BMW M3 Forum (E90 E92)

BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   M3Post - BMW M3 Forum > E90/E92 M3 Technical Topics > Engine, Transmission, Exhaust, Drivetrain, ECU Software Modifications
 
INDustry distribution
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      07-13-2013, 12:16 AM   #1
Skooterbrah
First Lieutenant
Skooterbrah's Avatar
31
Rep
345
Posts

Drives: 08 alpine white dct
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Colorado

iTrader: (0)

ESS 625 pulley swap results! Dyno inside

Well, a few of you may have seen a previous post about my rant on elevation and boost up here in Colorado. We definitely get shafted out of a lot of power, so myself and Andrew @ AR Design started going back and forth with ideas to compensate for the drop of static compression and air density. After throwing some ideas around we decided to drop pulley sizes, and ended up doing so twice.

Here is the sheet from the supplied ESS 625 3.8" pulley. Compared to my run when the car was full exhaust, intake. We saw a decent jump from 345 to 526 wheel hp (corrected mind you) This was on 6psi peak.



After seeing corrected numbers (low 400 wheel) and the car feeling lackluster for being supercharged, we decided to throw around some options and did some research and spoke with some tuners. We opted for a slightly smaller pulley and wanted to see how the DMU would react with fuel. We dropped from the 3.8" to the 3.6". We saw an increase of boost from 6psi to 7psi and power went from 526 to 565. Fueling was consistent and safe (11's) across the board with AFR's.



Well, since we found out the DMU would auto compensate (not sure if this is factory, or a byproduct of the ESS 625 tune) we decided to take a leap of faith today. We bumped down from the 3.6" to a 3.2" pulley. Boost raised from 7psi to 9psi and once again, the DMU compensated fuel and she was sitting around high 11's AFR through the power. Power jumped from 565 to 613 and it was hot as hell out today.




Very happy with results. Next step, we are overhauling the intercooling system with a trunk mounted reservoir and a larger heat exchanger.


Here is a dyno with a run when i first got her, 100% bone stock vs how she sits today at 9psi





__________________
-08 E92 Brushed Steel DCT-
KW V3's - AR Design - Volk TE37 - Vorsteiner - ESS/AR 700
-2012 GTR Premium-
Jacks 3.8 - Jacks Drag 800 w/ billet gears - AAM GT-900R - Swift - DPE ST7's - Ecutek via Visconti - 9.4 @150mph 7200ft DA - 185.5mph 1/2 mile 9240ft DA
Appreciate 0
      07-13-2013, 12:22 AM   #2
Chriskm3
Colonel
Chriskm3's Avatar
Canada
39
Rep
2,209
Posts

Drives: M3
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Toronto

iTrader: (4)

Great. I guess it's time to change the rod bearings with that much boost. Great whp numbers. I'm Gona try swapping mine out.
__________________
Vf supercharger + tune/H&R coils/ Akra evolution exhaust/Volk te37/ Rs-3 tires/ Brembos /TIal BOV/ OSS blacked out headlights/LUX v3/Led taillights/ Challenge Front lip/ P3 vent gauge/ F10 m5 shift mob/Matte black front grills/ And a funky air fresher
Appreciate 0
      07-13-2013, 01:01 AM   #3
OM VT3
Lieutenant Colonel
OM VT3's Avatar
81
Rep
1,632
Posts

Drives: 2011 e92 zcp m3
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Somewhere

iTrader: (1)

thats sick i wanna see what you guys do with this!
Appreciate 0
      07-13-2013, 01:18 AM   #4
Tim B.
Lieutenant
10
Rep
562
Posts

Drives: 2010 Jet Black E92 M3
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Baton Rouge, LA

iTrader: (0)

Do you simply swap out pulley belts or do you also have to tweak the software ?
Appreciate 0
      07-13-2013, 01:21 AM   #5
SYZ
Lieutenant
SYZ's Avatar
19
Rep
456
Posts

Drives: :O
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Scottsdale

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
great corrected numbers. Whats your uncorrected number though? That number will tell you whether you're in dangerous territory or not.
Appreciate 0
      07-13-2013, 01:28 AM   #6
Skooterbrah
First Lieutenant
Skooterbrah's Avatar
31
Rep
345
Posts

Drives: 08 alpine white dct
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Colorado

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim B. View Post
Do you simply swap out pulley belts or do you also have to tweak the software ?
This is on the ESS 625 software. The DME is adapting the the increased air the MAP is seeing and adding fuel where needed. We did have to move down to a smaller belt when we dropped the 3.2" pulley in.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SYZ View Post
great corrected numbers. Whats your uncorrected number though? That number will tell you whether you're in dangerous territory or not.
Uncorrected numbers are 494hp and 317tq on 9psi. I hate Colorado so much. Andrew wants to go even smaller on the pulley and ramp boost to 11-12psi since we still havent even come close to hitting what guys at sea level are uncorrected.
__________________
-08 E92 Brushed Steel DCT-
KW V3's - AR Design - Volk TE37 - Vorsteiner - ESS/AR 700
-2012 GTR Premium-
Jacks 3.8 - Jacks Drag 800 w/ billet gears - AAM GT-900R - Swift - DPE ST7's - Ecutek via Visconti - 9.4 @150mph 7200ft DA - 185.5mph 1/2 mile 9240ft DA
Appreciate 0
      07-13-2013, 01:43 AM   #7
SYZ
Lieutenant
SYZ's Avatar
19
Rep
456
Posts

Drives: :O
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Scottsdale

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skooterbrah View Post

Uncorrected numbers are 494hp and 317tq on 9psi. I hate Colorado so much. Andrew wants to go even smaller on the pulley and ramp boost to 11-12psi since we still havent even come close to hitting what guys at sea level are uncorrected.
If you're never going to drive the car at a lower altitude, then go for it!
Appreciate 0
      07-13-2013, 01:58 AM   #8
Skooterbrah
First Lieutenant
Skooterbrah's Avatar
31
Rep
345
Posts

Drives: 08 alpine white dct
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Colorado

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SYZ View Post
If you're never going to drive the car at a lower altitude, then go for it!
My concern is the 12:1. I know static compression is lower at 6k elevation, but running 10+ psi on the 12:1 block would throw alot of stress on her, even if the uncorrected numbers are still lower then 625 guys at sea level. If I am wrong about this, and I can infact safely push her to 550 uncorrected then I would love to. Any engineers/tuners care to chime in here????
__________________
-08 E92 Brushed Steel DCT-
KW V3's - AR Design - Volk TE37 - Vorsteiner - ESS/AR 700
-2012 GTR Premium-
Jacks 3.8 - Jacks Drag 800 w/ billet gears - AAM GT-900R - Swift - DPE ST7's - Ecutek via Visconti - 9.4 @150mph 7200ft DA - 185.5mph 1/2 mile 9240ft DA
Appreciate 0
      07-13-2013, 10:44 AM   #9
sales@ESSTuning
sales@ESSTuning's Avatar
224
Rep
3,154
Posts

Drives: ESS M3 / M4
Join Date: May 2007
Location: AZ

iTrader: (6)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skooterbrah View Post
My concern is the 12:1. I know static compression is lower at 6k elevation, but running 10+ psi on the 12:1 block would throw alot of stress on her, even if the uncorrected numbers are still lower then 625 guys at sea level. If I am wrong about this, and I can infact safely push her to 550 uncorrected then I would love to. Any engineers/tuners care to chime in here????
Just because the car makes power and has AFR's that are ok the fact is that our software has different ignition mapping that adds safety as you increase boost. Your dynamic CR will be lower at altitude but that does not mean you can simply add as much boost as you want and the motor will be safe. As you increase boost you often need to lower your timing and this is one of the things we do in our higher HP kits for proper safety margin. Without knowing exactly what your dynamic CR is at your altitude there is no way for you to know if the fuel you are running has high enough octane, if the software you are running has proper timing or if the motor is being exposed to CR levels that are unsafe. The reality is you might be safe but you also might be sitting on a ticking time bomb.

By simply lowering the diameter of the SC pulley to increase boost you have reduced the traction of the belt which will eventually cause the belt to slip. This is often the case over time as the belt stretches from wear. On the VT2-650 kit which runs 8 psi we designed a custom crank pulley so that a larger diameter pulley can be used on the SC allowing for proper belt drive traction.

We have had several customers over the years modify our kits to add more boost than the kit was intended to run and more than the motor can safely handle. Software and motor safety in almost all of these cases was overlooked as most do not feel it is important as long as the car is making power. While the initial results were positive and the cars made a lot more power the end results often ended in damaged motors. I will tell you the same thing I tell every customer who wants to modify our kits and experiment with their motors. Make sure you have enough money to buy a new motor if things go wrong. If you do and putting a new motor in your car is not a big deal for you then do what you want.
Appreciate 0
      07-14-2013, 06:34 PM   #10
Skooterbrah
First Lieutenant
Skooterbrah's Avatar
31
Rep
345
Posts

Drives: 08 alpine white dct
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Colorado

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roman@ESS View Post
Just because the car makes power and has AFR's that are ok the fact is that our software has different ignition mapping that adds safety as you increase boost. Your dynamic CR will be lower at altitude but that does not mean you can simply add as much boost as you want and the motor will be safe. As you increase boost you often need to lower your timing and this is one of the things we do in our higher HP kits for proper safety margin. Without knowing exactly what your dynamic CR is at your altitude there is no way for you to know if the fuel you are running has high enough octane, if the software you are running has proper timing or if the motor is being exposed to CR levels that are unsafe. The reality is you might be safe but you also might be sitting on a ticking time bomb.

By simply lowering the diameter of the SC pulley to increase boost you have reduced the traction of the belt which will eventually cause the belt to slip. This is often the case over time as the belt stretches from wear. On the VT2-650 kit which runs 8 psi we designed a custom crank pulley so that a larger diameter pulley can be used on the SC allowing for proper belt drive traction.

We have had several customers over the years modify our kits to add more boost than the kit was intended to run and more than the motor can safely handle. Software and motor safety in almost all of these cases was overlooked as most do not feel it is important as long as the car is making power. While the initial results were positive and the cars made a lot more power the end results often ended in damaged motors. I will tell you the same thing I tell every customer who wants to modify our kits and experiment with their motors. Make sure you have enough money to buy a new motor if things go wrong. If you do and putting a new motor in your car is not a big deal for you then do what you want.

I understand what you're saying, but keep in mind, the stress/power differential at altitude is substantial. Guys at sea level making 550-600 UNCORRECTED wheel with these kits, while me at 9psi, I am still in the 400's uncorrected. There is substantially less stress being throw at my engine comparatively.
__________________
-08 E92 Brushed Steel DCT-
KW V3's - AR Design - Volk TE37 - Vorsteiner - ESS/AR 700
-2012 GTR Premium-
Jacks 3.8 - Jacks Drag 800 w/ billet gears - AAM GT-900R - Swift - DPE ST7's - Ecutek via Visconti - 9.4 @150mph 7200ft DA - 185.5mph 1/2 mile 9240ft DA
Appreciate 0
      07-14-2013, 07:04 PM   #11
Skooterbrah
First Lieutenant
Skooterbrah's Avatar
31
Rep
345
Posts

Drives: 08 alpine white dct
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Colorado

iTrader: (0)

And here is an overlapped dyno of the ESS 625 "factory" 3.8 vs 3.6 vs 3.2 pullies

A solid 89hp and 51tq jump from 3psi increase.

__________________
-08 E92 Brushed Steel DCT-
KW V3's - AR Design - Volk TE37 - Vorsteiner - ESS/AR 700
-2012 GTR Premium-
Jacks 3.8 - Jacks Drag 800 w/ billet gears - AAM GT-900R - Swift - DPE ST7's - Ecutek via Visconti - 9.4 @150mph 7200ft DA - 185.5mph 1/2 mile 9240ft DA
Appreciate 0
      07-14-2013, 07:57 PM   #12
Longboarder
Major General
663
Rep
5,349
Posts

Drives: 2016 BMW i8
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Monarch Beach

iTrader: (1)

Garage List
Nice delta for sure. I really hope the higher altitude is relieving the stress from the higher boost.
__________________
Daily: 2016 i8 Chrystal White w/BMW iBlue / Terra World
Airstrip: 2015 991 Turbo S / FBO meth upgraded turbos
Track: 2015 991 GT3 / GT Silver, carbon bucket seats, steel brakes, red accents
Beaterz: 2013 X5 3.5 Sport, 2015 Wrangler Unlimited
IG: longboarder949; YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCT1...eoFBszPIK0gf9w
Appreciate 0
      07-14-2013, 08:00 PM   #13
Skooterbrah
First Lieutenant
Skooterbrah's Avatar
31
Rep
345
Posts

Drives: 08 alpine white dct
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Colorado

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Longboarder View Post
Nice delta for sure. I really hope the higher altitude is relieving the stress from the higher boost.
I would imagine so, considering my 613 corrected is still in the 400's corrected at 6000ft elevation. I don't think I would ever be able to get similar uncorrected numbers (compared to the sea level 625 guys) up here with this blower.
__________________
-08 E92 Brushed Steel DCT-
KW V3's - AR Design - Volk TE37 - Vorsteiner - ESS/AR 700
-2012 GTR Premium-
Jacks 3.8 - Jacks Drag 800 w/ billet gears - AAM GT-900R - Swift - DPE ST7's - Ecutek via Visconti - 9.4 @150mph 7200ft DA - 185.5mph 1/2 mile 9240ft DA
Appreciate 0
      07-14-2013, 08:11 PM   #14
lsal
We are all Longwong
lsal's Avatar
31
Rep
832
Posts

Drives: E92 M3 Frozen Blue
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Cambridge, MA

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2013 BMW M3  [5.00]
Sick!
Appreciate 0
      07-14-2013, 09:03 PM   #15
Ezio
Brigadier General
Ezio's Avatar
United_States
181
Rep
3,837
Posts

Drives: 2016 Range Rover sport
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: MI

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roman@ESS View Post
Just because the car makes power and has AFR's that are ok the fact is that our software has different ignition mapping that adds safety as you increase boost. Your dynamic CR will be lower at altitude but that does not mean you can simply add as much boost as you want and the motor will be safe. As you increase boost you often need to lower your timing and this is one of the things we do in our higher HP kits for proper safety margin. Without knowing exactly what your dynamic CR is at your altitude there is no way for you to know if the fuel you are running has high enough octane, if the software you are running has proper timing or if the motor is being exposed to CR levels that are unsafe. The reality is you might be safe but you also might be sitting on a ticking time bomb.

By simply lowering the diameter of the SC pulley to increase boost you have reduced the traction of the belt which will eventually cause the belt to slip. This is often the case over time as the belt stretches from wear. On the VT2-650 kit which runs 8 psi we designed a custom crank pulley so that a larger diameter pulley can be used on the SC allowing for proper belt drive traction.

We have had several customers over the years modify our kits to add more boost than the kit was intended to run and more than the motor can safely handle. Software and motor safety in almost all of these cases was overlooked as most do not feel it is important as long as the car is making power. While the initial results were positive and the cars made a lot more power the end results often ended in damaged motors. I will tell you the same thing I tell every customer who wants to modify our kits and experiment with their motors. Make sure you have enough money to buy a new motor if things go wrong. If you do and putting a new motor in your car is not a big deal for you then do what you want.
well people should have the money for a new motor if they are putting putting any kit on.

but its really beyond me how people are not satisfied with the kits as is. (not talking about OP)
__________________

Last edited by Ezio; 07-14-2013 at 09:16 PM.
Appreciate 0
      07-14-2013, 09:06 PM   #16
ar design
ar design's Avatar
United_States
106
Rep
4,408
Posts

Drives: 04 M3
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Denver, CO

iTrader: (9)

Send a message via AIM to ar design
Car is running perfect so far. Pulled plugs before pulley swap and they are spot on. Zero timing abberations on dyno. It is extremely smooth. Will post timing log as soon as Matheo gets to it. Any time you modify an off the shelf kit, you are on your own. We certainly would not blame ESS for any issues that arise from our tweaks. But thus far results of our modifications speak for themselves. Our next step is to improve the cooling for the blower as we feel there is plenty of room for improvement.
Appreciate 0
      07-14-2013, 10:16 PM   #17
ionaetp
New Member
0
Rep
7
Posts

Drives: audi
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: for

iTrader: (0)

I really hope the higher altitude is relieving the stress from the higher boost.
__________________
Appreciate 0
      07-15-2013, 12:11 AM   #18
MilehighM3
Colonel
MilehighM3's Avatar
158
Rep
2,813
Posts

Drives: E90 M3
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Colorado Springs

iTrader: (13)

Wow not only deleting my posts, but Roman's as well?
In that case...
Maybe you should at least put a secondary air filter on your recirc valve hose that's disconnected. Otherwise enjoy the power now, because all the road debris youre sucking into the supercharger from the engine bay will lower your compression in no time. The hacks at AR may not recommend it because they also think it sounds cool, but it'll kill that engine along with the inning issues you're creating.
Appreciate 0
      07-15-2013, 01:30 AM   #19
regular guy
Lieutenant Colonel
169
Rep
1,948
Posts

Drives: Sprint car
Join Date: May 2013
Location: California

iTrader: (0)

The weather station on this dyno is broken. If you look at the ambient pressure for your stock and 614whp runs, the dyno weather station shows 915mBar and 848mBar respectively. Both of those numbers are not possible on planet earth without being inside a tornado. So that's a sign that the dyno weather station is broken. Typical numbers will be 990 - 1030 mBar.

Because of the bogus weather station, your horsepower correction is way off too. The dyno calculated 24% correction, which is far outside of the 7% allowable specification. It looks like the real pressure at your location that day was about 1008 mBar. That would put your dyno correction factor at 4.61%, and your corrected horsepower around 517whp (assuming 494whp uncorrected is accurate).

See if there's another dyno in the area. If your uncorrected numbers are the same, then in order to use results from this shop, you'll need to get your own weather data from another source and calculate the horsepower correction by hand (or web sites will do it for you).
Appreciate 0
      07-15-2013, 02:04 AM   #20
Chriskm3
Colonel
Chriskm3's Avatar
Canada
39
Rep
2,209
Posts

Drives: M3
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Toronto

iTrader: (4)

Andrew from AA once stated that its not the psi that blows the engines but the horsepower
__________________
Vf supercharger + tune/H&R coils/ Akra evolution exhaust/Volk te37/ Rs-3 tires/ Brembos /TIal BOV/ OSS blacked out headlights/LUX v3/Led taillights/ Challenge Front lip/ P3 vent gauge/ F10 m5 shift mob/Matte black front grills/ And a funky air fresher
Appreciate 0
      07-15-2013, 04:41 AM   #21
Skooterbrah
First Lieutenant
Skooterbrah's Avatar
31
Rep
345
Posts

Drives: 08 alpine white dct
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Colorado

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by regular guy View Post
The weather station on this dyno is broken. If you look at the ambient pressure for your stock and 614whp runs, the dyno weather station shows 915mBar and 848mBar respectively. Both of those numbers are not possible on planet earth without being inside a tornado. So that's a sign that the dyno weather station is broken. Typical numbers will be 990 - 1030 mBar.

Because of the bogus weather station, your horsepower correction is way off too. The dyno calculated 24% correction, which is far outside of the 7% allowable specification. It looks like the real pressure at your location that day was about 1008 mBar. That would put your dyno correction factor at 4.61%, and your corrected horsepower around 517whp (assuming 494whp uncorrected is accurate).

See if there's another dyno in the area. If your uncorrected numbers are the same, then in order to use results from this shop, you'll need to get your own weather data from another source and calculate the horsepower correction by hand (or web sites will do it for you).

4% correction...... in Colorado.... when the DA was over 8900...... I don't think so Tim.
__________________
-08 E92 Brushed Steel DCT-
KW V3's - AR Design - Volk TE37 - Vorsteiner - ESS/AR 700
-2012 GTR Premium-
Jacks 3.8 - Jacks Drag 800 w/ billet gears - AAM GT-900R - Swift - DPE ST7's - Ecutek via Visconti - 9.4 @150mph 7200ft DA - 185.5mph 1/2 mile 9240ft DA
Appreciate 0
      07-15-2013, 04:44 AM   #22
Skooterbrah
First Lieutenant
Skooterbrah's Avatar
31
Rep
345
Posts

Drives: 08 alpine white dct
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Colorado

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bmw135er View Post
Wow not only deleting my posts, but Roman's as well?
In that case...
Maybe you should at least put a secondary air filter on your recirc valve hose that's disconnected. Otherwise enjoy the power now, because all the road debris youre sucking into the supercharger from the engine bay will lower your compression in no time. The hacks at AR may not recommend it because they also think it sounds cool, but it'll kill that engine along with the inning issues you're creating.
Deleting what?? Who deleted what? AR hacks? Damn man, did they rub you the wrong way? Pretty hard of the offensive here.... Relax man. AR is hands down the best shop (maybe even best business period) that I have ever delt with. Everything is always done great, and when something happens, its taken care of right then and their, no questions asked. Hands down best customer service and I consider him a good friend after everything he has done and how much him and his guys have helped me.
__________________
-08 E92 Brushed Steel DCT-
KW V3's - AR Design - Volk TE37 - Vorsteiner - ESS/AR 700
-2012 GTR Premium-
Jacks 3.8 - Jacks Drag 800 w/ billet gears - AAM GT-900R - Swift - DPE ST7's - Ecutek via Visconti - 9.4 @150mph 7200ft DA - 185.5mph 1/2 mile 9240ft DA
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:47 AM.




m3post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST