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      07-19-2013, 02:16 PM   #67
grimlock
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I incorrectly brought race into it, my bad.

My problem with the verdict is similar to Obama the constitutional lawyer's.
The definition of "self defence".
Forget what started this, the stalking, the age, race of the participants..
If two people are having at it, for whatever reason, regardless of who started it, when is it okay to kill somebody (with hands or otherwise)?
The problem with this verdict is that it makes it OKAY for anybody to kill somebody based on the flimsy fact that they have a few bruises or are bleeding.
You can see where this leads..
Let's say a kid has a problem with a 'bully' at school, so he/she brings a gun to school, confronts the bully, does not touch the bully, but calls his mother names etc. until the bully lets the kid have it, at which point POW the kid pulls out the gun and the bully is deader than Trayvon Martin.
Anything wrong with how I have portrayed this?
It's "self defence" gone haywire.
Because you can use deadly force on the flimsiest of "I felt my life was threatened"

It's a legal thing. Not racial, nothing else.
This is a field day for passive-aggressive types, and needless to say gun owners, non-confrontational people, would probably have an issue with what I said.
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      07-19-2013, 02:22 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pgviper View Post
kmarei,

If GZ was black and TM was white, would your opinion be different.

If YES, then you are only instigating the racial problem that clearly still exists.

If NO, then you are contradicting all of your statements.

Rascism is promoted in two forms, the obvious one where there is hate and/or prejudice AND the often overlooked form of assuming that you are being racially profiled by others. Both are completely inexcusable in my opinion.

I hope that you take what I said and start to apply it so that you may analyze situations involving people of different colored skins from a neutral standpoint.
why would saying no contradict my statements?
fact is GZ suspected TM because he was black, and wearing a hoodie
if TM was a white guy wearing jeans and a shirt, do you think GZ would have gotten suspicious?
probably not, and we wouldn't even be discussing this
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      07-19-2013, 02:25 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pgviper View Post
I hope that you take what I said and start to apply it so that you may analyze situations involving people of different colored skins from a neutral standpoint. This is because you are assuming there is racial profiling therefore making you part of the problem and not the solution.
what I have seen in the years I have lived here
is white people ALWAYS assume that race is never an issue
and always try to push that issue away.
when I have seen myself that race is usually an issue
and you all assume that there is no racial profiling going on
that's BS
or maybe its just pure luck that every time I travel, because I am an arab
I am "randomly" selected for extra screening?
race was clearly a factor here, and if you don't see it you're fooling yourself.
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      07-19-2013, 02:29 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Tonka View Post
The whole TM death is a tragedy, easily avoided if many small things would have happened. But they didn't and a someone's kid was killed.
well the obvious one, which I am sure you will object to, seeing your avatar
is if GZ was not carrying a gun, TM would be alive right now.
and I dare say, GZ would not have been so ballsy and followed TM

but of course you all don't want to admit that, because you think it's your god given right to carry firearms
because "guns don't kill people"
in which case TM must be alive no?
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      07-19-2013, 02:29 PM   #71
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ps.
on Obama's latest statements I don't know if it's a good idea to mix the fight for racial equality with this one case, where the verdict was delivered based on crappy law, and it seems like the overwhelming majority do not think it had anything to do with race (IN THIS CASE)
however, ofcourse he should not have been profiled, could he carry equally etc. is unfair, but a DIFFERENT matter to the issue of grounds for self-defence that I'm talking about

add: lol he must have listened to Michelle on this one
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      07-19-2013, 02:32 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schoy View Post
While it's nice to speculate what happened, in the end, we're stuck with the evidence that we have, and the prosecutions burden of proof. If you (or the State) are going to accuse someone of a crime, you better have proof to back it up, and all you're offering is speculation.
In most countries, getting finger prints off the gun, matching them to GZ
and confirming the bullet inside TM was fired from GZs gun
and the corpse of TM would be enough
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      07-19-2013, 02:37 PM   #73
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Also, this 'burden of proof' is ridiculous.
It's amazing how much sway you can get with good lawyers (ie.OJ)
The kid is dead. Dead men don't tell stories.
Shouldn't the burden of proof be on Zimmerman to prove that he did NOT murder him? Because the dead body is kinda of a 'proof' is it not?!
Or did they just fuck up and charge with murder2 instead of manslaughter..?
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      07-19-2013, 02:49 PM   #74
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This is a thread from which you can not lose by commenting. Its not black and white. It is what it is.
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      07-19-2013, 02:51 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmarei View Post
In most countries, getting finger prints off the gun, matching them to GZ
and confirming the bullet inside TM was fired from GZs gun
and the corpse of TM would be enough
I am not saying this is analogous, but i think you oversimplify. So you're saying in most countries if you kill someone in self defense (prints, bullet in wound, fired from your gun with prints) then you would go to jail? I think there must be more to it than that.

I have not studied the details of this case and can't comment on his motive, but I would imagine in any country, the motive is important.

Oops I commented. Now I will get blasted for just making a legal observation and having no viewpoint on the case.
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      07-19-2013, 03:13 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grimlock View Post
I incorrectly brought race into it, my bad.

My problem with the verdict is similar to Obama the constitutional lawyer's.
The definition of "self defence".
Forget what started this, the stalking, the age, race of the participants..
If two people are having at it, for whatever reason, regardless of who started it, when is it okay to kill somebody (with hands or otherwise)?
The problem with this verdict is that it makes it OKAY for anybody to kill somebody based on the flimsy fact that they have a few bruises or are bleeding.
You can see where this leads..
I see that this leads to people learning that it's not ok to attack someone. Don't start shit there won't be shit.

That's what people who are responsible for their actions think. I don't start fights. Why? Because i KNOW that if i start a fight with someone and they pull out a knife and stab me i have no one to blame but myself. I am in control of my actions BECAUSE i will be accountable for them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by grimlock View Post
Let's say a kid has a problem with a 'bully' at school, so he/she brings a gun to school, confronts the bully, does not touch the bully, but calls his mother names etc. until the bully lets the kid have it, at which point POW the kid pulls out the gun and the bully is deader than Trayvon Martin.
Anything wrong with how I have portrayed this?
It's "self defence" gone haywire.
Because you can use deadly force on the flimsiest of "I felt my life was threatened"

It's a legal thing. Not racial, nothing else.
This is a field day for passive-aggressive types, and needless to say gun owners, non-confrontational people, would probably have an issue with what I said.
No, self defense has not gone haywire. Your example is flawed in so many ways. There is no way in hell that defense would hold up court. You can USE that defense when ever you want. But a jury of your peers have to be convinced that you believed your life was in danger and that your life was plausibly in danger.

What you described is intended murder with a vengeful motive. This in no way correlates to the GZ case.

Lastly, i am pro gun and i am also non-confrontational. I've never started or been in a fist fight in my life. I've defused all but 2 situations with words and non threatening actions. However on 2 occasions despite those efforts i was once punched in the side of the face from behind and the other was shot at in broad daylight with no provocation. You know what i learned in both of those situations? The cops were no where to be found when i needed them. This is why i carry a weapon. Should the rarest of situations arise where my life is in danger, i will be able to defend myself since the cops can not do so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kmarei View Post
well the obvious one, which I am sure you will object to, seeing your avatar
is if GZ was not carrying a gun, TM would be alive right now.
and I dare say, GZ would not have been so ballsy and followed TM

but of course you all don't want to admit that, because you think it's your god given right to carry firearms
because "guns don't kill people"
in which case TM must be alive no?
It's not my God given right to carry a weapon. It's my constitutional right. And if GZ was carrying a knife TM could have very well been killed in the same situation. Lets not forget that GZ was acting on behalf of a neighborhood watch program. He wasn't just out looking for some little black boy to kill like some of you make him out to be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by grimlock View Post
Also, this 'burden of proof' is ridiculous.
It's amazing how much sway you can get with good lawyers (ie.OJ)
The kid is dead. Dead men don't tell stories.
Shouldn't the burden of proof be on Zimmerman to prove that he did NOT murder him? Because the dead body is kinda of a 'proof' is it not?!
Or did they just fuck up and charge with murder2 instead of manslaughter..?
He did have to prove he didn't murder him. Do you think the outcome would have been the same if GZ lawyers didn't say a word? It'd called defense.

Should i be able to point at you and say you stole the wheels that are on your car from me? After all, the wheels are on YOUR car and not mine? Should i have to prove you stole them or should you have to prove you didn't? See how they are the same? I say you stole them, look they are on his car. You say, look at this receipt i have from this store i bought them from. I say, store, do you have record of him buying these wheels? Store says yes. I don't win in court unless i can prove you had the store lie for you.
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      07-19-2013, 03:39 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmarei View Post

assume for a minute that you were TM
this guy off the street corners you and tells you wait there till the cops arrive
would you stand politely and wait till the cops arrive?
or would you at least try to push your way through?
not hit, but basically try to walk around GZ etc
If I was 10 years younger and more fit, like TM was, then I'd certainly try and go around. Probably wouldnt have too much trouble outrunning him. This was outside remember, not a narrow hallway where a slower, fatter, older guy could easily block the only exit.

The only thing that would change that is if he produced his gun at that point. Then everything changes, cause I know I cant outrun that. Then, I'd stand there, offer no resistance or threatening posture at all, the last thing I'd need is to give his any excuse to use it. Waiting for the cops to arrive would certainly by in my best interest then, for my own protection, regardless of what he is asking me to do.
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      07-19-2013, 03:48 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bolinp78 View Post
Obama out there, showing how much of a true leader he isn't, nurturing the racial divide with his comments on the matter. How can anyone still believe that he is a good leader and president?

He may be voicing exactly how he feels, but a leader that is supposed to represent EVERYONE and work for the people does not make these comments publicly for the entire world to consume.
Even still, he said he was "profiled" himself, dept store security would follow him, etc. Well, he's still here, and TM isn't. I guess that means that Obama's response to being unjustly followed was not to physically attack those security guards.

There's a valuable lesson there for the next TM to learn. I have no faith whatsoever that such a thing will happen.

Either you are raised to think properly, or you're not. Obama can say that if he had a son, he'd look like Trayvon, but he can't say that if he had a son, he would behave like Trayvon. I'n not fan of his politics, but I dont think he'd raise kids to embrace that thug/gangsta approach.
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      07-19-2013, 05:13 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmarei View Post
In most countries, getting finger prints off the gun, matching them to GZ
and confirming the bullet inside TM was fired from GZs gun
and the corpse of TM would be enough
Wrong. You need intent. Name me one first-world country where you do not need to prove intent for murder.

Plus, self-defense is justifiable homicide. Again, name me one first-world country where killing in self-defense is not a defense to murder.
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      07-19-2013, 05:17 PM   #80
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The racial element was magnified by early incomplete reports that Zimmerman was just white. His mother is actually a Peruvian immigrant.
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      07-19-2013, 05:18 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grimlock View Post
Also, this 'burden of proof' is ridiculous.
It's amazing how much sway you can get with good lawyers (ie.OJ)
The kid is dead. Dead men don't tell stories.
Shouldn't the burden of proof be on Zimmerman to prove that he did NOT murder him? Because the dead body is kinda of a 'proof' is it not?!
Or did they just fuck up and charge with murder2 instead of manslaughter..?
The prosecution has to prove murder. If (and only if) the prosecution makes its case that the accused is guilty of murder does the defense have to prove self-defense. Hence, if the defense is never able to prove self-defense, but the prosecution never proved murder, then the defense wins (as it should).
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      07-19-2013, 05:21 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grimlock View Post
Also, this 'burden of proof' is ridiculous.
It's amazing how much sway you can get with good lawyers (ie.OJ)
The kid is dead. Dead men don't tell stories.
Shouldn't the burden of proof be on Zimmerman to prove that he did NOT murder him? Because the dead body is kinda of a 'proof' is it not?!
Or did they just fuck up and charge with murder2 instead of manslaughter..?
No, the requirements of murder include intent (with some exception, none of which really apply here).

And yes, they probably should have charged him with manslaughter instead (this is where politics get in the way of good lawyering).
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      07-19-2013, 05:31 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grimlock View Post
Let's say a kid has a problem with a 'bully' at school, so he/she brings a gun to school, confronts the bully, does not touch the bully, but calls his mother names etc. until the bully lets the kid have it, at which point POW the kid pulls out the gun and the bully is deader than Trayvon Martin.
Anything wrong with how I have portrayed this?
It's "self defence" gone haywire.
Because you can use deadly force on the flimsiest of "I felt my life was threatened"
Even though the kid instigated the whole affair, the kid isn't guilty of murder. Perhaps manslaughter since he was being reckless with the name-calling. However, self-defense is still a plausible defense in this scenario because the bully escalated the confrontation with deadly force. The bully has to take responsibility for escalating the confrontation to the realm where deadly force can be a reasonable resolution.

And no, merely feeling as if your life was threatened is not enough. Self-defense generally requires (varies state by state):
1) The defendant actually believed that the person is using or would use physical force by the other person;
2) The defendant was reasonable in that belief;
3) The defendant actually believed that his/her degree of force in response was necessary;
4) The defendant was reasonable in that belief.

The fourth requirement is where self-defenses fail (if they were to fail, that is).
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      07-19-2013, 05:58 PM   #84
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you know this would never have happened if citizens weren't allowed to carry firearms.
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      07-19-2013, 06:39 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmarei View Post
why would saying no contradict my statements?
fact is GZ suspected TM because he was black, and wearing a hoodie
if TM was a white guy wearing jeans and a shirt, do you think GZ would have gotten suspicious?
probably not, and we wouldn't even be discussing this
Better question is whether or not we would be discussing this if it was a white guy wearing a hoodie? The color of his skin didn't make him susicious, the hoodie made him look suspicious.
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      07-19-2013, 08:38 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schoy View Post
Wrong. You need intent. Name me one first-world country where you do not need to prove intent for murder.

Plus, self-defense is justifiable homicide. Again, name me one first-world country where killing in self-defense is not a defense to murder.
Name me another first world country where everyone knows gz shot tm
We yet he walks away
Not even a slap on the wrist
Well unless you count the fact that he hasn't gotten his gun back yet
Poor fellow
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      07-19-2013, 08:59 PM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NReed904 View Post
Better question is whether or not we would be discussing this if it was a white guy wearing a hoodie? The color of his skin didn't make him susicious, the hoodie made him look suspicious.
Who knows, maybe we would, maybe we wouldnt. White people do shoot other white people, they dont just shoot blacks.

The event that brought this into the national spotlight was NOT the act of him being followed/profiled because of his appearance (that happens on a daily basis). No, it was how he reacted to being followed/profiled that resulted in a death. (which does not happen on a daily basis, or there'd be a Zimmerman-like trial every month in every state).
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      07-19-2013, 09:14 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmarei View Post
Name me another first world country where everyone knows gz shot tm
We yet he walks away
Not even a slap on the wrist
Well unless you count the fact that he hasn't gotten his gun back yet
Poor fellow
You seem to really have a problem with this. It seems in your mind that GZ went out that night with the intent to find a young black man to kill.

Do you really think that? If not, what's your problem? It's not like this case was tried in a closed private courtroom where deals were made and what not. It was a highly scrutinized case with national coverage. It was by the book and all available evidence was submitted that could have proved him guilty of murder.
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