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      06-24-2013, 09:14 PM   #177
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Originally Posted by MiddleAgedAl View Post
I thought I did answer your question. Whatever you choose to believe, if it doesnt affect me, then peace. I'm OK if some think I'll burn in hell for failing to worship someone (who really shouldnt require the validation of my glorification if he was so powerful to create everything; I mean really, that work should speak for itself, and count far more than my opinion. ). Anyway, I disagree, and since I do, I dont care if others think that way about me.

However, when people start talking about master plans being put into place by all powerful beings, that means that the actions of those of us here on earth start to matter less and less. If it's "Gods Plan" to call you home on a certain date, then it's pretty foolish/arrogant/futile of someone to think they could override such a plan by an all-powerful entity, so the level of caution or care that one may take will reduce accordingly. Then that starts to affect others, such as ME, or those I care about. I'm not in a rush to find out if you are right or wrong about any afterlife, I think I got more living to do here first.

You should watch the documentary "Senna". Highly recommended, despite an abundance of crappy quality, lo-def grainy footage. Anyway, his belief, and how that affected is driving, is covered. Pay particular attention to the sections Alain Prost expresses the same concerns that I am (ie: Alain was worried Senna was so content to put his fate in the hands of God, that Alain thot it was a matter of time before Senna killed him and/or others. He said <paraphrasing here>, "Senna thinks he cannot be killed because of his beliefs, and God is protecting him"). It's quite relevant to this. If Senna's beliefs didnt manifest themselves in a driving style that was at times reckless & dangerous to others, then I'm sure Alain wouldnt have given a shit what he did on his own time either. Alain may have been very sneaky and manipulative in a political sense, but he never intentionally put others lives at risk the same way.

Believe it or not, I think it's great that the congregation at your church takes personal responsibility for things in a way that is not deferential to "Gods Plan". From their professions, it sounds as if they make their own success happen. It would seem to me that the high concentration of successful professionals you named means that your congregation is not necessarily representative of the millions of others out there who do take the whole "Gods Plan" thing very literally. Those are the one's I'm worried about, not the Judges, etc who share the pews with you.
So you think that there are so many people out there that believe they can live such a carefree life that they may actually endanger your life? Seriously? I believe your fear of dying at the hands of a cavalier christian is unfounded. Sorry.

I own the Senna documentary. Maybe it's the ideals i share with Senna that gave me a completely different take on they way and why he lived his life the way he did. None of which was based on a period opinion given by Prost. Even if Prost's public opinion wasn't politically motivated, he had much more of a reason to be concerned than you do.
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      06-24-2013, 09:29 PM   #178
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Or you could look at it as the whole earth is doomed, with the exception of those who accept God's outstretched hand since the beginning of Mankind (and the innocents, such as children and, arguably, animals). Those who ignore it don't change their fate.

Should we do everything in our power to sustain an extend life? Absolutely. And then we let the chips fall where God lets them.
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      06-24-2013, 09:47 PM   #179
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grimlock View Post

You see me as a white fanboy because you hate whitey.

Letting it sink in.

Not about me dude, it's about your view of whitey in relation to your own identity.
Now you're just talking out of the wrong orifice
In roughly 5 years of being on this forum
Show me one post I made that was against white people
The only time it popped up is when some whitey fanboy said that christian white people are responsible for most of what we have today
Complete and utter BS

Not only is that stupid, it's racist

I have no issue with my identity
I'm Arab/Muslim and I am very proud of both of those
Although the same can't be said about you
You're Chinese, but dis them, and instead you praise the "white people"

I'm not saying any race or religion is better
I think they all had something to do with where we are today
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      06-24-2013, 09:56 PM   #180
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You may say senna drove like that because he felt that god was protecting him
Or
I think he drove like that because he did not want the fear of death to make him push a little less


"I don't know driving in another way which isn't risky. Each one has to improve himself. Each driver has its limit. My limit is a little bit further than other's."
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      06-24-2013, 10:09 PM   #181
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Could everyone agree to not use the word "whitey"? Thanks.
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      06-24-2013, 10:19 PM   #182
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Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
Could everyone agree to not use the word "whitey"? Thanks.
Sorry
I only use it because I can't be bothered to type "white people" every time
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      06-25-2013, 03:39 AM   #183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmarei View Post
Now you're just talking out of the wrong orifice
In roughly 5 years of being on this forum
Show me one post I made that was against white people
The only time it popped up is when some whitey fanboy said that christian white people are responsible for most of what we have today
Complete and utter BS

Not only is that stupid, it's racist

I have no issue with my identity
I'm Arab/Muslim and I am very proud of both of those
Although the same can't be said about you
You're Chinese, but dis them, and instead you praise the "white people"

I'm not saying any race or religion is better
I think they all had something to do with where we are today
It is my contention, that you seem to have a strong opposition to my statement that christian values have overwhelmingly shaped the world we live in today.
You still do not agree with this point.
I don't see any value in arguing it or showing to you have this is the case, as it is probably apparently clear to most people of functioning comprehension - perhaps your are too blinded by your biases to accept it.

I have not dissed my own race, you have insulted them, I did not defend them (because I do not see the need to) therefore to me it is you who sees the need to defend one's own race from any criticism, but I do not where it is valid.
Insecure much?

So to criticise anything regarding race is automatically racist to you?
See, there are no merits to your arguments, the only thing you can do is claim racism.

Regarding the use of 'whitey', I realise its offensive connotations, so I used it in the context of his implication of white and arab superiority over chinese; I would never use it in its hurtful context with respect to other race-relations.
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      06-25-2013, 03:47 AM   #184
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmarei View Post
You may say senna drove like that because he felt that god was protecting him
Or
I think he drove like that because he did not want the fear of death to make him push a little less


"I don't know driving in another way which isn't risky. Each one has to improve himself. Each driver has its limit. My limit is a little bit further than other's."
I understand if you have some kind of pain that pushes you be suicidal, good thing he is the last of his kind, you can be risky but not reckless with regard to the lives of other people.
Schumacher was a ruthless dick but how close was he to death?
Don't bring your suicidal ass anywhere near me.
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      06-25-2013, 03:53 AM   #185
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Is there a master plan or are we pinballs in a machine?

My own spiritual quest so far has brought me to this:

Life is trying to teach you a lesson.
religious version: God is trying to tell you something?
atheist version: There are 'universal laws' that you must adhere to.

Are these two statement really that different?
Now the unsolved; what is that 'lesson' life is trying to teach/tell you?
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      06-25-2013, 09:48 AM   #186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grimlock View Post

Life is trying to teach you a lesson.
religious version: God is trying to tell you something?
atheist version: There are 'universal laws' that you must adhere to.

Are these two statement really that different?
Now the unsolved; what is that 'lesson' life is trying to teach/tell you?
Well stated sir.

ohh btw...

My name is Paul and I am Catholic...

Do I wear a cross ... when I would like to
Do I pray ... when I feel the need
Am I a religious nut ... No, I am an engineer and enjoy the sciences along with embracing my religion
Do I live a religious life ... I live on my own terms and brace the challenges and rewards associated with my decisions

If you haven't gotten my point yet, it is that I choose what to believe, I choose how to implement that into my own life and IIIIIIIII have the right to make it public or keep it private.

On another note, I embrace religion along with science because I feel that it is not a coincedence that everything works out perfectly. Why is it that within a blink of an eye (relative to teh time period of earth) us PEOPLE, ALL PEOPLE have been able to achieve so much. Evolution and devlopment ... of course, but in the long list of other possible roads that civilization could have taken, there is a higher being that has guided us to where we all are today. Look past the destruction and damage and recognize those who lend a kind hand, whether it be sparing some change at the super market, helping you change a tire on your BMW, giving you a spot at the gym or devoting your life to helping others. I tend to focus on the lifestyle that religion preaches and not the violence that extremists and confused individuals try to justify their own actions with.

If you want to criticize then be my guest but I will accept your words, hateful or not and if you ever need a helping hand, I will never hesitate to do so.
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      06-25-2013, 10:28 AM   #187
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grimlock View Post
It is my contention, that you seem to have a strong opposition to my statement that christian values have overwhelmingly shaped the world we live in today.
You still do not agree with this point.
because it is not true


Quote:
Originally Posted by grimlock View Post
I don't see any value in arguing it or showing to you have this is the case, as it is probably apparently clear to most people of functioning comprehension - perhaps your are too blinded by your biases to accept it .
I guess that rules you out
you also could not argue it, because there aren't enough facts to back it up

Quote:
Originally Posted by grimlock View Post
I have not dissed my own race, you have insulted them, I did not defend them (because I do not see the need to) therefore to me it is you who sees the need to defend one's own race from any criticism, but I do not where it is valid.
Insecure much?
when did I insult the Chinese?

plus if you go back and actually read what I wrote
I did not just defend my own race
I said where we are today is not just because of "Christian values"
We would not be where we are, without the Islamic, Judaic, Budhist etc input as well.

to give you a simpler example
could you say that it is the Germans who lead to the States being as successful as it is now?
They are the largest % of immigrants in the US.

the fact is the states is where it is now, not just because of the Germans, but because of the English, French, Italian, Asian, Latino and of course Africans.

Quote:
Originally Posted by grimlock View Post
So to criticise anything regarding race is automatically racist to you?
See, there are no merits to your arguments, the only thing you can do is claim racism.
no but when someone comes out and says we owe what we have now to one specific race/religion, and ignoring the other 5-6 billion people on this planet, it sure sounds racist.

you are aware the racism has been linked to lower IQ?
might want to consider that before you say such stupid statements
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      06-25-2013, 10:46 AM   #188
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Originally Posted by grimlock View Post
I understand if you have some kind of pain that pushes you be suicidal, good thing he is the last of his kind, you can be risky but not reckless with regard to the lives of other people.
Schumacher was a ruthless dick but how close was he to death?
Don't bring your suicidal ass anywhere near me.
funny how the majority of drivers, including Schumacher, consider Senna to be the greatest

http://f1greatestdrivers.autosport.com/?driver=1
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      06-25-2013, 11:02 AM   #189
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Originally Posted by kmarei View Post

you are aware the racism has been linked to lower IQ?
might want to consider that before you say such stupid statements
Damn I must be dumber than a nail. Im racist to every single race there is, especially my own.
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      06-25-2013, 11:05 AM   #190
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmarei View Post
funny how the majority of drivers, including Schumacher, consider Senna to be the greatest

http://f1greatestdrivers.autosport.com/?driver=1
Correct.

The dangers of F1 driving back then stemmed from a lack of safety rather than driver choices. Put the drivers of today back in time with period cars and circuits and i would wager that more than 1 driver wouldn't make it through a full season. Back then there was still some bravado amongst the F1 governing body to make sure that F1 racing was the most exciting form of auto racing on the planet. The untimely death of Senna was the turning point for a focus on safety within F1. In fact, if i'm not mistaken, there hasn't been an F1 driver parish in an F1 race since Senna. Clearly the death of Senna was a huge impact on F1 but many forget that there were 2 deaths in San Marino that race weekend. Roland Ratzenberger died the day before Senna.

One could argue that it was a lack of focus on the track and driving and more of a focus on mortality that lead to his death. Not driving recklessly due to God having a plan.
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      06-25-2013, 11:20 AM   #191
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Originally Posted by Nkc View Post
Damn I must be dumber than a nail. Im racist to every single race there is, especially my own.
Everyone is just a little bit rascist!!!

www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbud8rLejLM

Avenue Q -> hilarious show!!!
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      06-25-2013, 12:03 PM   #192
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      06-25-2013, 12:07 PM   #193
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How can anybody watch the Senna movie and come to the conclusion that his faith caused him to take the risk that caused the fatal crash? The fatal crash had nothing to do with him taking a risk, it was the car, not any risky maneuver.

I'm an atheist, but I seriously doubt that religious people are prone of taking more chances, or sitting back and let life play out as god has planned. That's just ridiculous.
Agreed, absolutely ridiculous.
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      06-25-2013, 12:21 PM   #194
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Originally Posted by Team Plutonium View Post
How can anybody watch the Senna movie and come to the conclusion that his faith caused him to take the risk that caused the fatal crash? The fatal crash had nothing to do with him taking a risk, it was the car, not any risky maneuver.

I'm an atheist, but I seriously doubt that religious people are prone of taking more chances, or sitting back and let life play out as god has planned. That's just ridiculous.
You haven't been witness to all the church going folk racing out of the parking lot sunday afternoon? Getting sideways, doing donuts in the median, lining up to race at the light, no? Maybe you've seen them doing wheelies on their crotch rockets as the leave? They're all like "Woo hooo!!! God will not let me die here, i can go CRAZY!!
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Last edited by Mr Tonka; 06-25-2013 at 06:04 PM.
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      06-25-2013, 12:52 PM   #195
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Really? Senna's fatal accident in Tamburello was caused by his belief in God? Or, Senna was not a good driver? Those are the take-aways many of you got from all this ? Seriously? Wow.

"He thinks he can't kill himself because he believes in God. ... I think that's very dangerous -- for the other drivers."
--Alain Prost

That quote was made by Alain long before that fateful weekend in Imola even began. He was referring to the numerous other instances over the years where Senna intentionally drove into other drivers at speed to influence the outcome in a certain way, regardless of the physical risks it imposed (not only to himself, but others).

Say what you want about Alain; but some things are irrefutable: the man was no dummy and could certainly drive a racecar, and he had a deeper, more accurate insight into Senna himself than any of us on this board enjoy. How many of you spent as much time in his presence as Alain did?

Alain himself has said that Senna had brilliant raw talent, and I'd not dispute that. Neither will many other F1 pilots; no news there. Bringing up surveys about who is the best all-time does nothing to address the point. Certainly lap 1 of Donington '93 was among the greatest single laps ever executed by anyone, anywhere. Still doesnt change the fact that his faith influenced his behaviour in dangerous ways.

If my posts so far tell anyone that I believe that the Tamburello crash was solely due to his faith (and steering column modifications and tire pressure issues didnt play into it), then you might as well block all my future posts; as it would pointless and futile for you to continue to try and comprehend anything else I write.
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      06-25-2013, 01:18 PM   #196
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MiddleAgedAl View Post
"He thinks he can't kill himself because he believes in God. ... I think that's very dangerous -- for the other drivers."
--Alain Prost
Prost also said in 1992:
"If you have God on your side, everything becomes clear."

I think what Prost is saying in the first quote (and what most Christians would agree, I think) is that, while God may have a plan, we still have free will. If we choose to partake in extremely risky behavior, any negative consequence is our fault, not God's. For example, God's not going to give you an "A" on an exam if you don't study -- that's just your own stupidity. [Added per Edit:] Hence, if Senna was abdicating responsible racing to God, then indeed, that would be dangerous, which I would agree.

Being a Christian doesn't mean abdicating responsibility or being a "passenger in the bus" of God's plan. Sure, God has a plan, but we also choose whether we will be a part of that plan and to what extent. God isn't going to force us to do anything (with rare exception, of course). God will accomplish his goal; how and when we get there remains to be seen.
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      06-25-2013, 01:57 PM   #197
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I think what Prost is saying in the first quote (and what most Christians would agree, I think) is that, while God may have a plan, we still have free will. If we choose to partake in extremely risky behavior, any negative consequence is our fault, not God's.
I hear what you are saying there, and that's good. And yet, many are still very quick to play the "it's God's plan" card when things go south. Perhaps not YOU; (sadly, I apparently need to specify that; people here seem to think I am personally attacking them when I describe common behaviors exhibited by many others in their faith.)

I dont mean things that really are out of their control, like being hit by some sudden, natural disaster, or being in the wrong place at the wrong time thru no fault of your own. I'm talking about things where the person clearly had at least some influence, and rather than owning their part of the failure, and learning from it so they can behave differently later, they whip out the old standby "it was part of God's plan". Granted, I can see where that brings comfort and contentedness to them. If I was in charge when something failed, I'd find it a lot easier to sleep at night if I could brainwash myself into thinking it wasnt me, some other entity far more powerful than me was at work.

If you question the existence of God, then it takes away that "accountability abdication card" altogether, now you can't play it, so you have to completely own the outcomes of your choices. That ownership is a very good thing, IMHO, the world could use lots more of that.
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      06-25-2013, 01:59 PM   #198
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