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      07-18-2013, 08:52 PM   #23
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A 911 dispatcher is not law enforcement. When conducting surveillance, what GZ was doing, one of the basic principles is to maintain visual contact with the subject. GZ most likely knew this, thus why he maintained visual contact with the suspicious Trayvon. How many of you when observing suspicious activity near or around your home would ignore it? I certainly wouldn’t, especially if there was an increase of criminal activity and if I saw it around my home I am going to maintain visual observation until law enforcement arrives so I can direct them to where the suspect is. What GZ did was not uncommon; the unfortunate turn is that TM jumped a guy he did not suspect of carrying a concealed weapon. I am convinced that there is no underlying race motive issue in this tragedy, but it turned into one quickly.
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      07-18-2013, 08:57 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by kmarei View Post
Ok let's put race totally out of this

Zimmerman saw someone that looked suspicious
Called 911, spoke to them a bit, till the dispatcher told him NOT to continue to follow the suspect.
Zimmerman replied "these assholes, they always get away" and continued to follow the suspect
OK, but no crime committed yet by GZ.

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Originally Posted by kmarei View Post
Meaning he had already made up his mind that this person was guilty, and I am sure the fact that he had a gun gave him the balls to initiate a confrontation.
So a fight broke out, and the 17 year old was kicking the 29 year olds ass
So he pulled out his gun and shot him
Initiate a physical confrontation, despite the size deficit to TM ? So basically you are assuming GZ wanted to create an excuse to shoot TM, not just have him taken into custody by police?

We'll never know for sure, but lets say TM didnt start the physical altercation. Lets assume GZ cornered TM, and said you're not going anywhere, I've called the cops, and I'm gonna make sure you are still here when they arrive. If TM had simply stood there, and said fine, lets wait till the cops get here, it's hard to imagine that GZ would not have been satisfied with that, and would have still initiated physical violence in the absence of resistance, especially given his smaller size compared to TM.

I was struck by comments from AG Eric Holder about how he had to have the conversation with his own son (as his dad did with him) regarding the best way for a black man to react when dealing with encounters with authority. Basically acknowledging that you may be wrongly profiled based only on skin, and will be held to a different standard than a white man in that case. Pretending that never happens is not in your own best interest.

I'm sure Eric Holder did not tell his son to respond with physical violence, if you know the accusation is unfair or unjustified. Too bad TM's dad didnt have that talk with him....

The sad reality is that people are unfairly accused every day due to their race, but if they all reacted the way TM did, the morgues would be overflowing. If you want profiling to stop, that's not the way to get there.

What would Rosa Parks have achieved if she violently attacked that bus driver like some angry teen might have done, instead of the peaceful way she went about it. Probably wouldnt have helped her cause of removing segregated seating on buses at all, if anything it may have set the cause back. Two wrongs dont make a right.
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      07-18-2013, 09:01 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by kmarei View Post
Ok let's put race totally out of this

Zimmerman saw someone that looked suspicious
Called 911, spoke to them a bit, till the dispatcher told him NOT to continue to follow the suspect.
Zimmerman replied "these assholes, they always get away" and continued to follow the suspect
Meaning he had already made up his mind that this person was guilty, and I am sure the fact that he had a gun gave him the balls to initiate a confrontation.
So a fight broke out, and the 17 year old was kicking the 29 year olds ass
So he pulled out his gun and shot him

2 things
Why did Zimmerman call 911 if was going to ignore their advice and take matters into his own hands?
And If you approach someone, how does that count as "stand your ground"?
Stand your ground means someone comes at you, and you decide you will not back down, and stand your ground. How can the initiator use the stand your ground?
Is "stand your ground" an attacking maneuver? Or a defensive one?

I still wonder if during the fight, trayvon had killed Zimmerman
Could he have pulled off that "stand your ground" defense?
And if Zimmerman had killed trayvon with a knife, instead of a gun, would be have still gotten the innocent ruling?
Nobody here is saying that race played a part in this incident so I'm not sure what you're getting at. You also have the timeline a bit off which is likely why you still have questions. One of the first things he said to the police was that they always get away, meaning that people who have robbed houses in the past have always gotten away. It does mean "I'm not letting this motherfucker leave this place with a pulse" but rather "people who rob this neighborhood have historically always gotten away." It's a factually correct statement regarding past incidents and speaks nothing of his intent.

The police also initially told GZ to keep an eye on him and when they did tell him that they don't need him to follow the person, his reply was "okay" and he turned to go back to his car, as instructed. It was at this point that he was attacked. Phone records corroborate this timeline of events. He did not approach TM, he simply kept an eye on him. It was TM who approached GZ with his fists.
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      07-19-2013, 05:06 AM   #26
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I don't understand why 90+% of people agree with the verdict, even a lot of black people.
Is the main point, it is not okay to confront someone over something you don't like?
So if escalation is a no-no, why is Zimmerman using a gun in a fist fight acceptable?
It seems like the jurist have contradicted themselves..
I know juries are normal people and put themselves in the position "What would I have done?" but does this make them just black-fearing (racist)?
Someone said, it's easy to explain the jury is probably mostly Latino so anything else is just talk..
Pls tell me this is not the case.
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      07-19-2013, 07:14 AM   #27
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The jury was 5 caucasians and one minority.

Someone was kicking his ass to the point where he felt that his life was in danger (TM had already broken GZs nose and was smashing his head onto the concrete sidewalk). Why does it matter what color the skin is of the guy punching you? YOU are making that assumption but the evidence says nothing of the sort. GZ had helped many minority families in his comminuty, which had been plagued by robberies, and was working to protect all of his community by participating the neighborhood watch.

Additionally, a jury reviews the law and the evidence to see if the evidence shows that the defendant broke any of those laws. It doesn't have anything to do with race. It's strictly the law and the evidence.
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      07-19-2013, 07:54 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grimlock View Post
I don't understand why 90+% of people agree with the verdict, even a lot of black people.Is the main point, it is not okay to confront someone over something you don't like?
So if escalation is a no-no, why is Zimmerman using a gun in a fist fight acceptable?
It seems like the jurist have contradicted themselves..
I know juries are normal people and put themselves in the position "What would I have done?" but does this make them just black-fearing (racist)?
Someone said, it's easy to explain the jury is probably mostly Latino so anything else is just talk..
Pls tell me this is not the case.
If you think he is guilty, where is the evidence to support the fact that Zimmerman murdered him in cold blood? Stop bringing race into this, it has nothing to do with the evidence.

The evidence of the case supports an altercation in which Trayvon was shot and killed and Zimmerman was beaten and bloodied. The basis of that altercation cannot be proven BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT, especially since one of the people involved is dead and cannot testify. The events leading up to the altercation between the two are really irrelevant. As mentioned before, Zimmerman could have been screaming racial slurs for all we know, but once the fight started, things changed.

It's a classic "he said, she said," only in this case, one of the parties is dead. In this country, you cannot convict someone based on pure speculation with no facts.

The bottom line is that the prosecution was unable to produce enough solid evidence that could prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman murdered the kid. IMHO, the prosecution did a very poor job in this case. They very well may have been able to prosecute under different charges.
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      07-19-2013, 08:58 AM   #29
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I don't think it was murder. I don't believe Zimmerman had decided when he followed Martin he was going to kill him. If it was anything it was manslaughter. The state fucked up by trying to prove murder. I know it is common practice to charge a person with a higher charge to get them to plea down to the lesser charge, but this was going to be a hard case to even prove manslaughter.

Maybe if the state tried to prove manslaughter from the start, the outcome may have been different. Either way, there was very little conclusive evidence. No one could agree on whose voice it was right before the gunshot. The other person involved is dead. His friends credibility was shot.... It was going to hard enough to prove manslaughter.

I don't agree with the verdict because I think Zimmerman was necessarily innocent. I agree with the verdict because there just wasn't enough evidence to prove he is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.
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      07-19-2013, 09:55 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Mr Tonka View Post
Bold is where your opinion starts which discounts the rest of the post as it's based on your assumption of what happened and what GZ was thinking.
Do you think he said "these assholes, they always get away"
and had not made up his mind, and still meant well?
it's not an opinion, it's based on his words.

if you disagree, can I call you an asshole right now, and you would not get agitated?

not trying to be a dick ,but just pointing out the flaw in your argument
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      07-19-2013, 10:05 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmarei View Post
Do you think he said "these assholes, they always get away"
and had not made up his mind, and still meant well?
it's not an opinion, it's based on his words.

if you disagree, can I call you an asshole right now, and you would not get agitated?

not trying to be a dick ,but just pointing out the flaw in your argument
I see people driving down the shoulder of the highway while driving in NYC traffic. If I call up to report them and then make a comment "these assholes, they always get away", does that mean i'm going to slam the gas and rearend them off the road into a tree??? No, it just means i'm expressing my frustration.
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      07-19-2013, 10:06 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quagmire View Post
I don't think it was murder. I don't believe Zimmerman had decided when he followed Martin he was going to kill him. If it was anything it was manslaughter. The state fucked up by trying to prove murder. I know it is common practice to charge a person with a higher charge to get them to plea down to the lesser charge, but this was going to be a hard case to even prove manslaughter.

Maybe if the state tried to prove manslaughter from the start, the outcome may have been different. Either way, there was very little conclusive evidence. No one could agree on whose voice it was right before the gunshot. The other person involved is dead. His friends credibility was shot.... It was going to hard enough to prove manslaughter.

I don't agree with the verdict because I think Zimmerman was necessarily innocent. I agree with the verdict because there just wasn't enough evidence to prove he is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.
What do you think he was guilty of?
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      07-19-2013, 10:08 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by MiddleAgedAl View Post
OK, but no crime committed yet by GZ.
no, but why do you think the dispatcher told GZ NOT to continue to follow TM?
do you think that maybe, she wanted to avoid a confrontation where either person could get hurt?


Quote:
Originally Posted by MiddleAgedAl View Post
Initiate a physical confrontation, despite the size deficit to TM ? So basically you are assuming GZ wanted to create an excuse to shoot TM, not just have him taken into custody by police?.
not at all
but you are taking course of action that could very well lead to a confrontation, even though 911 told you NOT to follow.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MiddleAgedAl View Post
We'll never know for sure, but lets say TM didnt start the physical altercation. Lets assume GZ cornered TM, and said you're not going anywhere, I've called the cops, and I'm gonna make sure you are still here when they arrive. If TM had simply stood there, and said fine, lets wait till the cops get here, it's hard to imagine that GZ would not have been satisfied with that, and would have still initiated physical violence in the absence of resistance, especially given his smaller size compared to TM?
assume for a minute that you were TM
this guy off the street corners you and tells you wait there till the cops arrive
would you stand politely and wait till the cops arrive?
or would you at least try to push your way through?
not hit, but basically try to walk around GZ etc

Quote:
Originally Posted by MiddleAgedAl View Post
Initiate a physical confrontation, despite the size deficit to TM ? So basically you are assuming GZ wanted to create an excuse to shoot TM, not just have him taken into custody by police?
no, but it was a course of action that was very likely to lead to a confrontation. and the fact that he had a gun gave him the extra confidence boost to initiate this course.

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Originally Posted by MiddleAgedAl View Post
We'll never know for sure, but lets say TM didnt start the physical altercation. Lets assume GZ cornered TM, and said you're not going anywhere, I've called the cops, and I'm gonna make sure you are still here when they arrive. If TM had simply stood there, and said fine, lets wait till the cops get here, it's hard to imagine that GZ would not have been satisfied with that, and would have still initiated physical violence in the absence of resistance, especially given his smaller size compared to TM.
sounds similar to when you tell an abused wife , if you had just let him have his way, this never would have happened.
I know if some person off the street tried to tell me to just wait there and he had called the police. I would not take it well
and I am 99% sure, none if you all would stand there either.
I would not start a fight, but I would try my best to get out of that situation
and it the other guy tried to hold me, then yes I would start a fight.

see this is where you can't look at this effectively without considering the race aspect
take the average black person
have a white person tell him I am suspicious of you and I have called the cops
just wait there till they come
I am pretty sure 100% of black people would not take it well.
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      07-19-2013, 10:08 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmarei View Post
Do you think he said "these assholes, they always get away"
and had not made up his mind, and still meant well?
it's not an opinion, it's based on his words.

if you disagree, can I call you an asshole right now, and you would not get agitated?

not trying to be a dick ,but just pointing out the flaw in your argument
Was Zimmerman's statement wrong?

The area was plagued by robberies and the perpetrators were not being caught.

pgviper's statement says it best. It's a phrase commonly used to voice frustration.

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Originally Posted by kmarei View Post
assume for a minute that you were TM
this guy off the street corners you and tells you wait there till the cops arrive
would you stand politely and wait till the cops arrive?
or would you at least try to push your way through?
not hit, but basically try to walk around GZ etc
That's not what happened... He ambushed Zimmerman and began to beat him. If he was fearful from a guy following him (especially an overweight guy like Zimmerman), he easily could have ran away and outran him.
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      07-19-2013, 10:12 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmarei View Post
Do you think he said "these assholes, they always get away"
and had not made up his mind, and still meant well?
it's not an opinion, it's based on his words.

if you disagree, can I call you an asshole right now, and you would not get agitated?

not trying to be a dick ,but just pointing out the flaw in your argument
It is YOUR opinion, based on an out of context statement.

Yes, you are well within your rights to call me what ever you want to, to my face, in public, in front of my wife, relatives and children.

I still have no right to start a physical altercation with you over your words.

My argument isn't flawed. It's the law.

And now you're mixing your arguments. GZ didn't say that to TM, he said it to the 911 dispatch. So that statement couldn't have agitated TM in the first place.
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      07-19-2013, 10:14 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Tonka View Post
What do you think he was guilty of?
It can't be proven he is guilty of anything. We only have one side of the story. Inconclusive conclusions on whose voice it was before the gunshot. We will probably never know what really happened. Due to the lack of evidence, not guilty is the only choice. We can all speculate on what happened and have our opinions on who was right or wrong, but in the eyes of the law he is innocent. Doesn't mean he actually is innocent. There isn't enough information/evidence for me to say he is innocent or is guilty of manslaughter. But, with the way the law works( and I agree with how it works) he is innocent since there wasn't enough evidence to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.
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      07-19-2013, 10:18 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by KingOfJericho View Post
Nobody here is saying that race played a part in this incident so I'm not sure what you're getting at.
I am getting at the fact that race WAS a part of this
whether you like to accept/face this or not, it was a factor
you think if GZ had found a 17 year old white boy, dressed on preppie clothes
he would have gotten suspicious?

Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfJericho View Post
Nobody here is saying that race played a part in this incident so I'm not sure what you're getting at. You also have the timeline a bit off which is likely why you still have questions. One of the first things he said to the police was that they always get away, meaning that people who have robbed houses in the past have always gotten away. It does mean "I'm not letting this motherfucker leave this place with a pulse" but rather "people who rob this neighborhood have historically always gotten away." It's a factually correct statement regarding past incidents and speaks nothing of his intent.
sorry but your statement is not true
he didn't say these guys always get away
"these ASSHOLES always get away"
sorry but the word assholes here does signify his intent.

this basically means he was thinking, or could possibly have been thinking,
"not this time punk"
which to me at least is confirmed with him ignoring the advice of the dispatcher and continuing to follow TM

Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfJericho View Post
The police also initially told GZ to keep an eye on him and when they did tell him that they don't need him to follow the person, his reply was "okay" and he turned to go back to his car, as instructed. It was at this point that he was attacked. Phone records corroborate this timeline of events. He did not approach TM, he simply kept an eye on him. It was TM who approached GZ with his fists..
phone records confirm that GZ turned away and TM approached him?



here is the entire call, none of this points to him turning around and getting in his car, so which call are you referring to?

http://www.documentcloud.org/documen...zimmerman.html
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      07-19-2013, 10:19 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by kmarei View Post
no, but why do you think the dispatcher told GZ NOT to continue to follow TM?
do you think that maybe, she wanted to avoid a confrontation where either person could get hurt?

not at all
but you are taking course of action that could very well lead to a confrontation, even though 911 told you NOT to follow.

The operator initially told GZ to keep an eye on the person. *When he was asked if he was following and replied that he was, the operator told him that we do not need you to do that. *GZs reply to that was "OK" - AS IN, I WILL COMPLY.

assume for a minute that you were TM
this guy off the street corners you and tells you wait there till the cops arrive
would you stand politely and wait till the cops arrive?
or would you at least try to push your way through?
not hit, but basically try to walk around GZ etc

There is ZERO evidence that any of what you just said had actually occurred.

no, but it was a course of action that was very likely to lead to a confrontation. and the fact that he had a gun gave him the extra confidence boost to initiate this course.


sounds similar to when you tell an abused wife , if you had just let him have his way, this never would have happened.
I know if some person off the street tried to tell me to just wait there and he had called the police. I would not take it well
and I am 99% sure, none if you all would stand there either.
I would not start a fight, but I would try my best to get out of that situation
and it the other guy tried to hold me, then yes I would start a fight.

There is ZERO evidence that any of what you just said had actually occurred.

see this is where you can't look at this effectively without considering the race aspect
take the average black person
have a white person tell him I am suspicious of you and I have called the cops
just wait there till they come
I am pretty sure 100% of black people would not take it well.
There is ZERO evidence that any of what you just said had actually occurred.
Many of the assertions you're making here are factually incorrect. You don't seem to be very well versed in the facts of the case at all.
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      07-19-2013, 10:20 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by Templar View Post

That's not what happened... He ambushed Zimmerman and began to beat him. If he was fearful from a guy following him (especially an overweight guy like Zimmerman), he easily could have ran away and outran him.
how do you know he ambushed him?
as far as I know, the only person, still alive, that was there is GZ
so what are you basing this on?
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      07-19-2013, 10:25 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmarei View Post
how do you know he ambushed him?
as far as I know, the only person, still alive, that was there is GZ
so what are you basing this on?
Your assumptions are terrible. You act as if you were there and saw everything first hand.

Are you saying Zimmerman beat himself up?

Prove it.

Zimmerman's statements (won't say testimony because he didn't testify) say that he was jumped while attempting to follow Martin. This was not proven incorrect in the court. Zimmerman was injured in the altercation that followed. Again, not proven incorrect in court. Anything COULD have happened, but that is not what this is about. The case was whether or not Zimmerman MURDERED this kid. Not if he instigated the fight, not if he called him racial slurs. That's not what they charged him with. They charged him with MURDER.

You need to look at the FACTS of the case and stop the speculation on what you think COULD have happened. In this country, you have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt. There is no way, with the evidence provided, that could have been done on this murder charge. Speculate all you want, there's no evidence to support the kid was murdered.
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      07-19-2013, 10:25 AM   #41
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It is YOUR opinion, based on an out of context statement.

Yes, you are well within your rights to call me what ever you want to, to my face, in public, in front of my wife, relatives and children.

I still have no right to start a physical altercation with you over your words.

My argument isn't flawed. It's the law.
it's not really out of context
it was said while he was following him
he was armed
he was neighborhood watch
so don't tell me he wasn't at least thinking "not this time punk"

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Originally Posted by Mr Tonka View Post
And now you're mixing your arguments. GZ didn't say that to TM, he said it to the 911 dispatch. So that statement couldn't have agitated TM in the first place.
that's not what I meant
I mean when you use a word like that
it shows you are pissed off
which at least to me, confirms he had made up his mind that this kid wasn't getting away this time.
he didn't intend to kill him, I think we can all agree on that
but a fight did break out
he was getting beat, and he chose to pull out his gun and end the fight.
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      07-19-2013, 10:32 AM   #42
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Many of the assertions you're making here are factually incorrect. You don't seem to be very well versed in the facts of the case at all.
you obviously didn't really read my comment very well
one point I said assume that a certain situation happens
your response was ?
There is zero evidence that this happened
I didn't say it happened, I said lets assume this had happened for arguments sake
go back , read it again, and then comment
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      07-19-2013, 10:35 AM   #43
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no, but why do you think the dispatcher told GZ NOT to continue to follow TM?
do you think that maybe, she wanted to avoid a confrontation where either person could get hurt?
Probably, maybe the dispatcher told him that because she figured the kid was black and would start a fight. Think of that?

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Originally Posted by kmarei View Post
not at all
but you are taking course of action that could very well lead to a confrontation, even though 911 told you NOT to follow.
Yet not illegal

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Originally Posted by kmarei View Post
assume for a minute that you were TM
this guy off the street corners you and tells you wait there till the cops arrive
would you stand politely and wait till the cops arrive?
or would you at least try to push your way through?
not hit, but basically try to walk around GZ etc
They weren't on a "street corner" they were in a GATED NEIGHBORHOOD that had been plagued with robberies in the recent past. And "pushing your way through" is assault defined by law.

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Originally Posted by kmarei View Post
no, but it was a course of action that was very likely to lead to a confrontation. and the fact that he had a gun gave him the extra confidence boost to initiate this course.
Your own speculation. I can tell you from experience that when carrying a firearm i am much more reluctant to get into an altercation. You can't assume just because someone has a firearm that they are looking for trouble or are emboldened by that weapon. It's not always true.


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Originally Posted by kmarei View Post
sounds similar to when you tell an abused wife , if you had just let him have his way, this never would have happened.
I know if some person off the street tried to tell me to just wait there and he had called the police. I would not take it well
and I am 99% sure, none if you all would stand there either.
I would not start a fight, but I would try my best to get out of that situation
and it the other guy tried to hold me, then yes I would start a fight.
Again, they weren't on a random public street. And in this situation you would be the one breaking the law by starting a fight. Asking someone to stay put because they called the police is not illegal. Putting your hands on someone is.

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see this is where you can't look at this effectively without considering the race aspect
take the average black person
have a white person tell him I am suspicious of you and I have called the cops
just wait there till they come
I am pretty sure 100% of black people would not take it well.
I and the LAW don't give a shit how well any race of person would take anything that is said to them. Assaulting someone over what they say to you is illegal.
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      07-19-2013, 10:40 AM   #44
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you obviously didn't really read my comment very well
one point I said assume that a certain situation happens
your response was ?
There is zero evidence that this happened
I didn't say it happened, I said lets assume this had happened for arguments sake
go back , read it again, and then comment
I'm not going to assume anything because we're discussing a case based on facts. There is no reason for discussing what-ifs, although Tonka did address them very well above.
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