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      01-26-2016, 08:16 PM   #1
rngrjag
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E92 fans who were disappointed at the new M3/M4's loss of NA are now in good company as Porsche is going all turbo on their next gen models (with few exceptions, i.e., some GT cars).

Fogcity, I know you and I were simpatico as applied to the E9X to F8X chassis. Interesting to see critics and fans of Porsche beginning to go through the same wailing and gnashing of teeth. Chris Harris has already panned the turbo 991.2, although he loves the turbo M3/4...
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      01-26-2016, 09:21 PM   #2
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Thanks but its quite old news. At least they sound half way decent..
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      01-26-2016, 10:55 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave07997S View Post
Thanks but its quite old news. At least they sound half way decent..
I know the move to turbos is relatively old news; was really commenting on the similarity of the discussions on the Porsche forums as reviews of the new turbo cars are coming out. Just noting that we E92 "whiners" are in good company. Nothing more.

Seeing your handle, I would be interested if the 991.2 move to turbos disturbs you at all. It will be interesting to see how the new all-turbo line-up is received by the motoring press and the subsequent effect that will have on prospective buyers. I also wonder if, like the E92, there is a percentage of people who feel that the more "special" N/A short-wheelbase 997s will end up being more desired in the future.

Was just throwing out food for thought that Porsche enthusiasts are now going through precisely what M owners went through in the shift to turbos.
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      01-27-2016, 10:29 AM   #4
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I think most manufacturers are headed towards the FI route for emissions and fuel efficiency. I think the "purists" will continue to prefer the NA engines, and they will command a slight premium. I haven't driven a FI car (will this weekend), but it can't be that bad, can it?!
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      01-27-2016, 10:46 AM   #5
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I love forced induction just as much as I love naturally aspirated. It all depends on the car itself, and how much you wish to tune it.

This is the first time in a long time that my driveway has no turbocharged cars in it. I love the E92M's sound and power delivery...but, I'm itching to get back into something with a wide array of tuning possibilities. After this winter, I'll be looking at the new X5M to replace my janky old X3.



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Yes, please. And, it's still a V8
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      01-27-2016, 01:30 PM   #6
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911 GT3 / GT3-RS variants still NA, as will the Cayman GT4
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      01-27-2016, 01:41 PM   #7
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I don't care the cars are going with Turbo's. In fact, I like it. They are more efficient with easy big power capabilities. The part I hate is the way they sound. I feel BMW should have put more time in with engine note. If a car sounds good and performs well, people will buy it. Yes, you can't please everyone but I feel they could have done better. Or continued with a V8 and used the TT engine the X5/X6M use.
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      01-27-2016, 03:23 PM   #8
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Also, Porsche isn't changing the basic engine configuration (it's still a flat six), while here in M3 land we lost the V8 entirely. More to whine about than just turbos.

Latest magazine tests on the next gen 911s seem to love it with the turbocharged engine on both the "S" and non-"S" models. No significant sound complaints, either.
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      01-27-2016, 03:34 PM   #9
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You can thank the European Union for this! They have mandated improved emissions and efficiency for all auto makers in Europe and no one is safe from their policies, not even Ferrari and Lamborghini...
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      01-27-2016, 03:53 PM   #10
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the guys over at porsche got it worse. At least the new f80 is a decent bit faster over a E92. the new 911 with a turbo engine isnt even much faster!
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      01-27-2016, 07:16 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beemdog View Post
Also, Porsche isn't changing the basic engine configuration (it's still a flat six), while here in M3 land we lost the V8 entirely. More to whine about than just turbos.

Latest magazine tests on the next gen 911s seem to love it with the turbocharged engine on both the "S" and non-"S" models. No significant sound complaints, either.
Not quite. 911s are still flat 6s. Boxers and Caymans are turbo four bangers (still boxers, though) in 2.0l base models and 2.5 in S models. Sad to see the Porsche models in same displacements as Mitsu Evos and WRX/STis, but such is progress.

The reviews I've seen on the turbo 911s (not the TURBO 911) have all said that they are not as "special" as the NA models. I agree they have said they sound good.
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      01-27-2016, 07:20 PM   #12
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Is turbo charging necessary for fuel economy? I notice that this latest generation of turbo cars also have higher gearing. So the turbo allows more torque at lower rpm thus gas mileage improvements.

My old e39 540i, a NA car, had tons of low end torque and very high gearing. It would get 30+ mpg @ 80mph all day long.

I think it is more of a marketing and prestige thing by BMW.
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      01-27-2016, 08:04 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Three Pedal Steve
Is turbo charging necessary for fuel economy? I notice that this latest generation of turbo cars also have higher gearing. So the turbo allows more torque at lower rpm thus gas mileage improvements.

My old e39 540i, a NA car, had tons of low end torque and very high gearing. It would get 30+ mpg @ 80mph all day long.

I think it is more of a marketing and prestige thing by BMW.
Yea. I see the whole turbo movement as a cop out. It seems like the "easy thing to do" given the new regulations and such.

At least Lexus had the guts to make a high revving NA V8 for the RCF but it's a shame how much it weighs, and how unattractive it is. I always wanted to know what exactly consequence BMW would have faced if they put a bigger badder higher revving S65 into the M4. Perhaps like the Dinan stroker option. They could have tweaked things to improve mileage over the E92 and kept NA alive a bit longer. But I digress...

I think the bigger whining will take place when we have no combustion engines at all, but full electric motors and eventually fully autonomous cars whenever that time may arrive.
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      01-27-2016, 10:03 PM   #14
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I am happy about the new turbo 911 and Cayman models. This should help depreciate the NA cars so I can afford a 991/981 sooner!

So far, all of the initial tests I have read have raved about the 911/911s with the boost... It seems now the 911 base is the one to get, since a tune will net you S power or more. More standard features now too, commonizing engine parts are most likely the culprit.
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      01-27-2016, 10:58 PM   #15
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What are they going to call the Turbo now? Is it the 911 Turbo Turbo?
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      01-28-2016, 12:57 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mxa121
I am happy about the new turbo 911 and Cayman models. This should help depreciate the NA cars so I can afford a 991/981 sooner!

So far, all of the initial tests I have read have raved about the 911/911s with the boost... It seems now the 911 base is the one to get, since a tune will net you S power or more. More standard features now too, commonizing engine parts are most likely the culprit.
This may not work the way you're hoping. Look at what's happening to air-cooled Porsches these days. NA Porsches may retain value even longer now that they'll be virtually extinct, though granted there may be a depreciation dip before they start to trend toward again if they follow the air-cooled path. But of course nobody has a crystal ball here.
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      01-28-2016, 01:50 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blindside_137 View Post
\
I think the bigger whining will take place when we have no combustion engines at all, but full electric motors and eventually fully autonomous cars whenever that time may arrive.
hopefully that can kill my love for cars. Then i can spend money where its more important
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      01-28-2016, 03:41 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezio View Post
hopefully that can kill my love for cars. Then i can spend money where its more important
More important?? How could that be possible???

There's a saying about "if I could have back all the money I've blown on cars in my lifetime.... I'd take it and blow it on cars all over again!"
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      01-28-2016, 04:09 PM   #19
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Electric motors are likely to supplant internal combustion engines, but not for quite a while. Rechargeable batteries are heavy and extremely dirty to manufacture and dispose of (from an environmental standpoint). Range is another limitation, given how long even fast rechargers take to fully charge a battery pack (the battery swap stations proposed by many as an alternative to waiting for a recharge create major problems as well). Moreover, the electricity needs to be generated somewhere, and there are questions as to whether or not the power grids will be up to the demands of over 100 million vehicles that need regular recharging. Hydrogen fuel cells are the greenest answer, but hydrogen storage creates its own issues (just google "Hindenburg" for a visual). The long and short of it is that the internal combustion engine is likely to survive our lifetimes and beyond.

Turbocharging is only more fuel efficient when you rely on the engine operating off boost for a good portion of the time the car is running. Off boost a forced induction engine has the fuel economy of the smaller displacement engine (a 3.0 liter I-6 in the M4 versus a 4.0 liter V8 in the e9X M3). When it is on boost, a forced induction engine will guzzle gas as fast as a larger displacement naturally aspirated engine, because it is burning just as much fuel (this is where the added power comes from). The problem for manufacturers is that they are required to meet targets set up by government agencies that conduct specific tests for fuel efficiency, and those test loops do not involve the sort of driving most enthusiasts do. Thus the new M4 records better mileage than the predecssor in the test runs, but may not deliver more economy in an enthusiast's hands.

Those of you who watched Top Gear are well aware of how much impact how you drive has on fuel economy. In one segment Jeremy and the crew took a Toyota Prius on the track and drove it as hard as they could, tailed by an M3 driving at the same speeds. The M3 used less fuel in the test than did the Prius.
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      01-29-2016, 05:11 PM   #20
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I intend to have this stenciled across my entire car:

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      02-01-2016, 09:37 AM   #21
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My gripe with the new M3/M4 has nothing to do with the fact that it has forced induction. My gripe is the same as it was with the US version of the e36 M3. It shares its engine with the remainder of the 6 cylinder cars in BMW's lineup. At that point it becomes less a bespoke performance car and more of an option package that you add to a 335i.
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      02-02-2016, 02:38 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DSilk View Post
My gripe with the new M3/M4 has nothing to do with the fact that it has forced induction. My gripe is the same as it was with the US version of the e36 M3. It shares its engine with the remainder of the 6 cylinder cars in BMW's lineup. At that point it becomes less a bespoke performance car and more of an option package that you add to a 335i.
The E36 was even worse. Even shared all the same body panels. Only had different bumpers and skirts and mouldings and seats. The US E36 was pathetic. Even the Euro Evo version as ok because of the much better engine, but it was barely different looking than the base models.

I agree though, the F80/82 is just not for me for many reasons that have been grinded into for years now on the forums. It's not just about speed as most cars are fast. I've only tracked once and 99% of the limiting factors lie within my ability to drive and push the car. It'll do 15 seconds faster than I do in it as it sits stock.
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