BMW M3 Forum (E90 E92)

BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   M3Post - BMW M3 Forum > BIMMERPOST Universal Forums > Off-Topic Discussions Board > Politics/Religion
 
European Auto Source
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      06-19-2013, 11:52 AM   #89
Hawkeye
Brigadier General
Hawkeye's Avatar
No_Country
45
Rep
3,596
Posts

Drives: '07 Z4 si Coupe, '08 R6
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Holland

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by dreamingat30fps View Post
What I find somewhat amusing is that it's always a benevolent God. What if God is a dick? What if you get to heaven and see God trippin on bath salts eating everyones face?

After all isn't the saying absolute power corrupts absolutely?
Quote:
Originally Posted by kmarei View Post
you are correct
I got confused, I thought he was the one that said he was agnostic

sorry Team Plutonium, you're going straight to hell
just food for thought
that' where all the sluts will be, so it can't all be bad
There is some gold buried in this thread!
__________________
2007 Z4 3.0si Coupe • 6 MT • Black Saphire Metallic • PP • SP • Heated M Seats • Clutch Stop • Stubby
2008 R6 • Raven Black • GPR Steering Stabilizer • Comp Werks FE • Hotbodies Flush Mount Blinkers
2008 Nissan Titan XE King Cab Long Bed • 4x4 • Line-X
Appreciate 0
      06-19-2013, 12:05 PM   #90
Joekerr
Second Lieutenant
64
Rep
315
Posts

Drives: 2008 BMW 335i
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Toronto, ON

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by kmarei View Post
damn, that's a pretty depressing view point
so we are all fucked, but Jesus will save some us only?
kind of makes the whole point of life pointless no?

No matter what you do, you're failing the test
but the teacher will pick a select few failures and give them a passing grade?
Well, I think that perhaps I did a poor job of really developing my point, because I don't find it depressing at all. Let me expand here.

I agree that we can be viewed as failures in that we've sinned, so we do not deserve heaven - effectively we are all going to hell at this point (absent any intervention by God). That view would be depressing yes.

But I think what I failed to drive home was that this isn't the whole picture - God did intervene by sending His only Son (Jesus) to die for us in our place, so that we don't have to go to hell. But this is only if we choose to accept him as our Saviour and believe in Him.

So I think its amazing that God would step in and provide a way for us to be saved from Hell - that cannot be construed as depressing at all. What is depressing is that so many people choose to reject Jesus (because we do have free will to do so) and reject the gift of salvation. These people are effectively choosing to remain "failures" to use your terminology above, but it is their own choice! That's the crux - it is their choice. Its not that God will randomly select a few failures and give them a passing grade at the end of the day - God has provided a way, but we have to accept it too. There is responsibility on our end.

When, as a believer, you think about what God has done for you on the cross you cannot help but be amazed and joyful - its not depressing. And to know that while this life is short, you will enjoy eternity with God is an amazing feeling and one that you look forward to - there is less fear in death. Some Christians have no fear, I am not sure I'm in that exact category to be honest, but I believe I know where I am going and it gives a sense of peace.

Anyways, hope that helps elaborate my original point a little more, I did not mean to convey a sense of hopelessness or depress anyone.
Appreciate 0
      06-19-2013, 12:21 PM   #91
grimlock
Lieutenant Colonel
89
Rep
1,845
Posts

Drives: F10 N52B30@255PS
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Hong Kong

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joekerr View Post
you will enjoy eternity with God is an amazing feeling and one that you look forward to
sounds enjoyable
Appreciate 0
      06-19-2013, 12:54 PM   #92
MiddleAgedAl
First Lieutenant
32
Rep
341
Posts

Drives: M3
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: sitting down, facing the keyboard

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joekerr View Post
I agree that we can be viewed as failures in that we've sinned, so we do not deserve heaven - effectively we are all going to hell at this point (absent any intervention by God). That view would be depressing yes.

But I think what I failed to drive home was that this isn't the whole picture - God did intervene by sending His only Son (Jesus) to die for us in our place, so that we don't have to go to hell. But this is only if we choose to accept him as our Saviour and believe in Him.
What about those who dont have time to think, decide, then make such an informed choice? I mean, if the "default setting", for lack of a better term, is that we are all sinners and will go to hell, without effort on our part to get off that path, then those who dont have a chance to declare their considered acceptance of Jesus being their savior, well they are unfairly screwed.

Many years ago, a colleague of mine lost his baby at just under 3 months old. Terribly sad.

By that age, a child has not had the chance to think and make such a conscious choice to accept Jesus as his savior.
Does that mean this baby will go to hell? You said we are all sinners, although it's hard to imagine what that child has done yet to sin... If that is his fate, then that IS depressing.

If I understand it correctly, your assertion is that actions one does here on earth regarding other people have no little to no bearing on whether you go to hell or not, it's only if you accept Jesus as your saviour. You could spend your life saving lives, helping the poor and the sick, but if you are an athiest, and it turns out you were wrong (ie: there IS a God after all), then your lifetime of good deeds here means nothing, it's straight to hell with you; meanwhile a mass murderer who finds God at the 11th hour enjoys eternity in heaven? That seems really wrong and depressing and hopeless to me..

Assuming I've understood the theory correctly, then once again, I find it more comforting to think there is no God, than to think there is one, but that's how he operates....
Appreciate 0
      06-19-2013, 02:03 PM   #93
PINeely
Lieutenant Colonel
57
Rep
1,586
Posts

Drives: 2009 E90 N54
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Jackson, MS

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by MiddleAgedAl View Post
If I understand it correctly, your assertion is that actions one does here on earth regarding other people have no little to no bearing on whether you go to hell or not, it's only if you accept Jesus as your saviour. You could spend your life saving lives, helping the poor and the sick, but if you are an athiest, and it turns out you were wrong (ie: there IS a God after all), then your lifetime of good deeds here means nothing, it's straight to hell with you; meanwhile a mass murderer who finds God at the 11th hour enjoys eternity in heaven? That seems really wrong and depressing and hopeless to me..
Vestiges of a time when the Clergy were the most powerful people in a society and the only way to stay powerful was to scare participation. We still see people follow the "better safe than sorry" logic today; Christianity hasn't evolved much since then.

If people didn't feel like they would burn in hell for skipping church, they totally would. Church blows.
__________________
Appreciate 0
      06-19-2013, 02:21 PM   #94
Wraith.
Captain
Wraith.'s Avatar
16
Rep
834
Posts

Drives: ED '11 Z4 35is
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Seattle

iTrader: (0)

The power that fairy tales have over human beings is remarkable. My personal opinion is that we as a species will not take that next evolutionary leap until we are able throw off the shackles of the old mysticism(s). However, therein lies the rub, as a vast majority do not believe in evolution the point is moot.
Appreciate 0
      06-19-2013, 02:27 PM   #95
scorcherjf
Captain
scorcherjf's Avatar
11
Rep
769
Posts

Drives: 2008 135i
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: NJ

iTrader: (2)

Garage List
2008 135i  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by grimlock View Post
Vancouver, Hong Kong, BMW .. English, Internet .. you get the idea


To me, God is more believable than aliens..
Not quite sure what you're implying here... that those listed things are a byproduct of christianity? I'd wager my money on aliens tbh...

Still wondering why this thread hasn't been moved to the Politics/Religion subforum.
__________________
Appreciate 0
      06-19-2013, 02:41 PM   #96
Templar
Lieutenant Colonel
Templar's Avatar
United_States
58
Rep
1,842
Posts

Drives: 2011 E92 M3
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: One of the coasts...

iTrader: (1)

Garage List
2011 BMW M3  [5.00]
Love it... shah was successful in his trolling, and was able to spark a somewhat heated debate with people insulting others' beliefs...
__________________
'11 BMW E92 ///M3 - ZCP and DCT
'15 Ford F-250 - Lariat, 6.7 Powerstroke Turbo-diesel
Appreciate 0
      06-19-2013, 04:14 PM   #97
bbbbmw
Captain
9
Rep
621
Posts

Drives: 135i
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Southwest

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxrus14
Circa ~2010. Took then GF home to Pittsburgh from Bible belt of NC. Went to Natural history Museum. Dinosaur bones everywhere... Science has proven they exsisted etc... She said she didn't believe in them as they are not mentioned in Bible. I got rid of here when we got back to NC. I could not believe it. Spent a little over a year with her.


The book of Job in the bible references "the Leviathan" a great beast with no equal. It could certainly be a dinosaur, from the description in Chapter 41 ("Who can strip off its outer coat? Who can penetrate its double coat of armor? Who can open the doors of its mouth, ringed about with fearsome teeth? It's back has rows of shields, tightly sealed together...").

The bible was not written as a science text, but rather as the story of the relationship between God and Mankind. So if God wants to use evolution to achieve His goals in creating the earth, I wouldn't expect to see it in this book - just because it's not mentioned doesn't mean it didn't happen.
__________________
<OO (llll)(llll) OO>
Appreciate 0
      06-19-2013, 04:17 PM   #98
Revlis
Now With 33% MORE Sarcasm Free!
Revlis's Avatar
United_States
64
Rep
3,446
Posts

Drives: 335is
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Seattle Area, WA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Tonka View Post
If it weren't so offensive, this post would almost be comical.

BTW, you were unsuccessful in moving on.


Yet, here is an example of what the post above is talking about. America is doomed since she represents 80% of it's inhabitants.
Yeah, if it offended directly I apologize. IT was certainly over the top, but as you may or may not know mostly I play a role here on E90.
__________________

'13 TiAg over Coral, 335is | DCT | Prem | L7 | Nav/Idrive | CA | 19" "-------"

A BMW is Just a Car, it doesn't make you smart, handsome, cool, or wealthy. Get over it.
Appreciate 0
      06-19-2013, 04:31 PM   #99
bbbbmw
Captain
9
Rep
621
Posts

Drives: 135i
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Southwest

iTrader: (0)

Christianity is about recognizing that God has reached out to us, and our being reunited with Him as a perfect being is made possible by what He did, not by what we do - this is very different than other faiths. Despite various churches/denominations and their prescriptions of how to end up in heaven, the bible clearly states over and over that there is nothing we can do to earn our way - we simply have to accept what He did. It's kind of the point of the whole story - we are not on a good deeds/works quota. Hopefully if you "get it", and have a regular relationship with Him, you will want to live life as He instructs.

Are any of us good enough to earn our way to heaven, or get there by living a "good life?" How good is good enough?

Reading the bible also gives you an insight as to the nature of God. So when a 3 month old child dies, I'm certain He understands innocence and justice better than we do, and has it covered.
__________________
<OO (llll)(llll) OO>
Appreciate 0
      06-19-2013, 05:27 PM   #100
UncleWede
Long Time Admirer, First Time Owner
UncleWede's Avatar
United_States
114
Rep
2,581
Posts

Drives: E90 325i Arctic
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Oxnard, CA

iTrader: (0)

The Crusades, and other similar actions by men, were not actions of God. As is stated throughout history, and this discussion, men are the weak part in the chain.

If the baby was baptized, it goes to heaven. If not, it does NOT go the hell.

Part that seems to be missed, but is my understanding, is there is also a third choice for the afterlife; purgatory. Not as nice as heaven, not as bad as hell. We are born headed to purgatory, not headed to hell. Your deeds CAN earn you a spot in hell. Your deeds CAN NOT earn you a place in heaven. All those who died before JEsus did not go to hell, they were in purgatory. Jesus' death as a sacrifice, as the umblemished lamb of God, opened teh gates to heaven. We can't get there unless Jesus prepares the way.

Often quoted is that we will get to a gate and meet Peter and be asked what we did. My current understanding is that the real question will not really be addressed to us waiting. The question will be to Jesus: "Hey Jeez, this your friend?" He waves you thru, you join the party at his Father's house.


TP, your daughter didn't "learn" about God from you, where did it come from? Those of us who beleive would think that is the Holy Spirit moving her, whispering in her ear. And don't take this as an insult, but if you are like many of the rest of us fathers, your most intimate desire is for her to do better than you, have a better life than you did, avoid as many of the mistakes we made as possible. Maybe your wishes (if not prayers) are being answered.


Of course, that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.
Appreciate 0
      06-19-2013, 06:45 PM   #101
kmarei
Major General
kmarei's Avatar
Egypt
143
Rep
6,540
Posts

Drives: 2015 Alfa Romeo 4C LE
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Reston, VA

iTrader: (33)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joekerr View Post
Well, I think that perhaps I did a poor job of really developing my point, because I don't find it depressing at all. Let me expand here.

I agree that we can be viewed as failures in that we've sinned, so we do not deserve heaven - effectively we are all going to hell at this point (absent any intervention by God). That view would be depressing yes.

But I think what I failed to drive home was that this isn't the whole picture - God did intervene by sending His only Son (Jesus) to die for us in our place, so that we don't have to go to hell. But this is only if we choose to accept him as our Saviour and believe in Him.

So I think its amazing that God would step in and provide a way for us to be saved from Hell - that cannot be construed as depressing at all. What is depressing is that so many people choose to reject Jesus (because we do have free will to do so) and reject the gift of salvation. These people are effectively choosing to remain "failures" to use your terminology above, but it is their own choice! That's the crux - it is their choice. Its not that God will randomly select a few failures and give them a passing grade at the end of the day - God has provided a way, but we have to accept it too. There is responsibility on our end.

When, as a believer, you think about what God has done for you on the cross you cannot help but be amazed and joyful - its not depressing. And to know that while this life is short, you will enjoy eternity with God is an amazing feeling and one that you look forward to - there is less fear in death. Some Christians have no fear, I am not sure I'm in that exact category to be honest, but I believe I know where I am going and it gives a sense of peace.

Anyways, hope that helps elaborate my original point a little more, I did not mean to convey a sense of hopelessness or depress anyone.
Well that opens up a whole can of worms
Because basically we (all gods creations) were all badly designed
We were designed that no matter what actions we take
We will not live up to the standard
Unless we believe that he sacrificed his only son to spare us?

I am not sure i could worship a god that kills his own son to save his underlings
If he is all powerful couldn't he just wish our salvation and it would happen ?(without the crucifixion part)?

That's actually one of my favorite quotes from the Quran
That when god wants something
"He says be, and it is"
I mean that is what all powerful is in my book

So what if I accept Jesus as my savior, but I happen to have a weak spot for women?
And I sort of sleep around with a lot of them?
__________________
Appreciate 0
      06-19-2013, 06:47 PM   #102
kmarei
Major General
kmarei's Avatar
Egypt
143
Rep
6,540
Posts

Drives: 2015 Alfa Romeo 4C LE
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Reston, VA

iTrader: (33)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Plutonium View Post
F@ck. But I have to swim through the see of f@ckign fire to get to those sluts... that's gonna suck.

Maybe I should just switch form being an atheist to an agnostic just to be safe.
Men have done much worse things for pu$$y
And hopefully if all goes well with the sluts
It will suck
__________________
Appreciate 0
      06-19-2013, 06:54 PM   #103
kmarei
Major General
kmarei's Avatar
Egypt
143
Rep
6,540
Posts

Drives: 2015 Alfa Romeo 4C LE
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Reston, VA

iTrader: (33)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by MiddleAgedAl View Post
What about those who dont have time to think, decide, then make such an informed choice? I mean, if the "default setting", for lack of a better term, is that we are all sinners and will go to hell, without effort on our part to get off that path, then those who dont have a chance to declare their considered acceptance of Jesus being their savior, well they are unfairly screwed.

Many years ago, a colleague of mine lost his baby at just under 3 months old. Terribly sad.

By that age, a child has not had the chance to think and make such a conscious choice to accept Jesus as his savior.
Does that mean this baby will go to hell? You said we are all sinners, although it's hard to imagine what that child has done yet to sin... If that is his fate, then that IS depressing.

If I understand it correctly, your assertion is that actions one does here on earth regarding other people have no little to no bearing on whether you go to hell or not, it's only if you accept Jesus as your saviour. You could spend your life saving lives, helping the poor and the sick, but if you are an athiest, and it turns out you were wrong (ie: there IS a God after all), then your lifetime of good deeds here means nothing, it's straight to hell with you; meanwhile a mass murderer who finds God at the 11th hour enjoys eternity in heaven? That seems really wrong and depressing and hopeless to me..

Assuming I've understood the theory correctly, then once again, I find it more comforting to think there is no God, than to think there is one, but that's how he operates....
In Islam it works a little different
We are sort of innocent until proven guilty
And it's written that all those that have not achieved puberty, if they die, Do not get judged.
I mean how can you judge a 9 year old who's worst deed was lying about not breaking the vase?

Regarding your last line
I think of it differently
He created the universe, sort of got the ball rolling
What happens at a later choosing is our affected by our choices

I think it might be better to believe there is a god, but that all religions are messed up
I totally understand agnostics
Much more than I understand being atheist
All religions have issues, but that should not undermine your belief in god
I have a lot of issues with my own religion
But overall, it's the most acceptable option, to me a least
__________________
Appreciate 0
      06-19-2013, 09:11 PM   #104
Mr Tonka
Tonka.... Mr. Tonka
United_States
63
Rep
1,228
Posts

Drives: Exceptionally well :)
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Tampa, FL

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Revlis View Post
Yeah, if it offended directly I apologize. IT was certainly over the top, but as you may or may not know mostly I play a role here on E90.
Meh.. no sweat. The warning in your avatar helps with the explanation.
__________________
-Joe


"Government is the great fiction, through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else." — Frιdιric Bastiat
Appreciate 0
      06-20-2013, 12:21 AM   #105
bbbbmw
Captain
9
Rep
621
Posts

Drives: 135i
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Southwest

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleWede
The Crusades, and other similar actions by men, were not actions of God. As is stated throughout history, and this discussion, men are the weak part in the chain.

If the baby was baptized, it goes to heaven. If not, it does NOT go the hell.

Part that seems to be missed, but is my understanding, is there is also a third choice for the afterlife; purgatory. Not as nice as heaven, not as bad as hell. We are born headed to purgatory, not headed to hell. Your deeds CAN earn you a spot in hell. Your deeds CAN NOT earn you a place in heaven. All those who died before JEsus did not go to hell, they were in purgatory. Jesus' death as a sacrifice, as the umblemished lamb of God, opened teh gates to heaven. We can't get there unless Jesus prepares the way.

Often quoted is that we will get to a gate and meet Peter and be asked what we did. My current understanding is that the real question will not really be addressed to us waiting. The question will be to Jesus: "Hey Jeez, this your friend?" He waves you thru, you join the party at his Father's house.


TP, your daughter didn't "learn" about God from you, where did it come from? Those of us who beleive would think that is the Holy Spirit moving her, whispering in her ear. And don't take this as an insult, but if you are like many of the rest of us fathers, your most intimate desire is for her to do better than you, have a better life than you did, avoid as many of the mistakes we made as possible. Maybe your wishes (if not prayers) are being answered.


Of course, that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

There is nothing in the bible about Purgatory, and the process you described. Catholics interpret several scriptures to validate the concept, but many disagree that there is such a "place" or process.
__________________
<OO (llll)(llll) OO>
Appreciate 0
      06-20-2013, 12:57 AM   #106
grimlock
Lieutenant Colonel
89
Rep
1,845
Posts

Drives: F10 N52B30@255PS
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Hong Kong

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by scorcherjf View Post
Not quite sure what you're implying here... that those listed things are a byproduct of christianity? I'd wager my money on aliens tbh...

Still wondering why this thread hasn't been moved to the Politics/Religion subforum.
yes, christianity is irremovable from the development of mankind or the 'white race' .. which is pretty much responsible for everything you see in the modern world
now not all members of western civilization are practicing Christians, but it forms the bedrock

because there is no shouting and screaming
Appreciate 0
      06-20-2013, 11:02 AM   #107
Wraith.
Captain
Wraith.'s Avatar
16
Rep
834
Posts

Drives: ED '11 Z4 35is
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Seattle

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by grimlock View Post
yes, christianity is irremovable from the development of mankind or the 'white race' .. which is pretty much responsible for everything you see in the modern world
now not all members of western civilization are practicing Christians, but it forms the bedrock

because there is no shouting and screaming
Wow..., I don't even know where to begin..
Appreciate 0
      06-20-2013, 11:12 AM   #108
kmarei
Major General
kmarei's Avatar
Egypt
143
Rep
6,540
Posts

Drives: 2015 Alfa Romeo 4C LE
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Reston, VA

iTrader: (33)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by grimlock View Post
yes, christianity is irremovable from the development of mankind or the 'white race' .. which is pretty much responsible for everything you see in the modern world
now not all members of western civilization are practicing Christians, but it forms the bedrock

because there is no shouting and screaming
well it's not jus Christianity that forms the bedrock
Judaism and Islam added a lot
Islam added things like Algebra, Trigonometry, Cameras, surgical instruments, windmills, inoculation , and the one that has probably lead to the most number of other inventions, coffee
__________________
Appreciate 0
      06-20-2013, 11:24 AM   #109
grimlock
Lieutenant Colonel
89
Rep
1,845
Posts

Drives: F10 N52B30@255PS
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Hong Kong

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by kmarei View Post
well it's not jus Christianity that forms the bedrock
Judaism and Islam added a lot
Islam added things like Algebra, Trigonometry, Cameras, surgical instruments, windmills, inoculation , and the one that has probably lead to the most number of other inventions, coffee
Subtract everything you see in the world from those things that you mentioned and tell me white people/christians had nothing to do with it.


I'm not one to put down Islam, or Buddhism or whatever, but isn't it quite clear the WIN in the religion category belongs to Christians? (I am not a Christian.)
Appreciate 0
      06-20-2013, 11:36 AM   #110
keepittrill
Banned
keepittrill's Avatar
United_States
15
Rep
573
Posts

Drives: "Daddy-bought" 2010 Z4
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Phoenix, Arizona

iTrader: (0)

Pretty sure Arabs invented WAY more things than the Christians, who at that time were worried about their crusades ;P
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:31 PM.




m3post
m3post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST