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      07-23-2013, 12:54 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by edwinm3 View Post
I've seen miatas passing M3s on the track.
Just depends would you rather drive a fast car slow or a slower car fast? That's why boxsters and miatas make such great track cars. Light, nimble, precise and can carry tons of speed into corners and are easy to drive fast too.
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      07-23-2013, 03:39 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by Wolfinwolfsclothing
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Originally Posted by edwinm3 View Post
I've seen miatas passing M3s on the track.
Just depends would you rather drive a fast car slow or a slower car fast? That's why boxsters and miatas make such great track cars. Light, nimble, precise and can carry tons of speed into corners and are easy to drive fast too.
You're 100% right!
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      07-23-2013, 04:07 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by Wolfinwolfsclothing View Post
Just depends would you rather drive a fast car slow or a slower car fast? That's why boxsters and miatas make such great track cars. Light, nimble, precise and can carry tons of speed into corners and are easy to drive fast too.
I'd rather drive a fast car fast, because most of the time these cars are being driven in the street and let's be honest, who wants to drive a Miata in the street!!?
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      07-23-2013, 05:00 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by Wolfinwolfsclothing View Post
To be honest, been in plenty of gallardos and Murcis and their interiors were garbage. 991 is much better and only the new lambos can compare. Porsche ranks highest in quality and dependability and their interior design and quality is second to none.
As far as that gallardo interior, I'll pass, I can't stand their crappy Audi interior controls.
As far as looks, the 911 is and will always be one of the best looking on the road...new boxster and cayman too are amazing looking cars. Are they AS flashy as a f car or lambo, no. I have a buddy who owns countless cars...599 gtb, 458 coupe and 458 spyder, gt2 rs and will flat out tell you the best is the gt2 rs BY FAR but just isn't as in your face as the f cars even though it does gets loads of attention.

Again, to each their own, but I'd rather have a car that is so over engineered in every way and that has proven to be the single most dominant car in race history and that will always be the 911.

I almost throw up every time I read the bullshit you spew about Porsche on this forum.

I love Porsches for what they are, but you admit no shortcomings to anything they've ever made. if this is what you define as being "second to none" on interior quality, you're sorely misinformed.



aside from the RMS issues that left many of the 2005 through 2007 997 owners with blown motors (often out of warranty), all 997 owners know what poor quality some of the knobs are in the 997. the interior on the 991 is certainly a huge leap forward, but so was the price.

Porsches are awesome cars - I've always loved them. but they're not beyond reproach, and I pity any fool that takes your severely biased opinions that you speak as gospel seriously.
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      07-23-2013, 05:14 PM   #115
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      07-23-2013, 05:48 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by Brosef View Post
I almost throw up every time I read the bullshit you spew about Porsche on this forum.

I love Porsches for what they are, but you admit no shortcomings to anything they've ever made. if this is what you define as being "second to none" on interior quality, you're sorely misinformed.



aside from the RMS issues that left many of the 2005 through 2007 997 owners with blown motors (often out of warranty), all 997 owners know what poor quality some of the knobs are in the 997. the interior on the 991 is certainly a huge leap forward, but so was the price.

Porsches are awesome cars - I've always loved them. but they're not beyond reproach, and I pity any fool that takes your severely biased opinions that you speak as gospel seriously.

I don't know, I was all excited to drive the 911, and while I did not track it by any means, it was a let down. Maybe my expectations were just too high since I wanted one for years.

And from a vehicle line up, they are not infallable.

911/S - Like it or not dated styling, and the 911S just didn't do it for me
911 Turbo/GT3 - Great Cars, just very expensive
Boxter - Technically you need a uterus to drive one
Cayman - Drives nice I hear, but the worst looking rear end there is
Cayenne - Just plain ugly
Panamera - The Cayenne's even uglier 4 door sibling, I mean hideous


Separately, they are expensive to maintain, and have had thier fare share of reliability issues. I've heard some horror stories.


Don't know what to say, I guess the 911 drive just let me down, granted from some pretty high expectations. I think it is hard to beat an M3 or S/C M3 from a $/performance and enthusiasm level.
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      07-23-2013, 05:53 PM   #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfinwolfsclothing View Post
Totally agree. Base 991 is a hell of a car but too many people are concerned with power they can't handle and can't use. I doubt anyone on this forum with a supercharged car can handle even a stock m3 at 10/10ths on the track with dsc fully off.
A 991 has much higher limits than an m3 (i.e. m3 at 10/10 = 991 at 8/10)and the 991 is so easy to drive fast you'd surely be faster on the track over an m3 and you don't need to worry about changing pads or anything before going like you need to the m3. Some people don't see that huge unmistakable difference out of the box.
That's the inherent problem of "test drives". Most people aren't cornering hard on a test drive let alone at the limits with DSC off. Even as a decently capable driver, I wouldn't do it on public roads in a car that's not mine. Most people judge a car's performance based on magazine/internet reviews along with how fast the car feels with their butt dyno, the sounds it makes, and maybe the steering feel (which really doesn't have much to do with the car's performance either). I think if a capable driver test drove a stock M3 and a 911 both on a racetrack, most would pick the 911 as the better performing car. On a street test drive, I can see the M3 being favored.
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      07-23-2013, 07:47 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by Brosef View Post
I love Porsches for what they are, but you admit no shortcomings to anything they've ever made. if this is what you define as being "second to none" on interior quality, you're sorely misinformed.

Cut your fingernails. Sheesh.

I like my Porsche(s). I'd keep either one of them over the M3 at this point. No car company is perfect though. 911 vs M3, each car has a purpose and they are both incredible at that purpose. The silly arguments always assume the cars are serving the same purpose, which they don't.
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      07-23-2013, 09:03 PM   #119
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Cut your fingernails. Sheesh.

I like my Porsche(s). I'd keep either one of them over the M3 at this point. No car company is perfect though. 911 vs M3, each car has a purpose and they are both incredible at that purpose. The silly arguments always assume the cars are serving the same purpose, which they don't.
I don't own a Porsche, but my father owns a Cayenne GTS. After two years, the car feels like a bucket of bolts. The 991 is unequivocally a superior driving machine to the m3 - time will tell if it's put together well. I've had pretty good luck with BMW, so far, in that regard.
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      07-23-2013, 10:43 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by Brosef View Post
I almost throw up every time I read the bullshit you spew about Porsche on this forum.

I love Porsches for what they are, but you admit no shortcomings to anything they've ever made. if this is what you define as being "second to none" on interior quality, you're sorely misinformed.



aside from the RMS issues that left many of the 2005 through 2007 997 owners with blown motors (often out of warranty), all 997 owners know what poor quality some of the knobs are in the 997. the interior on the 991 is certainly a huge leap forward, but so was the price.

Porsches are awesome cars - I've always loved them. but they're not beyond reproach, and I pity any fool that takes your severely biased opinions that you speak as gospel seriously.
Wow, I can come up with 10X the amount of issues from bmw without even thinking. E46 m3 rod bearing and absolute GARBAGE sub frame. E9x 335 waste gate issues, hpfp, limp modes in the new f30s, terrible smg gearboxes in the e60/63 m5/m6 as well as oil burning issues. Idle vale control on the e9x m3s and the list could go on and on. I also have a friend with an f10 m5 that has has many steering and suspension problems.

Fact is porsche makes a SUPERIOR product. Plain and simple. The rear main seal you speak of is immaterial at best. And between me, my father and a couple friends, we've collectively owned 40-50 996/997 and also cayman models and none of us ever had any pealing on controls. Both my sisters BMWS have though.

Sorry, but fact is porsche makes a higher quality car. They lead the way for every market they compete. Sports cars, sedans or SUVs. Never did I say they don't have their own issues, every manuf does, but they have made an effort to stay on top of the game year in and year out.

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      07-23-2013, 11:17 PM   #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ranger22 View Post
Cut your fingernails. Sheesh.

I like my Porsche(s). I'd keep either one of them over the M3 at this point. No car company is perfect though. 911 vs M3, each car has a purpose and they are both incredible at that purpose. The silly arguments always assume the cars are serving the same purpose, which they don't.
Each does have it merits but overall porsche is a significantly better car and that's why they command prices and margin for their cars that no one in the car industry matches.
Again, the m3 gts came out several years after the 997.1 gt3 yet couldn't hold a candle to it even though it was 5 years newer. Bmw just can't play at that level with them or anyone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by robotk View Post
I don't own a Porsche, but my father owns a Cayenne GTS. After two years, the car feels like a bucket of bolts. The 991 is unequivocally a superior driving machine to the m3 - time will tell if it's put together well. I've had pretty good luck with BMW, so far, in that regard.
My father also still owns a cayenne gts and after 3 years, still doesn't have a single rattle. It's as solid as the day he bought it.

Here's the last four years of car dependability and initial quality of both brands.

Porsche (dependability/quality)
2010 1/1
2011 4/6
2012 2/3
2013 2/1

Bmw (same as above)
2010 17/16 (both below industry average)
2011 21/13 (both below industry average)
2012 20/10 (dependability below ind. average)
2013 16/18 (both below industry average)

Clearly there is a big gap in how these cars are built and hold up. The material and fit finish are clearly better in porsche cars, from the boxster to the panamera to the cayenne and 911. And that data includes 2 model years of the 991 which is proving to be of the same quality the panamera and cayenne are (industry benchmarks there too).

I have a friend who is the shop foreman for a very prestigious dealer which he deals with porsche, Ferrari, lambo, McLaren, etc on a daily basis and he has always stood by saying porsche makes the best cars on the road, hands down.
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      07-24-2013, 01:56 AM   #122
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Do it! But try the S version as well, it gives the 997 GT3 a run for its money.
I have a 997.2 GT3 RS. Specced it myself and drove it for past 3 years. It was getting serviced hence the 991 loaner. I have driven the 991S several times now.

my thoughts on the 991S

I got to drive the 991S on the same route at the same time in same weather conditions. The 991S was a PDK equipped car, no power kit. My GT3 RS has the same tires on it currently. Michelin Pilot Super Sports. On an interchange i am very familiar with i entered with same entry speed as my GT3 RS. exit speed was 16kph higher in the 991S and i felt i could have done more with higher entry speed. In the GT3 RS i am understeering at the exit slightly which tells me i'm at the limit of my comfort for that particular piece of road. Still I pick my 997.2 RS because i do really enjoy the challenge of driving this car.

I endurance race at the Nürburgring and I have been a coach for nearly 10 years. I owned a 997.1 GT3 before the RS. I race only in BMW's. I'm on my 5th M car. So i would say i am very familiar with both Porsche and BMW and can drive them ok.

The base 991 surprised me actually. Its every bit as fast and confidence inspiring as the 991S when pushing it.

My only complaint is the 991 is a little too easy to drive for my tastes. Anyways, it has me thinking of getting one. maybe an ex demo or loaner car thats been abused a little with an appropriate price tag. I loved getting back in the GT3 RS though. Its raw. I think the last of the "old school" GT Porsches.

this morning I drove my M3 to work. i just put the brembo's back on her. its a manual transmission E90. i think the manual is more fun than DCT. its fun to drive but i honestly enjoyed the 991 a lot more. This is a bmw forum and i do really like M3's. there isn't one i have driven that i didn't appreciate. they do offer tremendous value for their price. there is nothing in their price range that even comes close for the same vintage. so i respect not everyone likes 911's or sees the value of them. its not for everyone.

the op tried it and happy with his car. cool. enjoy in good health. i'm hoping i can always have an M3 and a 911 in my garage. i really want to build an E46 for endurance racing next. bmw's also are great value racing too. 911 cup is my dream race car but $$$$$!
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      07-24-2013, 02:53 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by JFWM3 View Post
911/S - Like it or not dated styling, and the 911S just didn't do it for me
911 Turbo/GT3 - Great Cars, just very expensive
Boxter - Technically you need a uterus to drive one
Cayman - Drives nice I hear, but the worst looking rear end there is
Cayenne - Just plain ugly
Panamera - The Cayenne's even uglier 4 door sibling, I mean hideous


Separately, they are expensive to maintain, and have had thier fare share of reliability issues. I've heard some horror stories.
911/S - dated? Its a 911. lol. we call it evolution. to each their own. i like every 911. least favorite base 911 for me is the 996. love the older air cooled cars too. of the yesteryear cars i would say i would want most a 73 911S and an 89 E30 M3.
911 Turbo/GT3 - seriously check out a 997.1 Turbo tremendous value! insanely fast and they still have rear wheel driving bias up to 100%. the 997.1 turbo also has the mezger engine (GT1, GT2, GT3 and cup motor) so its extremely hardy and great lineage. GT3 2007-08 also great value. probably only 997 or 996 i would consider used are these models.
Boxster - what??? wow. double insult here. boxster is excellent roadster. best one? i think so. many of the most talented drivers i know and have learned from are women. Z4 nice car. i think its not as good looking or drives as well as Boxster. Z3 had my heart though. miss my M Coupe.
Cayman - drives excellent. mid engined. styling subjective. new ones are beautiful and wide! i still prefer a 911 over them. equivalent BMW….sadly there is none. Z4 M Coupe would be awesome. The Z4 GT3 is my second favorite race car after the 911 Cup.
Cayenne - drifting and suv are two words i never used in same sentence until i got to drive a Cayenne Turbo. and they still have a trailer hitch. i don't like that the X5 M version gives up utility.
Panamera - agree 100% its ugly on outside especially back half. but the best place to be is inside one. feels like you are piloting a G6 instead of driving a car. even base Pana is fun big car. I would pick an F10 M5 over one though.

expensive to maintain? well the last two porsche i owned the oil cost me $7 a bottle. the service cost is about same as bmw i would say. (in europe bmw maintenance is not free). every car manufacturer has their share of reliability issues. never had a problem with either of my 997's. the buttons all have the printing on them still. my first GT3 is owned by a friend of mine so i get to see her still every day. both are doing just fine despite being driven quite thoroughly. lap after lap no problems. the cool thing about the porsche zentrum is they ask you what kind of brake fluid you want when you get flushed. i prefer SRF.

some other porsche things i like.

key in left side. throwback to lemans standing starts. made easier for driver to start car and go. tradition which porsche favors. i love the entire evolution approach to engineering. continuous improvement.
track settings are in the vehicle manual.
gt cars come with pilot sport cup tires.
oem accessory for any 911 is bolt in roll bar.
no artificial speed limiter. engineered to go as fast as possible, handle at that speed, and stop. lap after lap after lap. no compromises.
confused look on little kids faces when they see you putting a bag in the "engine bay".
my 2 year old that thinks all cars engines are in the back.
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      07-24-2013, 03:11 AM   #124
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When is the GT3 coming out?
4Q 2013
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      07-24-2013, 09:17 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by radiantm3 View Post
That's the inherent problem of "test drives". Most people aren't cornering hard on a test drive let alone at the limits with DSC off. Even as a decently capable driver, I wouldn't do it on public roads in a car that's not mine. Most people judge a car's performance based on magazine/internet reviews along with how fast the car feels with their butt dyno, the sounds it makes, and maybe the steering feel (which really doesn't have much to do with the car's performance either). I think if a capable driver test drove a stock M3 and a 911 both on a racetrack, most would pick the 911 as the better performing car. On a street test drive, I can see the M3 being favored.
good post, and agreed.

my 911 doesn't really shine unless its on the track. don't get me wrong, its a great road car, but I don't really rip on the car on the street no matter what I drive. so because of that, it isn't necessarily amazing on the street, though the monster tq is nice.

if I didn't track my car, I wouldn't own a car like a 911tt or an m3. id enjoy something like an x5m more. once you track a car, driving on the street is boring in comparison.

I will say the fit and finish is about equal on the m3 and the 997tt, but the tech and features are much better on the m3. the one major win for the p car is the seats. the adaptive sport seats are the business. that said, the 991 has a more well crafted interior than the m3 with better materials and equal tech.

for a car with significant track time involved, Porsche is king, no doubt, its more expensive for a reason. m3 is great as a dual purpose car with some track time mixed in.
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      07-24-2013, 09:42 AM   #126
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good post, and agreed.

my 911 doesn't really shine unless its on the track. don't get me wrong, its a great road car, but I don't really rip on the car on the street no matter what I drive. so because of that, it isn't necessarily amazing on the street, though the monster tq is nice.

if I didn't track my car, I wouldn't own a car like a 911tt or an m3. id enjoy something like an x5m more. once you track a car, driving on the street is boring in comparison.

I will say the fit and finish is about equal on the m3 and the 997tt, but the tech and features are much better on the m3. the one major win for the p car is the seats. the adaptive sport seats are the business. that said, the 991 has a more well crafted interior than the m3 with better materials and equal tech.

for a car with significant track time involved, Porsche is king, no doubt, its more expensive for a reason. m3 is great as a dual purpose car with some track time mixed in.
I think any performance car that is made for street AND track shines on a test drive. M3s high redline can't really be taken advantage of on the street either. That's why so many people love the AMGs with tq and power that can be more easily accessed daily. But yes, once you've driven a porsche, whether it be 911 cayman/boxster or pan/cayenne on the track you realize why they are the benchmark and why they cost what they do, especially if you've seen how m's can't go right off the factory floor without modification to be tracked. Porsches are good to go from the get go. Obviously there is significantly more than just that but that alone is worth the price. And yes the 991 has upped the interior game to a level the 997 didn't have (though the 997 was good). But it also goes further to things like paint quality, leather, seat design, etc etc.
Things like the cheap soft windshields bmw uses or their awful paint quality are just areas they cut corners amongst others.
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      07-24-2013, 10:51 AM   #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfinwolfsclothing View Post
I think any performance car that is made for street AND track shines on a test drive. M3s high redline can't really be taken advantage of on the street either. That's why so many people love the AMGs with tq and power that can be more easily accessed daily. But yes, once you've driven a porsche, whether it be 911 cayman/boxster or pan/cayenne on the track you realize why they are the benchmark and why they cost what they do, especially if you've seen how m's can't go right off the factory floor without modification to be tracked. Porsches are good to go from the get go. Obviously there is significantly more than just that but that alone is worth the price. And yes the 991 has upped the interior game to a level the 997 didn't have (though the 997 was good). But it also goes further to things like paint quality, leather, seat design, etc etc.
Things like the cheap soft windshields bmw uses or their awful paint quality are just areas they cut corners amongst others.
the m3 is a superior road car to the 911 in my opinion because it has much more useable space and has less road noise than the 911.

in all performance aspects the 911 wins IMO. then again, I own a 997tt so it should win since it costs more.
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      07-24-2013, 10:59 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by KennyPowers View Post
the m3 is a superior road car to the 911 in my opinion because it has much more useable space and has less road noise than the 911.

in all performance aspects the 911 wins IMO. then again, I own a 997tt so it should win since it costs more.
Can't agree. I could easily say in that case the panamera is a superior road car since it offers more space, better mileage and superior quality to anything bmw while providing better tech and less road noise.

The 911 is a phenomenal road car...after all they're main purpose for any 911 (GT or not) is street driving. The 991, and especially turbo models IMO are the single best road cars money can buy so long as you don't need a big trunk or 4 seats. Then again, most m3 owners love to brag about how little they use their back seats so that point is moot IMO. A 911 is better to drive on the street or on the track. The m3 is more useable and offers more space but for me it's the fact that the m3 is just not as flashy that makes it ideal for me at this point and I occasionally use my back seats.
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      07-24-2013, 11:01 AM   #129
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Can't agree. I could easily say in that case the panamera is a superior road car since it offers more space, better mileage and superior quality to anything bmw while providing better tech and less road noise.

The 911 is a phenomenal road car...after all they're main purpose for any non GT car is street driving. The 991, and especially turbo models IMO are the single best road cars money can buy so long as you don't need a big trunk or 4 seats. Then again, most m3 owners love to brag about how little they use their back seats so that point is moot IMO. A 911 is better to drive on the street or on the track. The m3 is more useable and offers more space but for me it's the fact that the m3 is just not as flashy that makes it ideal for me at this point and I occasionally use my back seats.
you could never accept that anything is ever better than a Porsche, in any way.
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      07-24-2013, 11:03 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by Wolfinwolfsclothing View Post
Can't agree. I could easily say in that case the panamera is a superior road car since it offers more space, better mileage and superior quality to anything bmw while providing better tech and less road noise.

The 911 is a phenomenal road car...after all they're main purpose for any 911 (GT or not) is street driving. The 991, and especially turbo models IMO are the single best road cars money can buy so long as you don't need a big trunk or 4 seats. Then again, most m3 owners love to brag about how little they use their back seats so that point is moot IMO. A 911 is better to drive on the street or on the track. The m3 is more useable and offers more space but for me it's the fact that the m3 is just not as flashy that makes it ideal for me at this point and I occasionally use my back seats.


I'm sorry, but that is insane.
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      07-24-2013, 11:06 AM   #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfinwolfsclothing View Post
Can't agree. I could easily say in that case the panamera is a superior road car since it offers more space, better mileage and superior quality to anything bmw while providing better tech and less road noise.

The 911 is a phenomenal road car...after all they're main purpose for any 911 (GT or not) is street driving. The 991, and especially turbo models IMO are the single best road cars money can buy so long as you don't need a big trunk or 4 seats. Then again, most m3 owners love to brag about how little they use their back seats so that point is moot IMO. A 911 is better to drive on the street or on the track. The m3 is more useable and offers more space but for me it's the fact that the m3 is just not as flashy that makes it ideal for me at this point and I occasionally use my back seats.
well, I own a 911 and owned an m3 before as well. and for road use only, I would rather own the m3 and have the extra money in my pocket. there is nowhere to drive fast in town and the m3 is more comfortable and quieter with more space which MOST people would use at some point.

again, the 911 shows its superiority on the track, and I track and that's why I own this car.

I also personally never consider what is or isn't flashy. I live in a large city with a lot of nice cars, my 911tt is nothing special nor is an m3.

that's my opinion having had both.
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      07-25-2013, 02:42 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by robotk View Post
Who seriously cross shops an m3 and a 991? This is a ridiculous comparison.
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Originally Posted by robotk View Post
What I'm mostly talking about is cross-shopping. I wonder how many people who have the means and the situation to get a 991, decided to instead get an m3 because it was a superior sports car. My initial post was really in response to the guy who said he shopped m3s and decided to get a C2S. It's borderline trollish to criticize the m3 in comparison to a 991, particularly a C2S. They just are not competitors - and they shouldn't be. Never mind the fact that the m3 is 6 years old. If the 991 is comparable in feel and dynamics to an m3, then that's a sad state of affairs for Porsche.
I think I would qualify as one of those people. I seriously wrestled with the decision for my daily driver between those two cars. I ultimately decided on the M3. In a perfect world, money would be no object - but in the real world to me it meant that the 911 I configured may not have every option I wanted, which did weigh on my decision. Even with my fully loaded M3, I'm at about $80k. With the 911, I budgeted myself at a negotiated price as close as I could to $100k. That doesn't buy you too much 911. At that price point, I felt the M3 was a better daily driver sports car. I did not compare them as track cars - as I have a dedicated Lotus Exige s260 as well.

I think there are a lot of cross shoppers, honestly. I think far fewer cross shopping a Carrera s with sport chrono, PDK, aero, audio, etc. The real cross shopping is the base 911 with few options.

In the end, they are both great cars. Some day I'll buy another Porsche (I've owned 3, but not 911s). Until then, I'm very happy with my m3 selection (obviously, I'm posting here) and think the m3 outdoes the 911 in many ways.

Of course the root discussion of driving dynamics... My nod goes to my Exige first, 911 second and m3 third. That said, the race between the base 911 and m3 is very close. Not until the much higher priced s models does that gap widen.

My $0.02...

-Scott
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