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      07-11-2013, 09:38 PM   #1
M3 Esq
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Has anyone had any experience with the BFG R1 and heat cycling? According to the R1 "Care and Feeding" brochure, BFG states the following:

"Heat cycling can benefit the BFGoodrich g-Force R1 by helping it perform more consistently over periods of constant extended use. In addition, on-track heat cycling adds texture to the smooth surface of your new R compound tires. The process is painless. Simply run a few laps to get the tire up to operating temperature (160F-220F) and pressure, then allow the tires to sit off the car for 24 hours. That’s it."

Well, the process is not really painless in the DE context because I am paying for the track time. I am not clear on what is meant by "extended periods of use" but i assume this would apply more to racing and not DE as we typically run 20-25 minute sessions. So would this even apply for DE applications? I called BFG but was referred to the race division. I left a voicemail there and also sent an email to the supplied email address but was referred back to this brochure.

This was sort of a last minute purchase so I could not get the set heat cycled by TR in time for my event tomorrow. Pick your poison I guess. Is heat cycling really necessary? My plan was to run them one session and change back to street tires. If someone can convince me that heat cycling is not really necessary, I may just run them right out of the box.

I am probably way over-thinking this but it is an interesting topic. Any feedback is much appreciated.
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      07-12-2013, 06:58 PM   #2
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Ok so I ran the R1s today, 4 sessions and no heat cycling on the advice of my instructor. He's a club racer and runs the R1s on his race car. His opinion was that yeah maybe I'd get little more life out of them if I heat cycled them but his experience was that this is a very durable tire and they will last a while regardless. I will track my heat cycles and report back.

As for my experience on these tires, this is my first time running r-compounds. It took some adjustment but wow these grip like crazy. I was able to brake much later and was running very quick but they seemed to get overheated half way through my sessions. I kept an eye on the pressures and was running them around 38-39 psi hot. I am also have stock suspension and no camber plates (only maxing out stock camber) so maybe that's why. I probably need more like -2.5 to -3.0 to run these effectively. It will be fun getting it dialed in though!
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      07-12-2013, 08:26 PM   #3
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I'm trying my first set of BFG R1s tomorrow at Barber Motorsports Park, moving from the Nitto NT01s after dealing with the tread splice issues. All my track buddies are running these and like them a lot. I, too, wanted to get my tires heat cycled from the start for longevity but my supplier kind of poo-pooed it and only had un-heat cycled tires at his warehouse...

So, I put them on one day last week and drove them on the highway (on a dry sunny afternoon) for about 30 minutes at 70-80 mph to bring them up to temp. I then drove right over to my local twisty road (the same road I bed my brakes on) for about 15 minutes to further heat and scuff the tires. My whole goal was not to thermally "shock" the tires but bring them to operating temps in a steady, controlled manner. I then took the tires off and stored them in the basement for a few days. And now here I am.

Tomorrow will be my first track sessions on them. I'm not sure if I really accomplished anything by doing this but who knows. We'll see....
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      07-12-2013, 09:14 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sleeper519
I'm trying my first set of BFG R1s tomorrow at Barber Motorsports Park, moving from the Nitto NT01s after dealing with the tread splice issues. All my track buddies are running these and like them a lot. I, too, wanted to get my tires heat cycled from the start for longevity but my supplier kind of poo-pooed it and only had un-heat cycled tires at his warehouse...

So, I put them on one day last week and drove them on the highway (on a dry sunny afternoon) for about 30 minutes at 70-80 mph to bring them up to temp. I then drove right over to my local twisty road (the same road I bed my brakes on) for about 15 minutes to further heat and scuff the tires. My whole goal was not to thermally "shock" the tires but bring them to operating temps in a steady, controlled manner. I then took the tires off and stored them in the basement for a few days. And now here I am.

Tomorrow will be my first track sessions on them. I'm not sure if I really accomplished anything by doing this but who knows. We'll see....
Go easy in your first session. These will not give you any audible feedback at the limit. I slid them in my second session with DSC off. Looking back on it there was plenty of warning through the seat and wheel but I was not prepared at the time. I adjusted accordingly and they were fine the rest of the day.

Great tires though. You're going to love them!

Last edited by M3 Esq; 07-12-2013 at 09:31 PM.
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      07-13-2013, 06:03 AM   #5
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Re transitioning from NT-01 to the R1 -- take note of what was stated above about audible feedback. The NT-01 will sing and then howl when you reach and go over peak limits. The R1 will be mostly silent but sometimes in slow speed stuff you'll get squeaks from them. However, the level of feedback in the wheel and your butt/gut is very high with the R1 imo. They are great tires to drive on, so focus on that feedback, the kinesthetic feedback.

You will generate a lot more heat in the brakes, so race pads, fresh Motul or other, and Ti shims are a necessity.

In the past, I've been through 4 sets of R1s, one of which was officially heat cycled by TR, and I honestly saw no difference in the TR heat cycled tires. Then again, I wasn't keeping detailed track of heat cycles and such...just using them for HPDE and autox.
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      07-15-2013, 11:28 PM   #6
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hey guys what sizes BFG R1 are you running?

My NT01 are almost done and I will be switching to R1 next.

I bought a set of lightly used set of two 285/35/18 BFG R1 from a fellow member which I will mount on my rear 18x10 and then am planning to order two 265/35/18 for my fronts.. I have KW Clubsports with -2.5F and -2R .. ride height is set to as close to stock as possible.

I hope I won't get any rubbing.
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      07-15-2013, 11:34 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by w00tw00t View Post
hey guys what sizes BFG R1 are you running?

My NT01 are almost done and I will be switching to R1 next.

I bought a set of lightly used set of two 285/35/18 BFG R1 from a fellow member which I will mount on my rear 18x10 and then am planning to order two 265/35/18 for my fronts.. I have KW Clubsports with -2.5F and -2R .. ride height is set to as close to stock as possible.

I hope I won't get any rubbing.
may need 5mm spacer up front. I have KW CS with -3/-2 and it rubs slightly up front with 275 conti slicks on 18x10 apex; no rubbing with spacer (5mm).
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      07-15-2013, 11:51 PM   #8
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may need 5mm spacer up front. I have KW CS with -3/-2 and it rubs slightly up front with 275 conti slicks on 18x10 apex; no rubbing with spacer (5mm).
yep I have a 5mm spacer upfront already..
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      07-16-2013, 09:45 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by w00tw00t
hey guys what sizes BFG R1 are you running?

My NT01 are almost done and I will be switching to R1 next.

I bought a set of lightly used set of two 285/35/18 BFG R1 from a fellow member which I will mount on my rear 18x10 and then am planning to order two 265/35/18 for my fronts.. I have KW Clubsports with -2.5F and -2R .. ride height is set to as close to stock as possible.

I hope I won't get any rubbing.
Are your front wheels the same size and off set? If so I would test fit the 285 on the front. It should rub on the back fender liner at the least. I don't know if it would rub on the KW. It would be nice if you could run square. I know of one other running 280 yoko square, KW club sport but completely dumped. There might be some spacers involved.....just ask him.
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      07-16-2013, 06:34 PM   #10
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yep I have a 5mm spacer upfront already..
My bet is you'll be fine then.
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      07-17-2013, 09:27 AM   #11
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Monday I ran with SCDA at LRP and it was my second day on these tires. I ran Int 2, no instructor for my first session with MDM on. Results were mixed and I felt like I was really fighting the car.

I ran a couple laps to get them up to temp, then they would be fine for like 5 or 6 good laps, then they became greasy. I would ease back for a lap or two, then start driving fast again they would come back, but then get greasy again after a couple fast laps. The car was pushing hard through the left hander and the DSC light was blinking. So I adjusted my line and used less throttle input to get the car to turn in. It felt much better.

I left MDM on for the entire day (I was nervous with no instructor) and now realize it was interfering way too much, expecially at the downhill. The light was blinking like crazy there and the tires felt very inconsistent throughout the day. I guess it's time to run DSC off.

I was also taking pyrometer readings throughout the day and the tire temps seemed low. However, I was taking the readings after coming into the paddock and driving around to my parking spot. Twice I came off early with no cooldown lap just to try to get as accurate readings as possible. I won't post all of my temp readings, but they were all sub 160 degrees. Ambient temps at the track were 88-91 degrees. I played around with the pressures a bit, running between 36-38 psi hot.

I left the track feeling very discouraged. Any feedback would be appreciated...

Last edited by M3 Esq; 07-17-2013 at 09:40 AM.
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      07-17-2013, 10:01 AM   #12
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I really don't see the point of running slicks and MDM on. It sounds like you are not ready for slicks.

Don't worry about it, I am not either.

Although I appreciate running MDM off makes a huge difference to the car feel and a couple of seconds off your lap time, at the end of the day I am driving my DD around and after dealing with the consequences of a minor/lucky off, I am going to keep it on and waste brake pads. My minor shunt cost $3400 (track ins deductible) to fix. For that I can by ~11 sets of front pads and 3 sets of rears - about 8 years of tracking at my current rate.

Reasonably, if I want to run with all the nannies off, I think I need to have much more experience and regular practice than my 6-8 tracks days a year can provide...or a dedicated track car I don't mind missing with.

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      07-17-2013, 10:11 AM   #13
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I really don't see the point of running slicks and MDM on. It sounds like you are not ready for slicks.
Don't worry about it, I am not either.

Although I appreciate running MDM off makes a huge difference to the car feel and a couple of seconds off your lap time, at the end of the day I am driving my DD around and after dealing with the consequences of a minor/lucky off, I am going to keep it on and waste brake pads. My minor shunt cost $3400 (track ins deductible) to fix. For that I can by ~11 sets of front pads and 3 sets of rears - about 8 years of tracking at my current rate.

Reasonably, if I want to run with all the nannies off, I think I need to have much more experience and regular practice than my 6-8 tracks days a year can provide...or a dedicated track car I don't mind missing with.

This is what I was worried about, but I have the tires now so it's time to man up and learn to drive on them. I ran DSC off all day on Friday, and was fine, even signed off solo for the last session. The tires still felt inconsistent though, but not as bad as on Monday.
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      07-17-2013, 10:13 AM   #14
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I would say that if you are up to running an R1 on the track, you should be *long* past the point of using chassis nannies. Long past...seriously. I would say that using MDM DSC is leading to very poor driving habits at this stage. You will "learn" how the "car" responds but in fact are not learning how the real car responds -- just the artificially induced guess that DSC provides while it also adds unwanted heat in your brakes, especially the rears, as it's doing its thing. Drivers develop steering input habits and especially throttle application habits that become extremely dependent on a nanny, and therefore create horribly artificial skills that provide anything but experience in car control.

It also sounds like your hot pressures probably went too high if things got greasy, but trying to evaluate that fully with DSC in play is also not easy as DSC will allow you to generate a lot more heat input into the tires than would be "normal" if the car was being purely driven.
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      07-17-2013, 10:24 AM   #15
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I would say that if you are up to running an R1 on the track, you should be *long* past the point of using chassis nannies. Long past...seriously. I would say that using MDM DSC is leading to very poor driving habits at this stage. You will "learn" how the "car" responds but in fact are not learning how the real car responds -- just the artificially induced guess that DSC provides while it also adds unwanted heat in your brakes, especially the rears, as it's doing its thing. Drivers develop steering input habits and especially throttle application habits that become extremely dependent on a nanny, and therefore create horribly artificial skills that provide anything but experience in car control.

It also sounds like your hot pressures probably went too high if things got greasy, but trying to evaluate that fully with DSC in play is also not easy as DSC will allow you to generate a lot more heat input into the tires than would be "normal" if the car was being purely driven.
I agree, maybe I jumped too R-Comps too quick, and that's what worries me after spending $$ on these tires. As for tire temps, I agree that they felt overheated, but then why were my pyrometer readings so low? Like I said I ran DSC full off Friday, and the tires still felt inconsistent. Pressures in the paddock (checked immedietly after parking) were always between 36-39 psi hot.
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      07-17-2013, 10:31 AM   #16
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I agree, maybe I jumped too R-Comps too quick, and that's what worries me after spending $$ on these tires. As for tire temps, I agree that they felt overheated, but then why were my pyrometer readings so low? Like I said I ran DSC full off Friday, and the tires still felt inconsistent. Pressures in the paddock (checked immedietly after parking) were always between 36-39 psi hot.
Not sure really. Hot pressures in that range sound ok. I'd have to drive the car to really comment on it as something else might be at play here (i.e. worn bushing deflection, etc).

I wouldn't worry about jumping too quick necessarily, especially if you have a good background in autocross. Carry along a virtual instructor in your solo sessions who is constantly calling your vision control, offering inputs and feedback, etc, and focus on the basics. Drive the car well within its limits while becoming used to over-the-top responses in areas that won't bite you hard.
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      07-17-2013, 10:41 AM   #17
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Not sure really. Hot pressures in that range sound ok. I'd have to drive the car to really comment on it as something else might be at play here (i.e. worn bushing deflection, etc).

I wouldn't worry about jumping too quick necessarily, especially if you have a good background in autocross. Carry along a virtual instructor in your solo sessions who is constantly calling your vision control, offering inputs and feedback, etc, and focus on the basics. Drive the car well within its limits while becoming used to over-the-top responses in areas that won't bite you hard.
Thank you, this is constructive. My plan is to learn on these tires.

It can't be worn bushings, the car doesn't even have 5K miles. It's practically brand new. I was thinking the springs are too soft/not enough negative camber? Just not sure what to do with the pyrometer data at this point. I realize the tires will cool a bit coming into the paddock, but this much? This is my first time using a Pyrometer btw.

Here is a sample from my last session:

LF 144 (Outside) 143 (Middle) 148 (Inside) 37 PSI (Hot)
LR 144/153/158 36 PSI
RF 130/139/146 36 PSI
RR 131/149/151 37 PSI
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      07-17-2013, 11:48 AM   #18
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Those front pressures look like they are swapped as the outer edges should be the hottest. If your suspension is stock or close to it, then I'm sure you could use a lot more negative camber up front on the track. Also, if the alignment isn't set properly, you could be feeling some squirreliness from too much toe out up front and especially if the rear has too little toe-in or actual toe out.

If the alignment is good, the tires look good (tread face ok, edges ok, nothing untoward), I'd just focus on those basics and have fun. I always find almost everyone getting slack on vision...if they're trying to always look ahead, then they're object fixating on stuff ahead and losing the visual cues to the brain that scan ahead and back vision offers, etc. Especially when things get hairy, the natural human reaction is to look where the car is going as opposed to where you want it to go. So I always make vision habits, whether on a track or an autocross course, one of the number one things to focus on.

Carrying on, those vision habits will yield a finely tuned butt-o-meter that learns, intuitively, yaw amount and rate of change. For example, imagine a huge "tank slapper" (to borrow age-old motocross lingo) at high speed with almost complete opposite lock needed at each extreme to prevent a spin/loss of control. Now imagine your vision focused way down the center of the track the entire time while your hands, feet and butt respond perfectly. I can visualize my eyes and head going from side-to-side while the car yaws back and forth, but that vision point is the anchor...like a twirling skater I guess.

I digress...you're probably fine with the R1s as long as you are conservative and keep the wild side in check. The R1 actually provides fantastic feedback through the wheel and butt for an R-comp...much better than some others. It doesn't howl like an NT-01 as you approach/exceed the limits, so you have to hone your kinesthetic senses coupled with that vision to know when you're close or beyond. Ideally, you could experience them in an environment where you can exceed their limits continually and get a good feel for controlling them (i.e. an autocross, a skidpad, etc).
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      07-17-2013, 12:26 PM   #19
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Those front pressures look like they are swapped as the outer edges should be the hottest. If your suspension is stock or close to it, then I'm sure you could use a lot more negative camber up front on the track. Also, if the alignment isn't set properly, you could be feeling some squirreliness from too much toe out up front and especially if the rear has too little toe-in or actual toe out.

If the alignment is good, the tires look good (tread face ok, edges ok, nothing untoward), I'd just focus on those basics and have fun. I always find almost everyone getting slack on vision...if they're trying to always look ahead, then they're object fixating on stuff ahead and losing the visual cues to the brain that scan ahead and back vision offers, etc. Especially when things get hairy, the natural human reaction is to look where the car is going as opposed to where you want it to go. So I always make vision habits, whether on a track or an autocross course, one of the number one things to focus on.

Carrying on, those vision habits will yield a finely tuned butt-o-meter that learns, intuitively, yaw amount and rate of change. For example, imagine a huge "tank slapper" (to borrow age-old motocross lingo) at high speed with almost complete opposite lock needed at each extreme to prevent a spin/loss of control. Now imagine your vision focused way down the center of the track the entire time while your hands, feet and butt respond perfectly. I can visualize my eyes and head going from side-to-side while the car yaws back and forth, but that vision point is the anchor...like a twirling skater I guess.

I digress...you're probably fine with the R1s as long as you are conservative and keep the wild side in check. The R1 actually provides fantastic feedback through the wheel and butt for an R-comp...much better than some others. It doesn't howl like an NT-01 as you approach/exceed the limits, so you have to hone your kinesthetic senses coupled with that vision to know when you're close or beyond. Ideally, you could experience them in an environment where you can exceed their limits continually and get a good feel for controlling them (i.e. an autocross, a skidpad, etc).
This is great feedback, thank you. I actually am pretty good about keeping my eyes up, although still somewhat inconsistent at this point in my experience level (about 10 total track days). I work on looking ahead on in every session and on the street as well.

As for the pyrometer reading, I have not swapped the inside readings for the outside, and that is what is confusing. I was expecting to see the outside temps being higher than the inside, but it was the exact opposite. The outside temps were consistently lower than the inside. The tires appeared to wear evenly however I did notice some deposits on the tread. My tread is not smooth like my friends Hoosiers. I ended up with a lot of rubber deposits, especially on the inside.

I had an alignment done last week at my BMW dealership, asking them to maximize negative camber within factory specs. I think I ended up with something like -1.34 RF and -1.16 LF. The suspension is completely stock.

Last edited by M3 Esq; 07-17-2013 at 12:44 PM.
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      07-17-2013, 12:31 PM   #20
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Did they take out the alignment pins in order the slide the struts all the way to the inside? Richbot (think it was him) has a good DIY thread on here. I've pulled the pins on my M3 but haven't had it on the rack yet.

Sounds like the alignment is maybe ok as long as they did it correctly.

I have no explanation for those front tire pressures as they would seem to indicate too much front negative camber, if anything (although the LF seems basically even), but that doesn't make sense in my experience, particularly at the camber levels you quoted.
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      07-17-2013, 12:57 PM   #21
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Did they take out the alignment pins in order the slide the struts all the way to the inside? Richbot (think it was him) has a good DIY thread on here. I've pulled the pins on my M3 but haven't had it on the rack yet.

Sounds like the alignment is maybe ok as long as they did it correctly.

I have no explanation for those front tire pressures as they would seem to indicate too much front negative camber, if anything (although the LF seems basically even), but that doesn't make sense in my experience, particularly at the camber levels you quoted.
I have seen brother Richbot's DIY but have not tried pulling the pins yet. I wanted to try the factory alignment first, take the pyrometer readings, and see what it told me.
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      07-17-2013, 04:21 PM   #22
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I tried out the BFG R1Ss this last weekend at Barber Motorsports Park in Birmingham. I really liked them a lot. LOADS of grip! A noticeable step up from the NT-01s (which I previously loved). Best lap time improved by 3.5 sec to 1:42.20, which is a huge jump for just new tires, everything else being the same. Was running 265/35/18 square w/ ST BBK and Pagid RS29s with DSC off. The increase grip levels were actually trying to overwhelm the brakes, giving me a touch of fade near the end of the sessions, which rarely occurs with this setup. May need those cooling ducts after all. Go figure. I was running pretty decent slip angles but the feel is excellent. They do make a little noise at the limit but mostly, as people have said, its tactile and kinesthetic in the seat and steering wheel. I was trail braking alot and had some corner-exit-power-oversteer moments but nothing ugly, very predictable.

I really like these tires so far but my only qualm is longevity. I got 12 days out of my first set of NT-01s, 8 days out of the second set. I HAVE to get at least 6 days out of these R1Ss, hopefully >8. The NT-01s were awesome right before they corded. I don't know about being limited by the number of heat cycles here with the R1s--sounds kind of nebulous.
So..back to the OP, I hope that my poor-man's heat cycling will have some benefit to tire life. Stay tuned.

__________________

2008 M3 Coupe / DCT // StopTech BBK 380/355 / Pagid RS29 / Motul / Apex Arc-8 / BFG R1S / Ground Control / MS filter / Performance spoiler / BPM tune // Road Atlanta 1:39.80 / VIR Full 2:12.32 / Barber 1:42.20

Last edited by Sleeper519; 07-17-2013 at 08:21 PM. Reason: No URL
Sleeper519 is offline   United_States
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