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      06-24-2013, 08:40 AM   #67
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My question is how many owners were affected by this issue?
Maybe people shouldnt panic as long as you dont track the damn thing and dont FI the engine? This will make my desigion wether to keep the car or get rid of it I have 1 month to go on my lease. Most likely will keep it and get extendet warranty, if something happens let BMW deal with that shit.
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      06-24-2013, 08:51 AM   #68
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Caught in the current coming over from M5board, great...really great info here guys.

This is the sort of discussion I was looking for before I made up my mind on what to replace mine with.

So who makes custom clearance bearings and how many kids would I have to sell for a set? If BMW tight-spec'd those clearances for the sake of quitening down the S85...they failed. I'll take 3 extra db if I know the bearings fit right.

But what would have to happen with the oil weight or pump pressure on the S85 to maintain journal pressures?

And what effect would different oil weight / feed pressure have to the VANOS high pressure pump on the S85?
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      06-24-2013, 09:02 AM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcolley View Post
Caught in the current coming over from M5board, great...really great info here guys.

This is the sort of discussion I was looking for before I made up my mind on what to replace mine with.

So who makes custom clearance bearings and how many kids would I have to sell for a set? If BMW tight-spec'd those clearances for the sake of quitening down the S85...they failed. I'll take 3 extra db if I know the bearings fit right.

But what would have to happen with the oil weight or pump pressure on the S85 to maintain journal pressures?

And what effect would different oil weight / feed pressure have to the VANOS high pressure pump on the S85?
There are no custom makers unfortunately. The real makers are Mahle-Clevite and Pankl. What we need are -.001 bearings, unfortunately this will have to come from the manufacturers because the tooling cost is rediculous if they do not already make them. The entire making it quieter, making more power thing is total bs also. Not that it hasent been stated but you will not make any more power with tighter clearance. Not enough that 90% of the dynos in the USA can measure. Further more most of the noise comes from piston to wall and not rod clearance.
Pressure can only be answered if you know how much the pump is on the bypass. Most of the time you can look at a pressure graph and be able to tell it is on the bypass or not. I am sure there are guys that have logged it, also many have stated the Dinan kits do not upgrade the oil pump and they run fine. The weight difference is not as much as you would think, dont get caught up on so much the pressure as the flow, you can have 100psi but if the oil os cold you still dont have much flow.
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      06-24-2013, 09:07 AM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YUN View Post
My question is how many owners were affected by this issue?
Maybe people shouldnt panic as long as you dont track the damn thing and dont FI the engine? This will make my desigion wether to keep the car or get rid of it I have 1 month to go on my lease. Most likely will keep it and get extendet warranty, if something happens let BMW deal with that shit.
I am not going to panic but is still sucks because there have been bone stock cars that still fail bearings. What does suck is that I can afford a nice used supercharged what I cant afford is to blow the bottom end out. It has nothing to do with over stressing the engine either. The bottom line is they set it way too tight for what is should be.
We race every weekend a smaller journal than what bmw has and we still have more clearance. If it was prudent to run that tight we would be doing it every weekend.
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      06-24-2013, 09:22 AM   #71
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I have trouble believing BMW speced the "wrong" size bearing-- pretty noob if so. I'd be waiting for the other shoe to drop if I upsized.

My solution would be to watch oil analysis and swap the bearings when lead/copper elevate. Not an overly hard weekend project and the parts are cheap.

In fact, that's what I did on my s54. High rpm engines wear out rod bearings, goes with the territory.
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      06-24-2013, 09:32 AM   #72
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but just replacing the bearings if they wear out seems like a ridiculous fix to have to keep doing and again does not alleviate the problem. BMW really dropped the ball here. You never see any other high revving engines have these problems.

And replacing the bearings is no easy job. If you had to pay a mechanic its a 5k job. Not pocket change
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      06-24-2013, 09:44 AM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Longwong View Post
but just replacing the bearings if they wear out seems like a ridiculous fix to have to keep doing and again does not alleviate the problem. BMW really dropped the ball here. You never see any other high revving engines have these problems.

And replacing the bearings is no easy job. If you had to pay a mechanic its a 5k job. Not pocket change
To the contrary, s14s, s50b30s, s52b32s, and s54s all wear out bearings. Mine needed replacement (and got it) at 110,000 miles. Some need it much sooner. Some go over 200,000 without needed them.

Not that bad of a job, certainly not $5000! Support engine from above, drop front subframe, drop oil pan, replace bearings, reassemble. Or, step by step e46 guide: http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?t=414678

If everyone was wearing them out at, say, 50,000... That would seem like a problem to me. But, there's lots of high mileage cars out there ready. I'd say watch the oil analysis and replace when necessary. Cost of having a high revving engine.
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      06-24-2013, 10:26 AM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Obioban View Post
To the contrary, s14s, s50b30s, s52b32s, and s54s all wear out bearings. Mine needed replacement (and got it) at 110,000 miles. Some need it mug sooner.

Not that bad of a job, certainly not $5000! Support engine from above, drop front subframe, drop oil pan, replace bearings, reassemble. Or, step by step e46 guide: http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?t=414678

If everyone was wearing them out at, say, 50,000... That would seem like a problem to me. But, there's lots of high mileage cars out there ready. I'd say watch the oil analysis and replace when necessary. Cost of having a high revving engine.
Coming over from m5board....My S85 has 46K miles now, it's an 08 and it has early signs if high wear on the bearings. Last oil test showed increased lead.
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      06-24-2013, 10:33 AM   #75
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I've said this in pretty much every thread about rod bearings and I'll say it again. When you change your oil, send a sample to Blackstone to get it analyzed. It's like $25 each time (every 7500 miles).

1) If oil analysis comes back and shows no bearing issue, why bust the engine open to change the bearings unless you are going FI?
2) As mentioned in every thread, the tolerances are very tight in these engines. However, there's also a good chance your engine is perfectly fine too.

Now if your oil analysis came back with high lead count, then that's another subject

I do Blackstone analyze on every single oil change at 7500 miles interval. Fortunately so far, the lead has been 0 through out. But I do have a relatively high number for nickel (all 7s and 8s when the universal average is only 1). Molybdenum and Titanium has shot up a lot in the last 2 oil changes but this is when the Castrol oil was changed from the original motor sport one to the edge one. Since we have so many expert on this thread, can anyone charm in on the meaning of these 3? I also read somewhere that on the later/newer engine, the bearings don't have lead in them for environmental purposes. Is this true? If so, which metal/materials should we really be looking for in the analysis report? Or is physically checking the bearings the only real option here? Any DIY?

On the topic of why? It's the simple matter of cost, both time and $$$. I can schedule the down time of when to have the bearing changed instead of having the unknown timing factor of when the engine goes boom and leave me stranded hundreds of miles away from home and sourcing a new/used engine, radiator, oil cooler, etc and still having to upgrade the bearings at that point. I don't track my car but I do drive it hard occasionally. The bone stock engines failing are what scares me here. Cheers.

Really appreciate all the info and knowledge being pass on in these threads.
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      06-24-2013, 10:46 AM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Longwong View Post
but just replacing the bearings if they wear out seems like a ridiculous fix to have to keep doing and again does not alleviate the problem. BMW really dropped the ball here. You never see any other high revving engines have these problems.

And replacing the bearings is no easy job. If you had to pay a mechanic its a 5k job. Not pocket change
Where are you coming up with $5k?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Obioban View Post
To the contrary, s14s, s50b30s, s52b32s, and s54s all wear out bearings. Mine needed replacement (and got it) at 110,000 miles. Some need it much sooner. Some go over 200,000 without needed them.

Not that bad of a job, certainly not $5000! Support engine from above, drop front subframe, drop oil pan, replace bearings, reassemble. Or, step by step e46 guide: http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?t=414678

If everyone was wearing them out at, say, 50,000... That would seem like a problem to me. But, there's lots of high mileage cars out there ready. I'd say watch the oil analysis and replace when necessary. Cost of having a high revving engine.
Completely agree with you here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by e92zero View Post
I do Blackstone analyze on every single oil change at 7500 miles interval. Fortunately so far, the lead has been 0 through out. But I do have a relatively high number for nickel (all 7s and 8s when the universal average is only 1). Molybdenum and Titanium has shot up a lot in the last 2 oil changes but this is when the Castrol oil was changed from the original motor sport one to the edge one. Since we have so many expert on this thread, can anyone charm in on the meaning of these 3? I also read somewhere that on the later/newer engine, the bearings don't have lead in them for environmental purposes. Is this true? If so, which metal/materials should we really be looking for in the analysis report? Or is physically checking the bearings the only real option here? Any DIY?

On the topic of why? It's the simple matter of cost, both time and $$$. I can schedule the down time of when to have the bearing changed instead of having the unknown timing factor of when the engine goes boom and leave me stranded hundreds of miles away from home and sourcing a new/used engine, radiator, oil cooler, etc and still having to upgrade the bearings at that point. I don't track my car but I do drive it hard occasionally. The bone stock engines failing are what scares me here. Cheers.

Really appreciate all the info and knowledge being pass on in these threads.
If it says 0 lead, then you are good. Mine is at 9 (which is the average). This is my opinion. As long as your oil analysis comes back clean, why break open into an engine to change something that does not need to be changed (yet anyway).

Just keep an eye on it and you'll be fine. That's just my opinion.
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      06-24-2013, 10:56 AM   #77
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      06-24-2013, 05:34 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Obioban View Post
I have trouble believing BMW speced the "wrong" size bearing-- pretty noob if so. I'd be waiting for the other shoe to drop if I upsized.

My solution would be to watch oil analysis and swap the bearings when lead/copper elevate. Not an overly hard weekend project and the parts are cheap.

In fact, that's what I did on my s54. High rpm engines wear out rod bearings, goes with the territory.


this is a production car and no should not wear bearins prematurely. If at all
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      06-24-2013, 06:28 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by Obioban View Post
In fact, that's what I did on my s54. High rpm engines wear out rod bearings, goes with the territory.
Simply not true, unless you said "high RPM BMW engines wear out rod bearings." I've never heard of bearing failure such as this in the S2000 community and there are many more high mile F20c's rolling around than S65's.
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      06-24-2013, 06:34 PM   #80
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Given it is a lubrication issue would doing 5k oil changes maximize the lubrication of the oil to get as much possible lubrication we can? I understand part of it is oil is not getting in there enough but the stuff that does make it in seems that if we keep it as perfectly working as possible and fresh that may prevent a significant part of the damage
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      06-24-2013, 07:02 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by urBan_dK View Post
Simply not true, unless you said "high RPM BMW engines wear out rod bearings." I've never heard of bearing failure such as this in the S2000 community and there are many more high mile F20c's rolling around than S65's.
http://www.s2ki.com/s2000/topic/8948...a-rod-bearing/
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      06-24-2013, 07:11 PM   #82
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Definitely some good info here! I am constantly testing the durability of this car and this is something to look out for. Will definitely have my oil tested next go around. Sounds like a stroker may be mandatory on this engine
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      06-24-2013, 07:28 PM   #83
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Instead of trying to find bearings to meet a new size, can you grind down the connecting rods to allow for more clearance?
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      06-24-2013, 07:31 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Longwong View Post
If I read that correctly, part of the problem with low clearence is the chance the oil will sheer and especially at high performance and high engine speeds will cause the thinner oils to lose protective layer. So this means that is likely why bmw uses the thicker TWS oil (remember the e46 m3 started with 5w30 and switched to TWS after the bearing issues) so going to a thinner oil would in theory "fix" the problem of oil getting into the lower clearence areas but would sheer and the protection would be useless and thus it looks like TWS is the best protection for a low clearence situation like we have.

I just have no clue how bmw could not have caught this and did it again with the s85/s65 blocks/engines after the s54. Such a small little detail yet so catastrophic.

So essentially coated bearingas are not the answer. Thinner oil is not the answer. Praying that we have the bearings with a bit more clearence than the next guys is the only hope!
Shearing is not the issue as much as some of the oil getting squeezed out of the bearing under high loads. This phenomeon always happens to an extent in all bearings but in most bearings their is enough of a film thickness to the hydrodynamic wedge that the journal is always riding on an oil film and metal on metal contact dosen't happen.

One of the main reasons for specific bearing to journal clearance settings is to ensure that there is enough thickness to the wedge of oil between the bearing shell and the journal to allow for a safety margin for conditions such as detonation, high RPM operation, excessive loads, etc........ Journal bearings like load to be constant, for example a shaft spinning at a constant speed with no excessive axial loads placed on them, the directional change a connecting rod encounters everytime the engine gets to TDC and BDC exertes the exact type axial loads on the bearing that it doesn't like. These axial loads cause some of the oil film or wedge to be squeezed out the side of the bearing every time the rod changes direction. As a rule for most engines, rod clearances are generally set 0.0003"-0.0005" greater than the main bearings, to allow additional oil film thickness to prevent metal on contact when these axial forces are exerted on the bearing/journal.

The other consideration taken into account when setting clearance is the volume of the oil pump and the desired oil pressure. High volume oil pumps are often used in race/performance engines due to the additional bearing clearance that is commonly specced on engines with performance usage in mind. Due to this additional bearing clearance, more pump volume is required to ensure that the bearings are getting adequate oil flow and that oil pressure is maintained above the minimum spec. With all that being said, pressure is only one part of the equation when it comes to an engines' lubrication system, flow is the more important of the two and the main oil pump in an engine is essentially providing charge pressure to all of the engine bearings. Pressure is just the resistance to flow and max engine oil pressure is ultimately set by the system relief. A minimum pressure will be required to ensure that bearings get sufficient oil to remain completely full of oil, but the minimum required pressure is usually much lower than people realize. The journals spinning in the bearings make their own pressure, which lifts the journal and keeps it suspended within the bearing due to a slight eccentricity that is engineered into the bearing shell compared to the completely concentric journal.

The lack of clearance in the S65 coupled with the forces exerted on the rods (which in turn are transferred through the rod bearings to the rod journals) due to the high compression ratio and high RPM operation are a recipe for disaster. To put the cherry on the top of it all, BMW wants a 10W60 oil to be used in the said engine with these tight clearances, an oil that most likely behaves more like a gear oil or grease than an engine oil when cold!. Maybe the thought process was that with high engine oil temperatures that can be experienced by people tracking their cars and/or running at high RPM for prolonged periods, the 10W60 fit the bill for maintaining a minimum viscosity the engineers were looking for. Obviously what they didn't see is that below these temperatures lubrication is going to be compromised. The problem in my opinion is that most people never experience temperatures high enough to need the 10W60. For these people (which probably make up over 95% of M3/M5 owners), the high viscosity of the oil is hindering oil flow to the bearings before the engine oil is up to operating temperature since the relief is most likely opening well before all of the bearings have adequate oil supply. This lack of oil flow is allowing M3 and M5 owners to do excessive damage to their bearings without even realizing it. If owners trust that once BMW's variable redline is allowing max RPM that they can romp on it, they are dead wrong....... This is not even close to the case, I have noticed on my personal M3 that max RPM is allowed by the variable redline at around 60 degrees C (140 degrees F) and I am sure that everyone elses car is the same. I personally won't put any excessive load on my engine until I see 90 degrees C (195 degrees F) oil temperature for a minimum.

I am both happy and sad that regular guy shared the clearance info from the S65 engine builds that he has been involved in. I am happy because it has allowed me to take some steps to prevent a catastrophic failure in my own engine, but I am sad that it is going to cost me big money to properly fix my engine, and since I intend on keeping my car indefinitely in my mind I have no other choice. During the interim I intend to change the grade of oil in my engine to something in a 40 or 30 WT.

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Originally Posted by kawasaki00 View Post
The only way to fix it without taking the engine apart is to have mahle make -.001 bearings and swap shells, that would effectively give you about .002 clearance.
Oh I also believe that BMW should pay for it and eat the cost of replacing them. Although many of us have not had failures the simple fact that as the m3 and m5 age more failures are creeping up. The clearance they set the engines at is not acceptable in any machine shop across the entire planet. If they dont have at least some sort of response it is pretty lame if you ask me. Many of us know what it takes to fix it and some of us have all the tools neede to fix it ourself, but I have a problem with pulling a 15 thousand dollar engine out of my car and having to fix it myself. On the other hand most of us sit here and think about it everytime you make a blast up a back road or freeway wondering if it is going to spit the rods out.
Agree 100% on all points........ I doubt there will be any compensation from BMW though!

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Originally Posted by kawasaki00 View Post
There are no custom makers unfortunately. The real makers are Mahle-Clevite and Pankl. What we need are -.001 bearings, unfortunately this will have to come from the manufacturers because the tooling cost is rediculous if they do not already make them. The entire making it quieter, making more power thing is total bs also. Not that it hasent been stated but you will not make any more power with tighter clearance. Not enough that 90% of the dynos in the USA can measure. Further more most of the noise comes from piston to wall and not rod clearance.
Pressure can only be answered if you know how much the pump is on the bypass. Most of the time you can look at a pressure graph and be able to tell it is on the bypass or not. I am sure there are guys that have logged it, also many have stated the Dinan kits do not upgrade the oil pump and they run fine. The weight difference is not as much as you would think, dont get caught up on so much the pressure as the flow, you can have 100psi but if the oil os cold you still dont have much flow.
Looks like we have another good contributor joining in on the conversation..... please don't be shy and keep posting...... It is always good to have a bigger pool of knowledge and experience to draw from. I can tell you know engines both from experience and principle by reading your posts!

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Originally Posted by aussiem3 View Post
So, will running a thinner oil like 5w-30 help this issue ... if clearance is the main culprit here?
Help the issue yes, fix it no! please read both my reply above and kawasaki00's post below

Quote:
Originally Posted by kawasaki00 View Post
Is it a fix, no. Will it help, yes it will. .001 rod clearance is entirely too tight on a street engine that was made to run 10-60. The thinner the oil the tighter you can run the clearance.
As far as the oil consumption the "weight" of the oil has nothing to do with it. Different brands and additive packages will contribute to this but if a company as Castrol made a 5-40 with the same package as 10-60 consumption would be no different and in many cases it can actually improve. Certain street car oils are known to have lots of consumption. Quaker State full synthetic is one of them. That is because of the additive package though not because of the weight.
People will argue all day long about oil and what is best because the manufacture says so but the bottom line is a thinner oil with the proper additive package will help the clearance problem. The tws oil is pretty much a diesel oil additive package. I have tested it along with many other oils in our shop with a 250k machine and the conclusion is that the tws has virtually the same additive package as a Delvac or Rotella diesel oil.
So what do I run, I am sure a lot of people will disagree but I run Rotella 5-40 because of the known bearing problem. If this problem did not exist I would run the 10-60 just as it calls for.
+1 I am looking at the Rotella T6 for my car on the next oil change. The T6 must be a stout oil since it has the JASO MA rating on the back...... Not many passenger car/ diesel engine oils meet motorcycle certifications which is a testament to the base stock it is blended from. Motorcycles throw a whole different curve at oils since they have to deal with lubricating a transmission and a wet clutch as well as an engine that can spin upwards of 15000RPM......... But judging by your username I don't need to tell you anything about motorcycles!

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Originally Posted by kawasaki00 View Post
Yes I run the T6, Of course to some people my engine will grenade at any moment LOL.
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      06-24-2013, 07:35 PM   #85
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If you took the time to read the thread, the car was eating oil and the pictures of the combustion chamber walls indicated oil starvation. This was not a design flaw from too small of bearing clearances - but rather an abused car.
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      06-24-2013, 08:09 PM   #86
Obioban
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Originally Posted by urBan_dK View Post
If you took the time to read the thread, the car was eating oil and the pictures of the combustion chamber walls indicated oil starvation. This was not a design flaw from too small of bearing clearances - but rather an abused car.
https://www.google.com/search?q=s200...oe=UTF-8&hl=en
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      06-24-2013, 08:49 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by BMRLVR View Post
Looks like we have another good contributor joining in on the conversation..... please don't be shy and keep posting...... It is always good to have a bigger pool of knowledge and experience to draw from. I can tell you know engines both from experience and principle by reading your posts!

I am looking at the Rotella T6 for my car on the next oil change. The T6 must be a stout oil since it has the JASO MA rating on the back...... Not many passenger car/ diesel engine oils meet motorcycle certifications which is a testament to the base stock it is blended from. Motorcycles throw a whole different curve at oils since they have to deal with lubricating a transmission and a wet clutch as well as an engine that can spin upwards of 15000RPM......... But judging by your username I don't need to tell you anything about motorcycles!
Thank you for the kind words. This type of thing is what I do for a living. I try to contribute if possible.
You are correct on the rotella in the motorcycles, along with my full-time job I also raced a zx-10r for a couple years. There have been some complaints over the last year or so about the t6 though, some of the high power bikes are having a touch of clutch chatter. The zinc and phosphorous levels have dropped from 1600 to about 13-1400 in the new t6. For engine bearings, flat tappet cams and the like that number is still plenty high. The tws oil is about 16-1700 on zinc numbers. BUT although it is higher that doesn't mean it is superior. Mobil 1 racing 4t is being sold as a motorcycle oil but it is really a normal engine oil with about 1500ppm of zinc and phosphorous. The problem is that it is a 10-30 so not really picking up much as far as our clearance problem.
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      06-24-2013, 08:57 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by urBan_dK View Post
If you took the time to read the thread, the car was eating oil and the pictures of the combustion chamber walls indicated oil starvation. This was not a design flaw from too small of bearing clearances - but rather an abused car.
That and the fact looks to me like the head gasket was leaking coolant into the chamber.
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