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      07-21-2013, 09:50 AM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Plutonium View Post
I actually compared the two... granted it was a supercharged M3, but I think they are in fact pretty close - even the stock M3. Yes, the 991 is better in every aspect, and I agree, they are not natural competitors, but the fact that many M3 owners move to a Porsche justifies a comparison in my opinion.

The new 991 even outperforms the 997.2 GT3, it is that good, and that's with electric steering, but it also made me realize that the M3 is almost a "bargain" when you look at its capabilities and price.
True, I know if I had the money I would cross shop them, for now I'm just happy to have been able to afford a used M3!! Right now, the current M3(6years old) is outperformed by the new 991 but I'm pretty sure when the new M4 will be released it will be faster then the 991 and give the 991S a run for it's money, and just that for me is a good reason to cross shop them, it's not because you have the money for the better toy that you actually want to spend it on it, specially if the new M4 gives 95% of the fun for 60% of the price of the 991S!!
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      07-21-2013, 10:21 AM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Plutonium View Post
I actually compared the two... granted it was a supercharged M3, but I think they are in fact pretty close - even the stock M3. Yes, the 991 is better in every aspect, and I agree, they are not natural competitors, but the fact that many M3 owners move to a Porsche justifies a comparison in my opinion.

The new 991 even outperforms the 997.2 GT3, it is that good, and that's with electric steering, but it also made me realize that the M3 is almost a "bargain" when you look at its capabilities and price.
What I'm mostly talking about is cross-shopping. I wonder how many people who have the means and the situation to get a 991, decided to instead get an m3 because it was a superior sports car. My initial post was really in response to the guy who said he shopped m3s and decided to get a C2S. It's borderline trollish to criticize the m3 in comparison to a 991, particularly a C2S. They just are not competitors - and they shouldn't be. Never mind the fact that the m3 is 6 years old. If the 991 is comparable in feel and dynamics to an m3, then that's a sad state of affairs for Porsche.
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      07-21-2013, 10:44 AM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JFWM3 View Post
The 911GT3 doesn't count, it's like comparing apples and oranges, and costs a lot more.

I am sure the 911S, which is not bread from pure sports car heritage by the way, is a better track car, and I am sure it is better on the autobahn. But most cars get on the track less than 1% of the time, and we don't have an autobahn in my area. So even if there is dispute on responsiveness and involvement, it is about $/performance.

My numbers may be off a little, but I will put it in a "it's all math" context.

Option 1
'10 Porsche 911s $75,000
Total $75,000


Option 2
'10 BMW M3 $45,000
M3 Mods (brakes, suspension, exhaust etc) $10,000
Dedicated track car (let's say a Skylline, but you pick) $12,000
Vegas weekend (not quite a hangover w/e, but hey) $ 5,000
Resoration Hardware Aviator Wing desk (I like to decorate) $ 2,880
Snuggie (why not) $ 20
Total $75,000

I'll take option 2.
I saw that wing desk too, it's boss.

The wife said, there is no way in hell we're decorating a room that way, though she conceded it'll look great in a man cave, but that would be one ballin man cave.
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      07-21-2013, 03:44 PM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robotk View Post
What I'm mostly talking about is cross-shopping. I wonder how many people who have the means and the situation to get a 991, decided to instead get an m3 because it was a superior sports car. My initial post was really in response to the guy who said he shopped m3s and decided to get a C2S. It's borderline trollish to criticize the m3 in comparison to a 991, particularly a C2S. They just are not competitors - and they shouldn't be. Never mind the fact that the m3 is 6 years old. If the 991 is comparable in feel and dynamics to an m3, then that's a sad state of affairs for Porsche.
I seriously crosshopped the m3, 991, gtr, maserati gt, and r8. I ended up with the 991 and love it, but no I dont think looking at a new m3 while looking at those other is ridiculous since they are all close in performance, price not withstanding.
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      07-21-2013, 05:06 PM   #93
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Agreed, I know and run into people who have considered and cross-shopped Porsches, BMWs, Audis, Mercs, Aston Martins, Maseratis, gtrs, Jags etc and could afford any of these cars, even if one is $50k+$70k more. I don't think everyone realizes that people especially who live in urban real estate constrained areas with limited parking take several things into consideration when buying a vehicle beyond sheer performance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OTJeebus View Post
I seriously crosshopped the m3, 991, gtr, maserati gt, and r8. I ended up with the 991 and love it, but no I dont think looking at a new m3 while looking at those other is ridiculous since they are all close in performance, price not withstanding.
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      07-21-2013, 06:24 PM   #94
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R8 v8 or v10 ?
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      07-21-2013, 08:24 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by M3Denver View Post
R8 v8 or v10 ?
Both but my 991 c2s is place holder for either a 991 gt3 or a 991 turbo. The r8 v8 was inferior to the c2s, and the v10 would be a replacement for 991 turbo for me, and consider the upcoming model change I didnt opt for it.
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      07-22-2013, 10:08 AM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robotk View Post
What I'm mostly talking about is cross-shopping. I wonder how many people who have the means and the situation to get a 991, decided to instead get an m3 because it was a superior sports car. My initial post was really in response to the guy who said he shopped m3s and decided to get a C2S. It's borderline trollish to criticize the m3 in comparison to a 991, particularly a C2S. They just are not competitors - and they shouldn't be. Never mind the fact that the m3 is 6 years old. If the 991 is comparable in feel and dynamics to an m3, then that's a sad state of affairs for Porsche.
Well it's obvious the e9x m3 isn't even in the same ball game as a 991. Track times are worlds apart, handling is clearly superior and straight line is 7-8 mph trap speed better and precision and quality are off the charts better. So yes not really comparable by any means.

The only thing the m3 can sometimes compare is straight line. I would venture to say in 2 more years when the 991 is 4 years old, the m3 MIGHT come close to the straight line speed of a 991 but won't be able to match it on the track much in the way as it was when our e9xs came out and could give a 997.1S a good run, but at that point the 997.1 was 4 years old!!

Bmw came out with the m3 gts which was brand new and couldn't even compete with a 5 year old gt3. It is clear that porsche is years ahead of bmw and everyone sans Ferrari (tie) in terms of sports cars and the 991 is no exception. It is still the bar to which all cars are judged by. And that fact that a 991S is as fast or faster than most 500-600 hp cars in a straight or on track shows you Porsches superiority in building cars that far exceed and outperform their "paper" stats.

In the end, our m3 is a great value and provides practically that a 911 won't, but a 911 provides performance, quality and feel/precision bmw will never have or match even with their best effort compared to Porsches "entry" level models let alone their best (GT) cars.

Furthermore, if you want a bargain, porsche, ferrari, lambo, Aston etc aren't going to give it to you. Their brands are too powerful and can command astronomical prices that bmw cannot, period. Porsches best value is a boxster a or cayman s which are two of if not the single two best handling cars in the world and are damn fast in a straight (even with relatively low hp) due to being so lightweight. But the handling and being able to carry the speed you can with those cars into corners is mind blowingly good and no car no matter the price is better!

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      07-22-2013, 12:23 PM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfinwolfsclothing View Post
Well it's obvious the e9x m3 isn't even in the same ball game as a 991. Track times are world apart, handling is clearly superior and straight line is 7-8 mph better and precision and quality are off the charts better. So yes not really comparable by any means.

The only thing the m3 can sometimes compare is straight line. I would venture to say in 2 more years when the 991 is 4 years old, the m3 MIGHT come close to the straight line speed of a 991 but won't be able to match it on the track much in the way as it was when our e9xs came out and could give a 997.1S a good run, but at that point the 997.1 was 4 years old!!

Bmw came out with the m3 gts which was brand new and couldn't even compete with a 5 year old gt3. It is clear that porsche is year ahead if bmw and everyone sans Ferrari (tie) in terms of sports cars and the 991 is no exception. It is still the bar to which all cars are judged by. And that fact that a 991S is as fast or faster than most 500-600 hp cars in a straight or on track shows you Porsches superiority in building cars that far exceed and outperform their "paper" stats.

In the end, our m3 is a great value and provides practically that a 911 won't, but a 911 provides performance, quality and feel/precision bmw will never have or match even with their best effort compared to Porsches "entry" level models let alone their best (GT) cars.

Furthermore, if you want a bargain, porsche, ferrari, lambo, Aston etc aren't going to give it to you. Their brands are too powerful and can command astronomical prices that bmw cannot, period. Porsches best value is a boxster a or cayman s which are two of if not the single two best handling cars in the world and are damn fast in a straight (even with relatively low hp) due to being so lightweight. But the handling and being able to carry the speed you can with those cars into corners is mind blowingly good and no car no matter the price is better!
well said
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      07-22-2013, 12:54 PM   #98
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everything I've seen in this thread about build quality with respect to Porsche is BS. my 997 had rattles in the interior starting at only 1,500 miles. as have all three of my Dad's 911's (which include a 996, a 997.2 and now a 991). also, the quality of little things like the turn signal and windshield wiper stalks are of way better quality in the BMW. I'm not even gonna get into the issue of the plastic on the climate controls wearing off on the 997 interiors, as it's well documented on the internet.
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      07-22-2013, 01:04 PM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brosef View Post
everything I've seen in this thread about build quality with respect to Porsche is BS. my 997 had rattles in the interior starting at only 1,500 miles. as have all three of my Dad's 911's (which include a 996, a 997.2 and now a 991). also, the quality of little things like the turn signal and windshield wiper stalks are of way better quality in the BMW. I'm not even gonna get into the issue of the plastic on the climate controls wearing off on the 997 interiors, as it's well documented on the internet.
I agree. As a former Porsche owner I can attest to the inferior quality when it comes to interior bits and pieces.
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      07-22-2013, 01:28 PM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brosef View Post
everything I've seen in this thread about build quality with respect to Porsche is BS. my 997 had rattles in the interior starting at only 1,500 miles. as have all three of my Dad's 911's (which include a 996, a 997.2 and now a 991). also, the quality of little things like the turn signal and windshield wiper stalks are of way better quality in the BMW. I'm not even gonna get into the issue of the plastic on the climate controls wearing off on the 997 interiors, as it's well documented on the internet.
I agree! The 997.2 is not above the M3 at all in build quality. The 991 maybe somewhat. My RS rattles, the seats are shaking, all kind of weird noises coming from the dash, etc.
Amazing how many threads are on this forum about the 911 recently. Admittedly I thought about trading in the M3 for a 991 C4S, I test drove both the C4S and C2S coupe / convertible and still could not make up my mind. Besides I need a low profile car to commute, the price difference is huge and the 991 just does not feel that special. It is a nice car but no drama, no excitement, does not feel like an occasion to drive it.
I think I will go with the Lucra LC470.
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      07-22-2013, 07:30 PM   #101
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Agree

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brosef View Post
everything I've seen in this thread about build quality with respect to Porsche is BS. my 997 had rattles in the interior starting at only 1,500 miles. as have all three of my Dad's 911's (which include a 996, a 997.2 and now a 991). also, the quality of little things like the turn signal and windshield wiper stalks are of way better quality in the BMW. I'm not even gonna get into the issue of the plastic on the climate controls wearing off on the 997 interiors, as it's well documented on the internet.
I completely agree
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      07-22-2013, 07:42 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by Endless619 View Post
And at the end of the day the Porsche lacks looks that blow me away. Nissan GTR is in the same boat. Good power, not awesome power and a 5/10 in the looks department. Not a car I would consider, but hey to each their own.

Porsche Carrera GT is a different animal.

I need both performance and looks.

Ohhh and a decent interior....

To be honest, been in plenty of gallardos and Murcis and their interiors were garbage. 991 is much better and only the new lambos can compare. Porsche ranks highest in quality and dependability and their interior design and quality is second to none.
As far as that gallardo interior, I'll pass, I can't stand their crappy Audi interior controls.
As far as looks, the 911 is and will always be one of the best looking on the road...new boxster and cayman too are amazing looking cars. Are they AS flashy as a f car or lambo, no. I have a buddy who owns countless cars...599 gtb, 458 coupe and 458 spyder, gt2 rs and will flat out tell you the best is the gt2 rs BY FAR but just isn't as in your face as the f cars even though it does gets loads of attention.

Again, to each their own, but I'd rather have a car that is so over engineered in every way and that has proven to be the single most dominant car in race history and that will always be the 911.
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      07-22-2013, 07:44 PM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brosef View Post
everything I've seen in this thread about build quality with respect to Porsche is BS. my 997 had rattles in the interior starting at only 1,500 miles. as have all three of my Dad's 911's (which include a 996, a 997.2 and now a 991). also, the quality of little things like the turn signal and windshield wiper stalks are of way better quality in the BMW. I'm not even gonna get into the issue of the plastic on the climate controls wearing off on the 997 interiors, as it's well documented on the internet.
I was about to go mad reading all these Porsche superior build quality stuffs. I thought I was the only one complaining about the turn signal and wiper stalks when I test drove the 991 C2S last year. They felt like Saab quality stuffs. That said, I am considering the new GT3 as a replacement for my M3. The C2S did not feel special at all and the new GT3 seems to have taken the game a much needed notch higher
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      07-22-2013, 08:25 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JFWM3 View Post
I took out a collegues Porsche 911 today.

Nice car, but God I love my M3. Even in stock form the M3 felt more responsive. But with the supercharger on the M3 it was night and day. The M3 just felt so much more reponsive in all aspects. When my collegue took my car out, his jaw just dropped.

My advice, if your thinking of trading your M3 for a Porsche 911/911S, just supercharge your car. You wont be disappointed!
Or get a GT3.
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      07-22-2013, 08:26 PM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by USCTrojanMan29
Quote:
Originally Posted by JFWM3 View Post
I took out a collegues Porsche 911 today.

Nice car, but God I love my M3. Even in stock form the M3 felt more responsive. But with the supercharger on the M3 it was night and day. The M3 just felt so much more reponsive in all aspects. When my collegue took my car out, his jaw just dropped.

My advice, if your thinking of trading your M3 for a Porsche 911/911S, just supercharge your car. You wont be disappointed!
Or get a GT3.
New GT3
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      07-22-2013, 09:56 PM   #106
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When is the GT3 coming out?
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      07-23-2013, 07:05 AM   #107
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got a 991 base carrera loaner. only option is pdk. seriously this car is an absolute riot. i really don't see the need for more power. it has plenty. grip and response is so impressive. i'm sure i am faster in this car than the m3 on the track. nothing can beat the feeling of lightness is has coupled with massive grip from 305 section width tires in the back. has me thinking on trading my e90 for one. kids are small still so they fit fine in the back.
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      07-23-2013, 09:54 AM   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karussell View Post
got a 991 base carrera loaner. only option is pdk. seriously this car is an absolute riot. i really don't see the need for more power. it has plenty. grip and response is so impressive. i'm sure i am faster in this car than the m3 on the track. nothing can beat the feeling of lightness is has coupled with massive grip from 305 section width tires in the back. has me thinking on trading my e90 for one. kids are small still so they fit fine in the back.
I felt the same way at the Porsche World Roadshow... the 991 base felt more confident on the track to me vs. the 991 2S as I don't have the talent that the GT3 purists claim to have I think a 4S might change my perspective but they didn't have one of those on hand to demo.
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      07-23-2013, 12:33 PM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karussell View Post
got a 991 base carrera loaner. only option is pdk. seriously this car is an absolute riot. i really don't see the need for more power. it has plenty. grip and response is so impressive. i'm sure i am faster in this car than the m3 on the track. nothing can beat the feeling of lightness is has coupled with massive grip from 305 section width tires in the back. has me thinking on trading my e90 for one. kids are small still so they fit fine in the back.
Totally agree. Base 991 is a hell of a car but too many people are concerned with power they can't handle and can't use. I doubt anyone on this forum with a supercharged car can handle even a stock m3 at 10/10ths on the track with dsc fully off.
A 991 has much higher limits than an m3 (i.e. m3 at 10/10 = 991 at 8/10)and the 991 is so easy to drive fast you'd surely be faster on the track over an m3 and you don't need to worry about changing pads or anything before going like you need to the m3. Some people don't see that huge unmistakable difference out of the box.
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      07-23-2013, 12:48 PM   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfinwolfsclothing
Quote:
Originally Posted by karussell View Post
got a 991 base carrera loaner. only option is pdk. seriously this car is an absolute riot. i really don't see the need for more power. it has plenty. grip and response is so impressive. i'm sure i am faster in this car than the m3 on the track. nothing can beat the feeling of lightness is has coupled with massive grip from 305 section width tires in the back. has me thinking on trading my e90 for one. kids are small still so they fit fine in the back.
Totally agree. Base 991 is a hell of a car but too many people are concerned with power they can't handle and can't use. I doubt anyone on this forum with a supercharged car can handle even a stock m3 at 10/10ths on the track with dsc fully off.
A 991 has much higher limits than an m3 (i.e. m3 at 10/10 = 991 at 8/10)and the 991 is so easy to drive fast you'd surely be faster on the track over an m3 and you don't need to worry about changing pads or anything before going like you need to the m3. Some people don't see that huge unmistakable difference out of the box.
I've seen miatas passing M3s on the track.
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