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      07-06-2013, 03:46 PM   #1
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Very large toe change for small camber increase, now what?

Plan foiled! My intention was to setup 2 very different profiles on the Vorshlag camber plates, a very mild street profile at -1.5 to -1.7 with slight toe-in and a more aggressive track profile at -2.5 with slight toe-out (for starters, and increase camber to -3.x from there).

Well, at -1.6 and 1/16 toe-in, a -0.2 increase in camber results in a 1/8 increase in toe, pretty much maxes out my desired toe settings without even getting to -2 camber.

Yes, I know about the alignment settings thread in the suspension forum and the recent post on tie-rod adjustments, but if you go down that route how do you know what you're adjusting to? I posted here as I'm looking for specific track setting advice. This is on a "civic" EDC M3 with 18s, no other suspension changes.
Any ideas?
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      07-06-2013, 06:05 PM   #2
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set your street camber. mark where the pointer is. for me it is the second tick mark. set your street toe and mark the tie rod with ink to match rod end to threads. same kind of ink used to mark torqued bolts. then have alignment guy set camber to whatever you want. now have him adjust toe from each side individually and count how many wrench flats he rotates the tie rod adjustment to get the correct toe. for me, it is 2.5 wrench flats. I do that when I push the camber in and then undo it when I push the camber back. there is no easy way to escape this unless you pick a static camber which will either be too much for the street or not enough for the track. it is really easy to adjust toe as long as you know how far to go and where to return when you are done at the track. just a T50 socket to loosen it and a 13mm open end wrench to adjust it.
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Last edited by surlynkid; 07-07-2013 at 02:24 PM.
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      07-07-2013, 07:43 AM   #3
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This is the primary reason I stick with the same camber setting for both street and track.
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      07-07-2013, 01:02 PM   #4
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I forget who it was but they only make the tie rod adjustment on one side when they go from street to track camber.

I mark the inner tie rod with white out. And then have my alignment shop align for the street, mark the outer tie rod. Then align for the track, mark the outer tie rod. Make sure you know which one is which and the right direction to turn the tie rod.

You have to jack up each corner for the track anyway...what's another 10 minutes to make a minor and easy toe adjustment.

BUT...I'm finding that -2.2 camber up front is the sweet spot with NT01s. Although I still think its closer to -2.5 but haven't had time or the car on the track to play with it.
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      07-07-2013, 02:23 PM   #5
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[quote=bigjae1976;14282185]I forget who it was but they only make the tie rod adjustment on one side when they go from street to track camber.

QUOTE]

you can do that, but your steering wheel will not be straight in both cases. if you want it centered and level, you have to adjust from both sides. it is easier to do one side, but once lifted it is easy to do both.
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      07-07-2013, 03:00 PM   #6
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I have my tie rods marked on both sides. It only takes about 1/8th of a turn.
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      07-07-2013, 07:07 PM   #7
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[quote=surlynkid;14282497
you can do that, but your steering wheel will not be straight in both cases. if you want it centered and level, you have to adjust from both sides. it is easier to do one side, but once lifted it is easy to do both.[/QUOTE]

The steering wheel will not be off center by very much. Save time and adjust just one side.
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      07-07-2013, 07:51 PM   #8
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thanks guys, will mark the current tie-rod position and on the next alignment I'll mark a track setting too. For now I settled at -2.0 on all 4 corners which may not be bad with the Direzza IIs anyway. Hoping the splice issue goes away on the NT01s so I can go back to them later this year, with more neg camber.
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      07-07-2013, 08:03 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TXmtrhed View Post
The steering wheel will not be off center by very much. Save time and adjust just one side.
too anal retentive for that. that blue line on the performance steering wheel drives me nuts when it is off center.
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      07-07-2013, 08:13 PM   #10
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How about some toe plates.

Been reading up on DIY string alignments recently. Hope to take the time to learn to do so in the future.
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      07-07-2013, 09:24 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mid-corner fun View Post
thanks guys, will mark the current tie-rod position and on the next alignment I'll mark a track setting too. For now I settled at -2.0 on all 4 corners which may not be bad with the Direzza IIs anyway. Hoping the splice issue goes away on the NT01s so I can go back to them later this year, with more neg camber.
My last 8 NT01s have not had the splice issue. I know of two others that have NT01s with no splices. I just got 3 free warrant replacements for spliced tires (4th tire was corded and spliced).

Likely a manufacturing defect that was fixed.
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      07-07-2013, 09:26 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TXmtrhed View Post
The steering wheel will not be off center by very much. Save time and adjust just one side.
He has that fancy performance steering wheel with the stripe at the top. I'm sure it would drive surlynkid absolutely bonkers on the grid looking at his cock-eyed blue stripe on his steering wheel as his instructor keeps asking if his steering wheel is on crooked.
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      07-08-2013, 03:15 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by surlynkid View Post
too anal retentive for that. that blue line on the performance steering wheel drives me nuts when it is off center.
Hehe main reason I don't have a Performance wheel (although the alcantara is soooo nice). But my alignment shop seems to NEVER get the steering wheel 100% straight. Would drive me mad
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      07-08-2013, 06:38 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Autobahn335i View Post
Hehe main reason I don't have a Performance wheel (although the alcantara is soooo nice). But my alignment shop seems to NEVER get the steering wheel 100% straight. Would drive me mad
they don't get it right because it is too much work. the guy that does my alignments lets me sit in it the car and keep it straight and turn it back and forth while he adjusts things on the rack. also helps me get a better alignment as the weight of me in the car changes the camber/toe.
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      07-08-2013, 09:40 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by surlynkid View Post
they don't get it right because it is too much work. the guy that does my alignments lets me sit in it the car and keep it straight and turn it back and forth while he adjusts things on the rack. also helps me get a better alignment as the weight of me in the car changes the camber/toe.
My guy lets me sit in the car too, love it. gets the steering wheel and weight just right while I shoot the shit with him!

Quote:
Originally Posted by mid-corner fun View Post
thanks guys, will mark the current tie-rod position and on the next alignment I'll mark a track setting too. For now I settled at -2.0 on all 4 corners which may not be bad with the Direzza IIs anyway. Hoping the splice issue goes away on the NT01s so I can go back to them later this year, with more neg camber.
I went thru all these shenanigans too. We decided on a static camber setting (-2.5F, -2.0R) for both street and track, but I still change the toe at trackside . Street setting is 1/16" IN for drivability, and track setting is 1/16" OUT for better turn in response. It's a simple 60 second change when I'm putting on the track wheels, and it truly doesn't change the steering wheel enough for me to even notice. So far my street tires are wearing evenly and the temps across the track tires are fairly uniform.
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      07-08-2013, 10:26 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sleeper519 View Post
I went thru all these shenanigans too. We decided on a static camber setting (-2.5F, -2.0R) for both street and track, but I still change the toe at trackside . Street setting is 1/16" IN for drivability, and track setting is 1/16" OUT for better turn in response. It's a simple 60 second change when I'm putting on the track wheels, and it truly doesn't change the steering wheel enough for me to even notice. So far my street tires are wearing evenly and the temps across the track tires are fairly uniform.
100% agreed. After playing with different settings, I am now running the same camber setting as Sleeper. I don't consider it a compromise. Street wear is fairly decent (running 0 toe up front). On the track, the wear is even. With -3 up front, I was actually burning up and wearing out the inside tires on the TRACK. Camber curves seem to be better compared to other M3 models. This is on a complete stock suspension BTW.

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      07-08-2013, 10:43 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by surlynkid View Post
too anal retentive for that. that blue line on the performance steering wheel drives me nuts when it is off center.
I'm too busy looking outside the car to look at the steering wheel when I'm on the track. If you had a decent instructor he would say the same.
Apologies (kinda) to bigjae.
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      07-08-2013, 12:20 PM   #18
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I went with a static setting and have dialed it down to -2.4f/-1.8r with front toe set at 0.03 degrees per side. With this alignment, I get even wear on my NT01's rotated and decent wear on PSS as well.
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      07-08-2013, 12:51 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TXmtrhed
Quote:
Originally Posted by surlynkid View Post
too anal retentive for that. that blue line on the performance steering wheel drives me nuts when it is off center.
I'm too busy looking outside the car to look at the steering wheel when I'm on the track. If you had a decent instructor he would say the same.
Apologies (kinda) to bigjae.
Paul, you're totally off on describing my style of instructing. Especially when Surlynkid is driving, it involves screaming, profanity, crying and even some thumb sucking.
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      07-08-2013, 01:22 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjae1976 View Post
Paul, you're totally off on describing my style of instructing. Especially when Surlynkid is driving, it involves screaming, profanity, crying and even some thumb sucking.
Driver or instructor? With proper alignment the driver should not be able to see the perf. wheel blue line while thumb sucking
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      07-08-2013, 03:19 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mid-corner fun View Post
Driver or instructor? With proper alignment the driver should not be able to see the perf. wheel blue line while thumb sucking
Is it okay to suck the thumb of the instructor?

I always steered away from bringing this up, but this post makes me think I should ask in future. I think the emotional support will help my driving.

Von Zoom? Thoughts?
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      07-08-2013, 09:25 PM   #22
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Is it okay to suck the thumb of the instructor?

I always steered away from bringing this up, but this post makes me think I should ask in future. I think the emotional support will help my driving.

Von Zoom? Thoughts?
I encourage it. Especially after I come out of the port-o-potty and jump in the student's car.
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