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      07-09-2013, 12:43 PM   #1
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Oil Temps

For those with real data acquisition, what are you seeing as maximum oil temps? At what point are you easing up or pitting to let it drop? The other weekend, the ambient temp was around 102F. At one point the car was getting almost three full sessions back to back as my wife and I ran it due to the way run groups were falling. The AiM was showing around 245F maximum. In cooler temps, I doubt this is such a problem, but I am wondering at what point I should seriously consider additional or improved oil cooling. We will constantly be running it as a 2-driver car though, and some HPDEs allow certain run groups to run in multiple sessions, meaning this 3 sessions back to back could happen again.

Anybody rig up a water mist spray onto the cooler? That M24 oil cooler is a lot of $$$, but cheaper than a new motor.
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      07-09-2013, 01:05 PM   #2
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245F? That's like 15F below NORMAL OPERATING TEMP for N52/N54/N55 engines (yes I know those are the 328/335 engines).

I wouldn't even start to worry about oil temp until you're hitting 270F or above for sustained periods. Full "Limp Home Mode" doesn't even kick in until around 315F I believe.
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      07-09-2013, 01:30 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by The HACK View Post
245F? That's like 15F below NORMAL OPERATING TEMP for N52/N54/N55 engines (yes I know those are the 328/335 engines).

I wouldn't even start to worry about oil temp until you're hitting 270F or above for sustained periods. Full "Limp Home Mode" doesn't even kick in until around 315F I believe.
thanks. i had no idea about operating temps for the N series motors. the car will get run harder, so i did want to know where the S65 recommended max and limp mode temps were.
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      07-09-2013, 02:30 PM   #4
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You should be seeing much higher oil temps at that ambient range.

As I recently transitioned from a N54 to the S65 that was one of my very first tests, logging oil and water temps via AIM. Oil temps seems to plateau around 278F at 85F ambient after a few hard laps and no hint of limp modes or performance degradation.

I can share my aim water/oil logs if it helps, but at 245F you have nothing to worry about.
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      07-09-2013, 02:53 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by mid-corner fun View Post
You should be seeing much higher oil temps at that ambient range.

As I recently transitioned from a N54 to the S65 that was one of my very first tests, logging oil and water temps via AIM. Oil temps seems to plateau around 278F at 85F ambient after a few hard laps and no hint of limp modes or performance degradation.

I can share my aim water/oil logs if it helps, but at 245F you have nothing to worry about.
thanks. just the feedback i needed. i guess i better drive it harder to get to 278.
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      07-09-2013, 02:59 PM   #6
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I seen constantly mid to high 260s in oil temps, water temps are around 210-220 with 25-30 minute sessions.
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      07-09-2013, 11:34 PM   #7
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Mine goes >270 deg. F. in Texas summer. Here is a similar thread I started 2 years ago. http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=577867

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      07-10-2013, 07:49 AM   #8
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Mine goes >270 deg. F. in Texas summer. Here is a similar thread I started 2 years ago. http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=577867


Are these close-circuit results? I wasn't expecting 10F oscillation in oil temps (normal for water temps between turns and straights), now I'll have to go graph my temps :-)
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      07-10-2013, 02:37 PM   #9
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Here in SoCal, we see 275~280F during summer track days, resulting in things like DCT refusing to upshift into certain gears, NAV screen shutting off, etc.
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      07-10-2013, 02:39 PM   #10
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Are these close-circuit results? I wasn't expecting 10F oscillation in oil temps (normal for water temps between turns and straights), now I'll have to go graph my temps :-)
Yes this is from a road course/circuit.
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      07-10-2013, 02:51 PM   #11
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Strange that your power steering would boil over (in the past - judging by your GT4 PS cooler upgrade) but your oil temps remained so low, especially considering ambient temp. After a lap or two, my oil temp climbs to 270, but I've never had PS overflow issues. Track layout likely has a pretty big impact though. Who knows, your oil temp sensor could be out of calibration.
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      07-10-2013, 05:47 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard@M-World View Post
Yes this is from a road course/circuit.
you're right, I didn't realize oil temps vary that much per lap. Just did a quick graph, looks similar:


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      07-10-2013, 10:43 PM   #13
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When your DCT starts responding a little slow, time to back off. I've only had to back off in longer sessions. My DCT would get a little sluggish and then the oil temps would start to climb towards 300.

Make sure you check your P/S fluid if this happens.. What I've been told is CHF11S tends to evaporate on top of seeping out of the reservoir cap. I've discovered that my p/s fluid was low twice because my p/s would die. Still works but the steering is seems heavier than other M3s...which I actually prefer.

Also, don't expect to find Pentosin CHF11S on a Sunday.
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      07-11-2013, 01:12 AM   #14
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Quote:
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you're right, I didn't realized oil temps vary that much per lap. Just did a quick graph, looks similar:
In the session you plotted, did you get any overheat warnings? The session I plotted was when I got an overheat warning on the dash.
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      07-11-2013, 11:47 AM   #15
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In the session you plotted, did you get any overheat warnings? The session I plotted was when I got an overheat warning on the dash.
No loss of power and no warnings. Max coolant temp was 228F, ambient 91F. Interestingly enough ambient dropped by 4 degrees after that peak so I went back and looked at the video, I was chasing someone for a couple of laps, the S65 was ingesting hot exhaust fumes when it reached those temps.
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      07-11-2013, 03:03 PM   #16
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One thing to consider is how accurate the oem sensors are. At least with an E46 M3 we have replaced water temp, oil temp, oil pressure......adding a diff temp. All because the oem sensors are not as accurate as one would like. Maybe the E92 M3 sensors are more accurate........I dont know.
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      07-11-2013, 05:42 PM   #17
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One thing to consider is how accurate the oem sensors are. At least with an E46 M3 we have replaced water temp, oil temp, oil pressure......adding a diff temp. All because the oem sensors are not as accurate as one would like. Maybe the E92 M3 sensors are more accurate........I dont know.
Water temp?

I'm confident that the oil temp is close or a decent measure of actual temps.

Back to the OP. I think we all know that almost any car in stock trim will need additional cooling capability for the track to get and maintain ideal water and oil temps. BMWs would be no exception.

IMO, you'd use 90% distilled water with water wetter, better oil cooler and stick with a 10w-60. After that, look into a better radiator.

It will be interesting to see who addresses the DCT cooler and the p/s cooler. Once you increase the oil and water cooling, you'll probably start running into issues with those systems.
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      07-15-2013, 03:41 AM   #18
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Im getting what looks like 265-275 oil temp based on my estimate from the gauge cluster in California summer but that was at a night event... It goes 1mm above the dot between 210f and 300f. Should I be worried if it stays around that temp? I also notice sometimes the car refuses to shift or I am just shifting too aggressive. I will let out the clutch and step on the gas and the car revs but I am in neutral lol... Doesnt happen to my usual track car. There is no overheating warning but I am afraid to push it as I really love my car and dont want to break it hence why this isnt my usual track toy... Thanks guys.
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      10-21-2013, 10:01 PM   #19
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Reviving this old thread. I'm seeing warnings at the track in 85F when in heavy traffic. What solutions have people found? I know of an oil cooler for 2k as well as a DCT cooler for the same. I'm hoping to create something myself or find something much more reasonable. Anybody?

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      10-22-2013, 06:40 AM   #20
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Thank you for reviving this thread. I'm surprised to see that water temperatures are getting up to 230 degrees. I think the best thing to do is to upgrade the oil cooler and see if that prolongs tracking without the DCT overheating. Piecing together your own Setrab or PWR oil cooler would be far less expensive than the kits out there but takes a bit more work. You can also spec a cooler much larger than what's out there.

After some thought, I suspect the water temps are triggering the limp mode and not the 270-280 oil temps. Heck, 250 is operating temp for FI 335s and 328s and now that I see some logs of water temps which are on the verge of blowing head gaskets, I think upgrading the radiator might be the solution and not the oil cooler (which would hurt from an upgrade either but I don't think its the culprit).
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      10-22-2013, 11:56 AM   #21
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Quote:
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Thank you for reviving this thread. I'm surprised to see that water temperatures are getting up to 230 degrees. I think the best thing to do is to upgrade the oil cooler and see if that prolongs tracking without the DCT overheating. Piecing together your own Setrab or PWR oil cooler would be far less expensive than the kits out there but takes a bit more work. You can also spec a cooler much larger than what's out there.

After some thought, I suspect the water temps are triggering the limp mode and not the 270-280 oil temps. Heck, 250 is operating temp for FI 335s and 328s and now that I see some logs of water temps which are on the verge of blowing head gaskets, I think upgrading the radiator might be the solution and not the oil cooler (which would hurt from an upgrade either but I don't think its the culprit).
Mike Miller in the Tech Talk section of a recent issue of Roundel said that water temp gauges were removed because the ECU makes adjustments to adjust water temperature constantly, so people seeing that on a gauge would conclude that something was either wrong with their gauge or seriously wrong with their engine when in fact fluctuations are normal, hence why oil temp gauges are shown instead.

As for these oil temps, I'm surprised people are getting up into 280-300. The most I've ever seen (Yellow group in Driver's Edge at Texas World Speedway in summer) is about 235. Granted I'm not watching the needle throughout the entire lap, but that's about where it is when the checkered flag drops and I slow down for a cooldown lap. I'm by no means the fastest driver around, but others are seeing temperature increases over 3x as large compared to an operating temp of 210?
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      10-22-2013, 12:43 PM   #22
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Quote:
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Mike Miller in the Tech Talk section of a recent issue of Roundel said that water temp gauges were removed because the ECU makes adjustments to adjust water temperature constantly, so people seeing that on a gauge would conclude that something was either wrong with their gauge or seriously wrong with their engine when in fact fluctuations are normal, hence why oil temp gauges are shown instead.

As for these oil temps, I'm surprised people are getting up into 280-300. The most I've ever seen (Yellow group in Driver's Edge at Texas World Speedway in summer) is about 235. Granted I'm not watching the needle throughout the entire lap, but that's about where it is when the checkered flag drops and I slow down for a cooldown lap. I'm by no means the fastest driver around, but others are seeing temperature increases over 3x as large compared to an operating temp of 210?
Back in the day gauges were accurate with needles that moved constantly according to temperature and the gauges actually had temp (or pressure) values on them. Most modern cars (since the 80-90s) don't have accurate gauges or even temperature values, but rather have 'dummy' gauges where if the needle is in the 'middle' it's okay and anything above middle is really bad, so i'm not quite sold on Miller's explanation for a lack of a water temp gauge.

The M3's oil temp gauge is one of the exceptions which I believe is accurate. The main problem here is the car going in to limp mode on track, reducing power, and not responding to shifting. We need to know what is triggering this limp mode and from the above posts, I suspect that it's due to water temps getting up to 230*F on track which is not good, rather than my (and many other's) previous belief that 270-280*F oil temps causing the issue -which really shouldn't be a problem for modern synthetics and is not considered to high for factory FI BMW cars.
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