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      09-06-2013, 11:02 AM   #45
KingOfJericho
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I'm skeptical that any sort of battery replacement can be economical, or that it will really be equitable for the consumer. These batteries are a massive chunk of the cost of the car and they have a certain shelf and use life to them. They degrade in capacity, and there is no immediate engineering solution to that problem.

Is there a guarantee that when someone wants to sell their 2014 Telsa in 2020 that the used car buyer will have a decent battery? What is the guaranteed minimum capacity at that point? Exactly how far, legally speaking, is Tesla sticking their neck out on that? I've see the videos of them swapping batteries in 90 seconds, but how do I know the battery I get is good? What if I don't like the battery I got, or if it seems its capacity sucks, and I'm trying to sell the car? I guess they have announced some sort of trade-in deal, but I'm still a bit wary I guess.

I think the car looks great, and I'd be excited to own one at some point. I'm am hopeful as well. It's just hard to ignore the long term life issues with even the best li-ion batteries.
You should read up on the swap. You're required to pick up your original battery, otherwise you would pay a prorated fee based on the life left of your original battery should you decide to keep the swap battery.
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      09-06-2013, 11:05 AM   #46
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Simply not true. The company is amazingly profitable.
Amazingly profitable? They posted their first quarterly profit in May of $11mil, after selling ~$60 million in carbon credits, not to mention a $7,500 gov't subsidy on each model sold... That's not what I would call amazingly profitable, that's called getting a lot of help. Over time, sure they'll make healthy profits, but it's hard to say they would've even survived this long without a favorable environment to sell their product in.
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      09-06-2013, 11:54 AM   #47
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Still the best looking sedan under $70K (base model)

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Amazingly profitable? They posted their first quarterly profit in May of $11mil, after selling ~$60 million in carbon credits, not to mention a $7,500 gov't subsidy on each model sold... That's not what I would call amazingly profitable, that's called getting a lot of help. Over time, sure they'll make healthy profits, but it's hard to say they would've even survived this long without a favorable environment to sell their product in.
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      09-06-2013, 01:03 PM   #48
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Still the best looking sedan under $70K (base model)
I don't disagree with that, I think it's a fantastic product and would love to have one myself. All I'm saying is don't expect a $30k Tesla anytime soon.
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      09-06-2013, 01:33 PM   #49
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You're completely forgetting about the battery swap program that will solve most of the above, however I will address what you wrote...

A supercharging station is just that, a supercharging station. I don't understand how it becomes smoke and mirrors because it doesn't also come with a secret highway network. Also, are you forgetting that stop and go traffic (read: lots of braking) will allow for more power regeneration through additional braking? I drive by the Darien supercharging stations every day. They are NEVER full. In fact, I've only seen a car parked at any of them one time in the three months that the station has been there and I see several of these cars each day. They are also smart enough to realize that expansion may be necessary at some point.

I think you're missing the point of the car. If you're a salesperson with a 500mi coverage area, this car does not make sense for you. It's geared more toward the daily commuter who will be charging every night or every few nights at their home. These cars have become very popular in my area because they make sense for that demographic. I commute 12mi each way to work and yesterday I saw three on the way in.
I drive 160 miles a day and would consider one as a commuter if the total operating cost is near that of a gas/diesel powered car. You see empty charging stations now, but what about 5 years from now? My point is the supercharging stations only allow extended range travel between major cities on major highways systems. If you live in Iowa and want to go 300 miles north there will be no charging stations along a non-major thoroughfare route.

If you want to sit in stop and go traffic while driving from DC to NYC than fine, but most people try to avoid traffic. And besides, stop and go traffic is a net energy loss not a net sum gain from braking regeneration. The Tesla right now is great for the demographic that have short-mileage commutes, have a secondary ICE-powered (internal combustion engine) range unlimited vehicle, and are wealthy enough to own several cars, one of which is a $80K Tesla.

It's a great car no doubt about it, an engineering jewel as it were, but it nowhere near competes with ICE-powered cars in cost of ownership and freedom of range. if I had a 12-mile commute and could only afford one car, a Chevy Volt would be my choice; it will run electric for the entire 12-mile commute and have a 380-mile total range, and can be filled up with gasoline in 90 seconds and go another 340 miles (at 38 MPG).
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      09-06-2013, 01:59 PM   #50
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You should read up on the swap. You're required to pick up your original battery, otherwise you would pay a prorated fee based on the life left of your original battery should you decide to keep the swap battery.
A replacement battery is $8,000 to $10,000. Tesla has a pre-payment plan for a replacement battery so you can get a new battery after the battery warranty expires (per thier website). The prorated fee will be costly because Tesla will have to recover the cost of the battery either way. So for discussion purposes... if you were to leave your original battery with say 60,000 miles on it, the pro-rated cost of the new battery would be $5,000 (assuming a 120,000-mile battery lifespan). There's no way around the cost of the battery. Considering the 90-second battery swap is charged to a credit card, if you don't come back for your original battery, get ready for a big charge on you next month's credit card bill.
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      09-06-2013, 02:15 PM   #51
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True, Volt is a good alternative, but with only one problem... it looks like sh!t (compared to Tesla S).

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... if I had a 12-mile commute and could only afford one car, a Chevy Volt would be my choice; it will run electric for the entire 12-mile commute and have a 380-mile total range, and can be filled up with gasoline in 90 seconds and go another 340 miles (at 38 MPG).
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      09-06-2013, 03:35 PM   #52
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A replacement battery is $8,000 to $10,000. Tesla has a pre-payment plan for a replacement battery so you can get a new battery after the battery warranty expires (per thier website). The prorated fee will be costly because Tesla will have to recover the cost of the battery either way. So for discussion purposes... if you were to leave your original battery with say 60,000 miles on it, the pro-rated cost of the new battery would be $5,000 (assuming a 120,000-mile battery lifespan). There's no way around the cost of the battery. Considering the 90-second battery swap is charged to a credit card, if you don't come back for your original battery, get ready for a big charge on you next month's credit card bill.
As I said, do some reading on the program. If you can not pick up your original battery, it can be delivered back to your home and replaced there. It's also not prorated based on the cost of a brand new battery, rather the difference in life between the two and it is not necessarily tied to the full replacement cost of the battery unit.
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      09-06-2013, 03:43 PM   #53
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I drive 160 miles a day and would consider one as a commuter if the total operating cost is near that of a gas/diesel powered car. You see empty charging stations now, but what about 5 years from now? My point is the supercharging stations only allow extended range travel between major cities on major highways systems. If you live in Iowa and want to go 300 miles north there will be no charging stations along a non-major thoroughfare route.

If you want to sit in stop and go traffic while driving from DC to NYC than fine, but most people try to avoid traffic. And besides, stop and go traffic is a net energy loss not a net sum gain from braking regeneration. The Tesla right now is great for the demographic that have short-mileage commutes, have a secondary ICE-powered (internal combustion engine) range unlimited vehicle, and are wealthy enough to own several cars, one of which is a $80K Tesla.

It's a great car no doubt about it, an engineering jewel as it were, but it nowhere near competes with ICE-powered cars in cost of ownership and freedom of range. if I had a 12-mile commute and could only afford one car, a Chevy Volt would be my choice; it will run electric for the entire 12-mile commute and have a 380-mile total range, and can be filled up with gasoline in 90 seconds and go another 340 miles (at 38 MPG).
You keep dwelling on the things it is not designed to excel at. If you live in rural Iowa and want to take a long trip on secondary roads, it just ain't the right car for you. I also know that you don't get something for nothing in terms of energy regeneration, I was just trying to figure out what you were trying to say with regard to the lack of an alternative route and it's connection to the supercharging stations.

It is not designed to compete with ICE cars in freedom of range so it's pointless to bring up. If you could only afford one car and it was a Chevy Volt, you were not a potential Tesla customer in the first place. One is also a design abortion and the other is a gorgeous supermodel of a sedan.
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      09-06-2013, 03:55 PM   #54
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True, Volt is a good alternative, but with only one problem... it looks like sh!t (compared to Tesla S).
It does not look like crap compared to the Tesla. It looks like crap easily on its own.

And I own one too but did not get it for its looks but rather my commute. I average 20 - 30 miles per day and have gone months without burning any fuel in it.

I did drive the M3 today though.
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      09-06-2013, 05:11 PM   #55
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As I said, do some reading on the program. If you can not pick up your original battery, it can be delivered back to your home and replaced there. It's also not prorated based on the cost of a brand new battery, rather the difference in life between the two and it is not necessarily tied to the full replacement cost of the battery unit.
I will, but as of the past two weeks, the Tesla website only had the Elon Musk video of the battery replacement vs. the Audi A6 re-fuling. No details of cost or protation, etc. I will however say that I've read on the net from other posts that the cost to "refill" the car is $40 - $60 for a maximum range of 300 miles.
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      09-06-2013, 05:26 PM   #56
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You keep dwelling on the things it is not designed to excel at. If you live in rural Iowa and want to take a long trip on secondary roads, it just ain't the right car for you. I also know that you don't get something for nothing in terms of energy regeneration, I was just trying to figure out what you were trying to say with regard to the lack of an alternative route and it's connection to the supercharging stations.

It is not designed to compete with ICE cars in freedom of range so it's pointless to bring up. If you could only afford one car and it was a Chevy Volt, you were not a potential Tesla customer in the first place. One is also a design abortion and the other is a gorgeous supermodel of a sedan.
Well okay, so it's a great car if you expect it to cost an arm and a leg more to operate (total lifetime operating cost) and have a limited driving environment where you can only drive it around town and on designated freeways where the supercharging stations are. Sorry, but that's not a real car then. And what do you mean "it's not designed to compete with ICE cars freedom of range"? That's like saying a bucket of ice cubes is not designed to cool your house down. It is totally on point to bring it up. It's an AUTOMOBILE. So should we now not compare parallel hybrids against series hybrids? And comparing utility of running electric and total range, one is absolutely a potential Tesla customer. If the average commute is 40 miles a day (national average) then both the Tesla and Volt meet that requirement; if one only wants one car and occasionally needs a car that can drive on non-predetermined routes where only specialized fueling station are over 300 miles (max range) then the Volt is the better car.

I didn't say "rural" Iowa. I said Iowa. You can drive hundreds of miles in Iowa not on freeways. What I meant by driving the back way to New York from DC is if you did not want to sit in a traffic jam most of the way there, you can go off interstate. The issue is the supercharging stations are ONLY on the interstate where all the traffic is.

And now to diss on the volt, all you can say is you think it is ugly and the Tesla is not. Nice argument there... Oh she likes me and is a millionaire, but she's ugly...

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      09-06-2013, 05:35 PM   #57
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It does not look like crap compared to the Tesla. It looks like crap easily on its own.

And I own one too but did not get it for its looks but rather my commute. I average 20 - 30 miles per day and have gone months without burning any fuel in it.

I did drive the M3 today though.
So did a whole bunch of Prius owners too.

I think the Volt is pretty good looking. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder...
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      09-06-2013, 06:05 PM   #58
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So did a whole bunch of Prius owners too.

I think the Volt is pretty good looking. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder...
I think the front view is fine. Even 3/4 front. I just don't like the rear end.

However, it has great cargo capacity.

I actually enjoy driving it more than the M3 for my daily commute. It is silent and smooth and somewhat lively at slower speeds. When in traffic, on my 6 mile drive from the office to home, I feel restrained with the M3. In the Volt, I just go with the flow.
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      09-06-2013, 06:19 PM   #59
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I will however say that I've read on the net from other posts that the cost to "refill" the car is $40 - $60 for a maximum range of 300 miles.
I apologize in advance if I read this incorrectly.

Are you saying that people are stating they are paying around $50 to fully recharge their Tesla S? They must have some significant kWh rate. I believe the battery is rated at 85 kWh and with some overhead, say 90 kWh to recharge. That would be $0.55 per kWh.

I pay $0.085 per kWh so a full charge costs me less than one dollar for nearly 40 miles electric only range in the Volt. I do charge at the office so normally all I pay at home is about 1.5 kWh to drive home, so a little over 12 cents to drive around 30 miles in a day, Significantly less than the $8 I would have spent in the M3.

As an aside and more related to BMW with the i8. It seems that some of the technology used is taking a page from the GM playbook,
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      09-06-2013, 06:32 PM   #60
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Amazingly profitable? They posted their first quarterly profit in May of $11mil, after selling ~$60 million in carbon credits, not to mention a $7,500 gov't subsidy on each model sold... That's not what I would call amazingly profitable, that's called getting a lot of help. Over time, sure they'll make healthy profits, but it's hard to say they would've even survived this long without a favorable environment to sell their product in.
Got it. Keep thinking they are not profitable and a bad business. Well come back and check this exact thread in 1 year. Until then I am buying shares at $166.00.
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      09-06-2013, 07:13 PM   #61
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Holy moly at that black one on page 2; what a BEAUTIFUL car....

Saw a red one in traffic today. I live in Tampa Bay, and am seeing more and more Model Ss as the months go on.
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      09-06-2013, 08:21 PM   #62
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I apologize in advance if I read this incorrectly.

Are you saying that people are stating they are paying around $50 to fully recharge their Tesla S? They must have some significant kWh rate. I believe the battery is rated at 85 kWh and with some overhead, say 90 kWh to recharge. That would be $0.55 per kWh.

I pay $0.085 per kWh so a full charge costs me less than one dollar for nearly 40 miles electric only range in the Volt. I do charge at the office so normally all I pay at home is about 1.5 kWh to drive home, so a little over 12 cents to drive around 30 miles in a day, Significantly less than the $8 I would have spent in the M3.

As an aside and more related to BMW with the i8. It seems that some of the technology used is taking a page from the GM playbook,
It was not clear what I wrote. The topic of the post was the Tesla 90-second battery swap out, which costs $40 - $50 per swap for a fully charged battery. I was not discussing home charging.

How do you like your Volt anyway? I test drove a 2012 model and thought it was fantastic. If I had a commute that the car was intended for I'd get one in a heartbeat.
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      09-06-2013, 10:26 PM   #63
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How do you like your Volt anyway? I test drove a 2012 model and thought it was fantastic. If I had a commute that the car was intended for I'd get one in a heartbeat.
Wait a minute... The Tesla S is intended for the shorter regular commute consumers but you poo poo it for not having longer range capabilities but you afford the Volt the luxury of being used for only it's intended use? It doesn't sound like you're giving the Tesla a air shot at all.

Also, I would love to know what alternative routes you know of between DC and NYC where traffic is not an issue...
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      09-06-2013, 11:32 PM   #64
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Haven't done any monitor lately or Autocross because it's been hot and stormy all enough time. I did do a brief take on a C63 AMG and we could not capture me. I was stunned and wonder all about.

Please make suggestions and visit:
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      09-07-2013, 06:57 AM   #65
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Wait a minute... The Tesla S is intended for the shorter regular commute consumers but you poo poo it for not having longer range capabilities but you afford the Volt the luxury of being used for only it's intended use? It doesn't sound like you're giving the Tesla a air shot at all.

Also, I would love to know what alternative routes you know of between DC and NYC where traffic is not an issue...
The difference is the Volt's intended use is to replace a gas-only car with a extended-range electric car; both vehicles are range-unlimited. The Tesla is meant to replace a gas-only car with an electric-only car and is range-limited.

I'll 'splain my comment about my commute to you. I drive 160 to 170 miles a day, round trip to work (there's a 10 mile difference depending which route I take). The Volt has a electric-only range of about 40 miles, which is half of my one-way commute. So my trip would be 40 miles electric and 40 miles gas (just over a gallon) per one way trip. Assuming I could charge the car at work I can then drive home at 40 miles electric and 40 miles gas. However, right now I can't charge at work because there is no 240V charging station in our building; I could use a 120V plug in the garage for the 8 hours or so it takes to recharge the Volt, but there is no way to meter it directly and pay back the building owner. I've asked our company's HR department to see if I could arrange some sort of payment system with the building owner, but haven't pursued it since then (about 10 months ago). Not charging at work makes the Volt even less cost-efficient for my commute.

The Volt's most cost-efficient use pattern (i.e. intended use) is to use it mostly in electric-only mode and occasionally use it in gas mode (this helps offset the initial high cost of the car as compared to other compact sedans of the same interior size - i.e. a Honda Civic, or a Chevy Cruze). When you start using the Volt in the drive pattern I described above, the cost efficiency goes down (but the use capability doesn't); and on a comparative cost-basis, other cars (such as the Civic or Cruze) are more cost effective to use in my 160 mile daily trip. Cost comparative basis meaning a monthly cost to operate the car which includes car payment, fuel, and maintenance. The Civic and Cruze (just used here as examples for discussion) purchase prices are a lot lower than the Volt, which is why on a more-gas-intensive-use of the Volt, the Civic and Cruze are less expensive to use. The savings by use of electricity as the fuel in the Volt (because it is less expensive than gasoline per mile), offsets the price differential of the Volt. This changing for the better though as GM has reduced the Volt's price by $5K recently.

Now to wrap this back to the Tesla S... The Tesla S is convenience range-limited, whereas the Volt is not; that's the difference. Meaning as compared to a gasoline car, which can be refueled almost anywhere in the United States in 3 minutes, the Tesla S can't match the convenience of refueling an ICE-powered car when it runs out of fuel; the Volt can be used unlimited in gas-mode. The minimum time to refuel the S is 30 minutes for 200 miles (estimated). Tesla now says it can refuel the S in 90 seconds for a cost $45 for 300 miles (estimated) additional range, but you can refuel an E90 in under 3 minutes for 474 miles of range (estimated) for $60.

The issue with your point is you say the Tesla is the best thing since sliced bread because you've narrowed down the Tesla to use as a limited range vehicle. My point, and other's points here, is that the Tesla is meant to replace a range-unlimited ICE car (that's what Elon Musk thinks too - go read the website, and as evidenced by Tesla building an infrastructure for Tesla-only fuel stations), which when taken in whole as a convenient conveyance device, the Tesla is not the better car.

DC - NYC via 83 out of B'more to York, PA, 222 to Allentown, 78 into NYC. I could find an even better off-interstate route, but the point is if you want to possibly use the Tesla in an extended range capacity you are limited to major interstate routes, which grossly limits your freedom of choice. I won't even go into the political ramifications of that...

Last edited by Efthreeoh; 09-07-2013 at 07:22 AM.
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      09-07-2013, 09:18 AM   #66
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474 miles of range in an E90 M3? All downhill coasting in neutral? I can barely get more than 200 miles before the low fuel warning comes on. That's the biggest annoyance to me with the M3, I average about 50 miles a day on my commute, end up gassing up every 4-5 days.
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