camber at the front and -1.6 at the rear, which worked well for AD08s.

I was running 39 PSI hot to prevent rolling. I normally ran 36.5-37 with AD08, but with PSS I saw increased shoulder wear and upped pressures a bit. It did not help, and maybe made it worse.

So what did I do wrong? Pressures, camber, driving, or just wrong tires for the job? I realize it's tough to say definitively, but worth having a discussion.

The first photo below is driver's front and the second is driver's rear (that went from over 50% thread!). Both have about 50% or more thread left in the middle...

I'm also not sure what to do - replace just one tire or all of them. On the one hand, all of the tires have more than 50% of thread in the middle. But on the other, driver's side rear has almost no thread on the shoulder. But the shoulder is not even touching the ground during street driving and I did not get that much shoulder wear tat the rear on other tracks, so replacing just one tire may get me through 2-3 track weekends, if not more...
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      08-07-2013, 11:25 AM   #2
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I would go back to a tire better suited for the track - AD08's
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      08-07-2013, 11:57 AM   #3
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Pretty normal wear for the PSS. The outside compound is stickier than the inside which allows the tire to have the higher treadwear but maintain cornering grip. Michelin also has soft sidewalls so the tires roll a lot under cornering. Not much you can do other than get a more track-ready tire.

As for why the one tire got more wear than the other, look at the layout of the track. Most track have more of one kind of turn than another. In your case it looks like there's more right turns than left turns which wear the driver side front outside faster than the other tires.
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      08-07-2013, 06:23 PM   #4
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-1.5 deg rear camber is probably not enough for track duty. Try -2.0.

-2.5 deg front camber is probably as much as you should go as a dual-purpose car... too much camber and it will wear out your insides very quickly.

PSS is more of a street sport tire than a track tire. AD08 is much better suited for track duty.
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      08-08-2013, 07:21 AM   #5
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As others have stated, the PSS is not a great dry track tire. They are great on a wet track, but in the dry, the softer outer edge compound overheats and will melt/chunk away.
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      08-08-2013, 09:34 AM   #6
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I got it - wrong tire :-). I was wondering maybe I could do something to make them last a bit better because they are practically new on the insides. Does 39 hot sound like a good pressure for these?

But anyway, I realized at lest one mistake I made - I assumed these were directional and did not flip them right to left, which would have helped a lot. Anyway, I'll replace the front left tire, which is done, and move right rear to left rear - left rear is looking almost new. So I will have two almost new tires on the driver's side (which gets all the beating in the tracks I frequent) and more worn on passenger side, but those spend more time suspended in the air then on the ground

I will replace them with track tires once they are done - it just did not make sense to have track tires at the time because the car was mostly driven on the street with very few track days. But the end result is that I got about 1/2 of track days I get from AD08s.

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      08-08-2013, 09:41 AM   #7
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What are your toe settings?
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      08-08-2013, 10:53 AM   #8
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0 or slight negative at the front and stock spec at the rear. But when this extreme outside shoulder wear happens, AFAIK toe should not matter that much for tire wear because the inside front is practically in the air (or really in the air), so the car is riding on one front tire anyway. IMHO toe is more important for inside shoulder wear.
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      08-08-2013, 11:13 AM   #9
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Not entirely correct. Toe comes into play when you're braking in heavy braking zones at the end of the straights, and if you have more than your share of toe-in the front outside edge will wear very fast.

The wear pattern on the tire indicates either a lack of camber or too much toe-in up front. If you have 2.5 of camber up front, then that leaves toe as the other suspect. However, you mentioned near ZERO toe, that would mean that you SHOULD get some toe-out rather than toe-in as you brake.

Do you daily on these tires, and if you do, how many miles? The fact that there seems to be a smooth band on top of the typical track tire wear near the outside shoulder suggest that the majority of the outside shoulder wear may have come from street use, which is also accelerated with toe-in up front.
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      08-08-2013, 04:10 PM   #10
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Not entirely correct. Toe comes into play when you're braking in heavy braking zones at the end of the straights, and if you have more than your share of toe-in the front outside edge will wear very fast.

The wear pattern on the tire indicates either a lack of camber or too much toe-in up front. If you have 2.5 of camber up front, then that leaves toe as the other suspect. However, you mentioned near ZERO toe, that would mean that you SHOULD get some toe-out rather than toe-in as you brake.

Do you daily on these tires, and if you do, how many miles? The fact that there seems to be a smooth band on top of the typical track tire wear near the outside shoulder suggest that the majority of the outside shoulder wear may have come from street use, which is also accelerated with toe-in up front.
I daily, but very little, and about 1/3 of that wear happened in just one track day, especially on the rear tile (the one without chunking). I guess it's the duality of the compound on these tires and very abrasive track (Calabogie).

Anyway, I replaced the chunked tire, flipped rears around, and will just finish this set off. Then will buy a set of AD08R or something similar, because the car will not see much street driving starting next month. Will also do alignment just in case, but only after the car is shipped to SF because I'm worried that it may go out of alignment during shipping.
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      08-08-2013, 04:12 PM   #11
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PSS is perfect for the street but I wouldn't track them.
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      08-08-2013, 04:13 PM   #12
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In terms of wear, the AD08 is pretty good. I used to run these on my daily driver/ocassional track car. I got a good 15,000 miles and 3-4 track days out of them and went through 2 sets because I liked it a lot. At $1000 for a set, its not too bad.

The PSS is only better in that it lasts longer in normal street driving which is more economical if you don't track.
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      08-08-2013, 09:15 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxL View Post
I daily, but very little, and about 1/3 of that wear happened in just one track day, especially on the rear tile (the one without chunking). I guess it's the duality of the compound on these tires and very abrasive track (Calabogie).

Anyway, I replaced the chunked tire, flipped rears around, and will just finish this set off. Then will buy a set of AD08R or something similar, because the car will not see much street driving starting next month. Will also do alignment just in case, but only after the car is shipped to SF because I'm worried that it may go out of alignment during shipping.
There, you just said it. CMP is a killer for tires. I have corded tires many times there. PSS will just not hold up on that track.
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      08-09-2013, 09:46 AM   #14
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I would say save yourself the hassle buy a set of tires (before your next track day) that will hold up on the track. You are going to cord these PSS in the next half day. Now you might be able to use the remaining three for daily driving if there is enough tread left.
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      08-10-2013, 11:28 PM   #15
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Lower the pressure. I had problems with my super sports, related it to not checking on my pressures. Ever since then I've been fine with using them at the track. Have had RS3s done in 2-3 events and super sports have lasted me longer while not being as grippy/confidence inspiring
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      08-11-2013, 05:18 PM   #16
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Lower the pressure. I had problems with my super sports, related it to not checking on my pressures. Ever since then I've been fine with using them at the track. Have had RS3s done in 2-3 events and super sports have lasted me longer while not being as grippy/confidence inspiring
What pressures are you running?
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      08-16-2013, 10:08 AM   #17
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Here's my story, OP. I have very similar wear issues like yourself. I stared out in 2008 with just All season General exclaim UHP. They chunked slightly, but I was able to get a full life out of them learning at just the autobahn country club. I was a novice back then, and the car was basically stock, with no oil cooler! I got 30K miles and several track days on the general exclaims. On my next tires, I was more of an intermediate, and I had started to slowly mod the car. I ordered General exclaims again, but got General G-max AS03s which were the replacement tires for the exclaims. I bought then because I didn't know much about tires back then, had a decent learning experience with the exlaims, also because General put in a lot of BS-marketing about how the AS03s were trackable. I took these new tires to gingerman (Tire Killer), and Mid america motorplex. They were chunk-chorded out, after that! So 5K miles and about 3 track days.

I then tried Nitto NT05. Keep in mind I'm on stock alignment (-.4 camber driver side, -.7 camber passenger side), even till today. The nittos handled the outside shoulder heat you are experiencing much much better. My lap times also improved on this tire by 6 seconds. Can't say enough about these tires. Cheap rice tires that ball out on the track. Nitto NT05s come with 7/32nd thread depth, which is also part of the reason why they handle extreme outside heat well. IMHO, tires like PSS, which are in the same performance category- Max performance summer, should be ordered shaved down to at least 7/32nd for track use. This is also why you chucked them OP, besides alignment. After about a year with 6 track days, and maybe 14K miles, the Nittos were done.

I then picked up Michelin Pilot Sport Cups. Can't say enough about these tires. They gave me 4-5 seconds coming from the Nittos, and they also handled the outside shoulder tire heat well, just like the nittos. They come with 6/32nds thread depth, and are streetable R compounds. I've done a lot of researching about tires, in different forums, and Got the ideas for my last two tires from the corvette forums. Those guys are in love with the Nitto NT05s. This forum is in love with Yokohama AD08, and Hankook RS-3. I bought 6 Yokohama AD08s from this forum, thinking I would run then next after the MPSCs. Because of the really nice experience I'm having with the MPSCs, I'm currently thinking about offloading the Yokos for more MPSCs, and sort of street/track those, with the downside being mileage. The Yokos though seem to handle outside heat decently, but I did see some mild chuncking on my buddies fronts which were at like 5-6/32nds (-1.7 camber up front). This alarmed me, and is currently fueling my decision to take a blow to the nads, and stomach the cost of always running MPSCs.

Anyone else have any further input? Does anyone have any data on the lap time difference between AD08s, and MPSCs? I'm guessing a full second on like a 3-4 mile road course, but that is pure speculation at this point. It appears RS-3's are .5 second off MPSCs, but this is data from the porsche forums At Autobahn Country Club south which is 2 miles.
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      08-16-2013, 06:06 PM   #18
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Quote:
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I got it - wrong tire :-). I was wondering maybe I could do something to make them last a bit better because they are practically new on the insides. Does 39 hot sound like a good pressure for these?
During the summer heat, I would lower that pressure.
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      08-16-2013, 06:07 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nkadisha View Post
Lower the pressure. I had problems with my super sports, related it to not checking on my pressures. Ever since then I've been fine with using them at the track. Have had RS3s done in 2-3 events and super sports have lasted me longer while not being as grippy/confidence inspiring
Same here, earlier in my tracking journey. Corded & chunked them...
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      08-16-2013, 08:30 PM   #20
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During the summer heat, I would lower that pressure.
Not sure if you would call high 60s summer heat by SoCal standards.

Anyway, there is a continuation to that story. I ran 3 of the same tires (rears flipped side to side, one chunked front replaced with a new one) on Mosport - a high-speed sweeper track. Tried to keep the pressure at 38 hot, so about 1 PSI lower. After 6 a bit longer sessions the wear was completely normal. So it's either abrasiveness of Calabogie, or something was off with my pressure meter that day - I was running longer sessions in same temperature and got much much less tire wear this time, which was also pretty even.

The bad news is that the groves on my brake disks are gone now - I guess that's a sign I need new ones :-)
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