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      07-11-2013, 02:06 AM   #309
grimlock
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Quote:
Originally Posted by i dunno View Post
They don't overlap, and it's not a seesaw where you lean one way or the other. They exist separately to answer different parts of the human experience. Science is used to approach the working structure of the physical universe while faith tries to place this structure and the meaning of one's personal existence in a broader ontological context.
So are you saying logic is applied to science, faith is how you as an individual experience this physical reality.. ie. your 'relativism' in the context of subjectivity/objectivity like in einstein's relative speed of light.
That makes sense, just a different way of looking at the same thing - science being linking inextricably to each other as 'facts' in strict logic, while faith is what is 'behind' you as you stand on nexus of subjectivity/objectivity.
You say science, these things are objective (in the logic sense), and my experience is the subjective.
I am saying the same thing, but introduced the extra definition of subjective/objective to simply logic and experience(to the viewer) so that they can be expressed using the same objective wording of logic(science).

You just choose to have the distinction at experience, I am trying to remove this distinction.
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      07-11-2013, 02:14 AM   #310
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Quote:
Originally Posted by i dunno View Post
Logic is a human construct bound to the limits of our dimension. How can you use a tool meant only for our world to explore a higher existence beyond ours?
How else is there to understand the world in a way that is expressible. I give that logic is the only way.
Experience, feelings, revelation etc. all feed ultimately to logic .. which forms our beliefs. It's simply a function of the cognitive brain, and wholey definitive as the action to 'think'.
If there is something or a level beyond comprehension, how could we know it?
A blind animal cannot see light.
A brainless animal cannot make the connection between two events.
And it there were some level beyond this, it would be irrelevent to us as we could not perceive it.
But then is knowing that there is something beyond which we cannot perceive, violates this clause that we cannot perceive beyond what we are not made to perceive?
Is this ability to consider that which we cannot know (ie. faith in the context of Faith= what we + what we don't know) already at the limit of EVERTHING?
ie. to be able to contemplate infinity means we have reached infinity and thus nothing can exist beyond.
Hence, I think , therefor what can be beyond? (given you understand the concept of 'beyond', or what we don't know, or faith)

?????
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      07-11-2013, 10:28 AM   #311
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grimlock View Post
I realize I have been condesenceding when talking about my viewpoints.. I am trying to work on a way not to.

I have not felt God so far .. but I feel logic. Does that make sense?
I feel the unity of all logics (as they should, how can logic be seperate or in some cases contradictory?)

What would happen if you thought about logic itself? Like why does logic exist?
To me, this is the existential.. where logic starts to consider itself .. and voila there is God!
(I am aware I sound like I have lost my mind.. )
Why is it you are trying to find a reason for why things exist? Of course this will lead you to answers that are just as silly as the question. GIGO.
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      07-11-2013, 11:47 AM   #312
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grimlock View Post
If there is something or a level beyond comprehension, how could we know it?
A blind animal cannot see light.
A brainless animal cannot make the connection between two events.
And it there were some level beyond this, it would be irrelevent to us as we could not perceive it.
But then is knowing that there is something beyond which we cannot perceive, violates this clause that we cannot perceive beyond what we are not made to perceive?
Is this ability to consider that which we cannot know (ie. faith in the context of Faith= what we + what we don't know) already at the limit of EVERTHING?
We don't know it. That's why it's faith. It's similar to the comparison to the blind animal that cannot see light. The light is there, but it's not directly perceivable. It's up to you to choose to believe whether or not there's something beyond. Logic has no bearing in this. No one really knows, and those that claim to know or experience divinity don't base it on physical evidence. If you only care about what you can directly perceive with your senses, then that's perfectly fine too.

Last edited by i dunno; 07-11-2013 at 11:53 AM.
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      07-11-2013, 12:00 PM   #313
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grimlock View Post
So are you saying logic is applied to science, faith is how you as an individual experience this physical reality.. ie. your 'relativism' in the context of subjectivity/objectivity like in einstein's relative speed of light.
That makes sense, just a different way of looking at the same thing - science being linking inextricably to each other as 'facts' in strict logic, while faith is what is 'behind' you as you stand on nexus of subjectivity/objectivity.
You say science, these things are objective (in the logic sense), and my experience is the subjective.
I am saying the same thing, but introduced the extra definition of subjective/objective to simply logic and experience(to the viewer) so that they can be expressed using the same objective wording of logic(science).

You just choose to have the distinction at experience, I am trying to remove this distinction.
Since you've mentioned Einstein, he was also known for his religious beliefs. I don't think you understand what I'm saying. Faith isn't about how we experience the physical reality. It tries to place our physical experience and existence on a broader supernatural context.
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      07-11-2013, 12:19 PM   #314
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All thinking is certainly not logic, grimlock. Many people do many illogical things, religion prominent amongst them.

That said, religion and science are trying to answer many of the big questions...how'd we get here...why are things the way they are...what causes various things to happen...what should we do. Religion was a very primitive, simplistic way to explain things, bond socieities together, and enforce rules. When 95% of the population was focused primarily on finding ways to not starve to death, it's also really all we had the resources for. The religions that have proliferated are also naturally self-propagating.

As we've learned more, science and logic has replaced a lot of the "why" questions from natural phenonoma to ethics, and we've benefited much more than we did from the old authorative arguments and trying to appeal to dieties to make things happen (e.g. praying/dancing/sacrificing for rain vs. developing irrigation and drought-resistant crops).

So, in this sense, science and religion DO occupy the same space. Religion is thus relegated more to the etheral boundaries and wishful thinking of human experience...the God of the gaps. It's more or less always been a place-holder explaination for things we don't understand, and those things grow fewer by the day. It'll presist, however, due to its self-propagating nature, social pressure, and the insecurity and fears people have about illogical things such as wondering what happens after we die (there's really no reason to think anything happens- just millenia of fear and wishful thinking backed by no evidence.)

Trying to understand a higher existence, i dunno? Why do you presume there is such a thing? You can hypothesize about it, but trying to understand something that can't even be shown to exist is usually called "fantasy"

Einstein was a secular Jew, not that that matters in the slightest.
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      07-11-2013, 01:51 PM   #315
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carve View Post
All thinking is certainly not logic, grimlock. Many people do many illogical things, religion prominent amongst them.

That said, religion and science are trying to answer many of the big questions...how'd we get here...why are things the way they are...what causes various things to happen...what should we do. Religion was a very primitive, simplistic way to explain things, bond socieities together, and enforce rules. When 95% of the population was focused primarily on finding ways to not starve to death, it's also really all we had the resources for. The religions that have proliferated are also naturally self-propagating.

As we've learned more, science and logic has replaced a lot of the "why" questions from natural phenonoma to ethics, and we've benefited much more than we did from the old authorative arguments and trying to appeal to dieties to make things happen (e.g. praying/dancing/sacrificing for rain vs. developing irrigation and drought-resistant crops).

So, in this sense, science and religion DO occupy the same space. Religion is thus relegated more to the etheral boundaries and wishful thinking of human experience...the God of the gaps. It's more or less always been a place-holder explaination for things we don't understand, and those things grow fewer by the day. It'll presist, however, due to its self-propagating nature, social pressure, and the insecurity and fears people have about illogical things such as wondering what happens after we die (there's really no reason to think anything happens- just millenia of fear and wishful thinking backed by no evidence.)

Trying to understand a higher existence, i dunno? Why do you presume there is such a thing? You can hypothesize about it, but trying to understand something that can't even be shown to exist is usually called "fantasy"

Einstein was a secular Jew, not that that matters in the slightest.
Einstein was secular in a sense that he tried to separate himself from a religious label, but he was still very concerned with the metaphysical. I guess he was more agnostic. I'm just trying to point out that you can live your life and treat the world scientifically, but that doesn't conflict with having beliefs in more than just the physical world.

I'm not presuming it exists. I have no idea if it exists or not. I would say that I'd like to believe that there's more to life than what we can perceive with our senses, but I really can't say for sure. "Trying to understand something that can't even be shown to exist" is what empowers faith. It can't be proven. You just believe or don't believe. People try to understand it through prayer, church, meditation, whatever. They're trying to align our existence with something more. Ultimately, it's not about natural occurrences and worldly concerns.

Science answers questions of how. How did we get here? Maybe the early conditions of Earth promoted the chemical synthesis of amino acids. Why do we exist? I dunno.

Last edited by i dunno; 07-11-2013 at 03:23 PM.
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      07-11-2013, 04:27 PM   #316
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Scientific instruments enable us to preceive all kinds of things we can't preceive with our unaided senses. However, there's no reason to presume you can know anything about those things until we can examine them. You can hypothesize how they exist and interact with things we can preceive, build your device, and learn. You can't skip straight from the hypothesis to the learning though.
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      07-11-2013, 08:39 PM   #317
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By senses, I meant that to include scientific instruments as well - anything measurable or observable. Are you saying that someday we'll eventually be technologically advanced enough to discover the meaning of life or definitively say there is or isn't a higher power?
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      07-12-2013, 02:00 AM   #318
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scorcherjf View Post
Why is it you are trying to find a reason for why things exist? Of course this will lead you to answers that are just as silly as the question. GIGO.
Because being.
All beings want the good, not the bad.
How to get the good, avoid the bad?
Children don't spend much time thinking about God, because their minds haven't developed yet, or they have not encountered hurdles that cause them to ask questions.
All of us have questions, which led us to being here right now.
GIGO will indeed give you incorrect answers.. what are we doing but this very thing right now?
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      07-12-2013, 02:12 AM   #319
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Quote:
Originally Posted by i dunno View Post
We don't know it. That's why it's faith. It's similar to the comparison to the blind animal that cannot see light. The light is there, but it's not directly perceivable. It's up to you to choose to believe whether or not there's something beyond. Logic has no bearing in this. No one really knows, and those that claim to know or experience divinity don't base it on physical evidence. If you only care about what you can directly perceive with your senses, then that's perfectly fine too.
I don't believe there is this distinction that it is imperceivable and thus must entirely rely on faith. Is that what the pastor tells you to do?
I am cutting out the middle man, institutionized religion, which ad their bit about needing to rely on their because you don't know, and they imply deceivingly that they do.
There needs to be no such distinction between what you know and can perceive, and what you are not able to perceive. I believe you are able to perceive. For all the good (?) organized religion does, this is a definite cost - don't believe that you need them or they are telling you the truth.
Look what Augustine does, supposedly a leader in his time, how does he know God - he asks himself everyday just like you and I do.. don't accord the authority figure more credence than he deserves.


Quote:
Originally Posted by i dunno View Post
Since you've mentioned Einstein, he was also known for his religious beliefs. I don't think you understand what I'm saying. Faith isn't about how we experience the physical reality. It tries to place our physical experience and existence on a broader supernatural context.
Faith that DOES NOT depend on your own experience is simply believing in fairy tales.
If my 'God' (that is, one of logic) is correct he would not want you to believe blindly and not do the work yourself.
I believe this 'faith' is a bridge for the people who cannot think/feel God for themselves - "just believe".
The modern world may favor compartmentalization and we should believe the pastor over ourselves when it comes to God, but if you want something to be done right you should do it yourself?
Sure, if you have no time or inclination going to Church is better for your life than not, but if you want deeper understanding of the matter you have to think about it for yourself.
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      07-12-2013, 02:21 AM   #320
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carve View Post
All thinking is certainly not logic, grimlock. Many people do many illogical things, religion prominent amongst them.

That said, religion and science are trying to answer many of the big questions...how'd we get here...why are things the way they are...what causes various things to happen...what should we do. Religion was a very primitive, simplistic way to explain things, bond socieities together, and enforce rules. When 95% of the population was focused primarily on finding ways to not starve to death, it's also really all we had the resources for. The religions that have proliferated are also naturally self-propagating.

As we've learned more, science and logic has replaced a lot of the "why" questions from natural phenonoma to ethics, and we've benefited much more than we did from the old authorative arguments and trying to appeal to dieties to make things happen (e.g. praying/dancing/sacrificing for rain vs. developing irrigation and drought-resistant crops).

So, in this sense, science and religion DO occupy the same space. Religion is thus relegated more to the etheral boundaries and wishful thinking of human experience...the God of the gaps. It's more or less always been a place-holder explaination for things we don't understand, and those things grow fewer by the day. It'll presist, however, due to its self-propagating nature, social pressure, and the insecurity and fears people have about illogical things such as wondering what happens after we die (there's really no reason to think anything happens- just millenia of fear and wishful thinking backed by no evidence.)

Trying to understand a higher existence, i dunno? Why do you presume there is such a thing? You can hypothesize about it, but trying to understand something that can't even be shown to exist is usually called "fantasy"

Einstein was a secular Jew, not that that matters in the slightest.
All thinking IS logic.
What some people do is not thinking .. well okay, mechanically it is, but they came up with the wrong answer because they look for supporting facts and ignore the contradictory ones.

Yes, religion/faith is a placeholder for what we don't know..
hence Truth = what you know + what you don't know(faith)

I don't know why people are superstitutious - as I certainly am not. The closest I come is when I reboot the computer a certain way after it crashes to increase the chances it won't crash again ()
Superstition = not knowing how something works, but believing you can affect the result by a certain action
Hmm..

I haven't said anything on higher existence /afterlife.
All my considerations do not include an afterlife.
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      07-12-2013, 02:27 AM   #321
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Quote:
Originally Posted by i dunno View Post
Einstein was secular in a sense that he tried to separate himself from a religious label, but he was still very concerned with the metaphysical. I guess he was more agnostic. I'm just trying to point out that you can live your life and treat the world scientifically, but that doesn't conflict with having beliefs in more than just the physical world.

I'm not presuming it exists. I have no idea if it exists or not. I would say that I'd like to believe that there's more to life than what we can perceive with our senses, but I really can't say for sure. "Trying to understand something that can't even be shown to exist" is what empowers faith. It can't be proven. You just believe or don't believe. People try to understand it through prayer, church, meditation, whatever. They're trying to align our existence with something more. Ultimately, it's not about natural occurrences and worldly concerns.

Science answers questions of how. How did we get here? Maybe the early conditions of Earth promoted the chemical synthesis of amino acids. Why do we exist? I dunno.
If you put it that way, I guess that makes you a religious scientist.. rather than a scientist who has faith.
The distinction being that in my mind faith necessarily supersedes science, because you are a PART of the physical world, or you are the nexus, you are the physical world PLUS ONE (existence, the subjective over the objective, the 'viewer' in Buddism)
So you may consider yourself a scientist who also subscribes to God .. but from my view that makes you a servant of God as your beliefs necessarily entail what you do in your life (science) as a service to that God..
IOW you see yourself as a person who does these things in the physical world, and believe in the unphysical world
But for it to make sense to me, the 'Boss' (God) controls you and makes you act in the physical world, unknownst to you.. whereas I don't know if you have made this distinction or see yourself in this way.
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      07-12-2013, 07:39 PM   #322
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grimlock View Post
I don't believe there is this distinction that it is imperceivable and thus must entirely rely on faith. Is that what the pastor tells you to do?
I am cutting out the middle man, institutionized religion, which ad their bit about needing to rely on their because you don't know, and they imply deceivingly that they do.
There needs to be no such distinction between what you know and can perceive, and what you are not able to perceive. I believe you are able to perceive. For all the good (?) organized religion does, this is a definite cost - don't believe that you need them or they are telling you the truth.
Look what Augustine does, supposedly a leader in his time, how does he know God - he asks himself everyday just like you and I do.. don't accord the authority figure more credence than he deserves.




Faith that DOES NOT depend on your own experience is simply believing in fairy tales.
If my 'God' (that is, one of logic) is correct he would not want you to believe blindly and not do the work yourself.
I believe this 'faith' is a bridge for the people who cannot think/feel God for themselves - "just believe".
The modern world may favor compartmentalization and we should believe the pastor over ourselves when it comes to God, but if you want something to be done right you should do it yourself?
Sure, if you have no time or inclination going to Church is better for your life than not, but if you want deeper understanding of the matter you have to think about it for yourself.
I never mentioned organized religion. I never said you need to rely on an institution or church. I dunno how that got brought up.

If faith is based on experience, what do people experience in life that prove that their beliefs are true? Many nonreligious people say that religion is just that, old fairy tales.

If anything, believing blindly requires you to do the most work. There's no way to prove to yourself and to others that what you believe is true. You must have the conviction to just accept it, and that takes a lot of guts. You just live through life holding on to these beliefs hoping that you're right at the end.
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      07-13-2013, 03:57 AM   #323
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Innocent until proven guilty:

In this case, being innocent means the person has not commited a crime. If he has, it has to be proven. His innocence cannot be proven, his guilt must.

You cannot prove something didn't happen, or doesn't exist. And if you claim it did happen or does exist, you must prove it!

Now let's talk about faith:

Faith is a belief without much physical evidence. But many laws and actions are based on that. Which is totally wrong! If you want to pass a law or judgement, you must be able to justify that judgement by way of proof.

Now let's come to Human beings. Human beings were created ( I don't care how or by whom ) to worship for some strange reason. Is it the natural instincts that many animals have? Like dogs for example?

Dogs are pack animals, and they are instincly designed and programmed to follow the alpha male. They were engineered that way.

Humans have been worshipping way before any religion came to existence. Be it statues or fire or light or whatever... worship has been a major part of human beings exitence.

Why?

Perhaps just like dogs, we were engineered that way. We are pack animals, we would like to follow a leader and have faith in that leaders decisions! It's the way to survival.. simple!

Whether it's true or not doesn't matter. It's a way for survival!
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      07-13-2013, 12:05 PM   #324
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ahmed View Post
Innocent until proven guilty:

In this case, being innocent means the person has not commited a crime. If he has, it has to be proven. His innocence cannot be proven, his guilt must.

You cannot prove something didn't happen, or doesn't exist. And if you claim it did happen or does exist, you must prove it!

Now let's talk about faith:

Faith is a belief without much physical evidence. But many laws and actions are based on that. Which is totally wrong! If you want to pass a law or judgement, you must be able to justify that judgement by way of proof.

Now let's come to Human beings. Human beings were created ( I don't care how or by whom ) to worship for some strange reason. Is it the natural instincts that many animals have? Like dogs for example?

Dogs are pack animals, and they are instincly designed and programmed to follow the alpha male. They were engineered that way.

Humans have been worshipping way before any religion came to existence. Be it statues or fire or light or whatever... worship has been a major part of human beings exitence.

Why?

Perhaps just like dogs, we were engineered that way. We are pack animals, we would like to follow a leader and have faith in that leaders decisions! It's the way to survival.. simple!

Whether it's true or not doesn't matter. It's a way for survival!
So for you, the idea of a god or deities is just a figment of our genetic programming? You may not care about how or why we exist, but there's lots of others that do. Whether it was through coincidence or intelligent design, I think it's a question worth exploring.
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      07-13-2013, 06:21 PM   #325
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Agreed, the magic word is "exploring". We will leave that to the explorers, meanwhile.. I'll keep living.
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      07-13-2013, 09:28 PM   #326
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ahmed View Post
Agreed, the magic word is "exploring". We will leave that to the explorers, meanwhile.. I'll keep living.
You guys realize that my post is number 345 and nothing has been or will be resolved on this topic. Further more nothing will ever be resolved on this topic as long as man has a mind.
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      07-14-2013, 08:37 AM   #327
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Quote:
Originally Posted by i dunno View Post
I never mentioned organized religion. I never said you need to rely on an institution or church. I dunno how that got brought up.

If faith is based on experience, what do people experience in life that prove that their beliefs are true? Many nonreligious people say that religion is just that, old fairy tales.

If anything, believing blindly requires you to do the most work. There's no way to prove to yourself and to others that what you believe is true. You must have the conviction to just accept it, and that takes a lot of guts. You just live through life holding on to these beliefs hoping that you're right at the end.
To me it's not just faith because I can see it and use it - the 'universal law'.
The thing you are supposed to have faith to believe in, well it's because you can't see/feel it so you have to trust.
I don't trust at all.. so to me its pure science (logical).
Not that it's a bunch of fairy tales, but the reasoning behind them is universal.. and pervasive
Kind of like the hologram pictures - can you see it?
Well no amount of hoping and trying to make yourself see it is going to affect whether you see it or not

I don't work on my faith as such, more on my contradictions which point to false beliefs and the search for the correct beliefs (=the truth) which is my spiritual quest.
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      07-14-2013, 08:38 AM   #328
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ahmed View Post
Agreed, the magic word is "exploring". We will leave that to the explorers, meanwhile.. I'll keep living.
This thread should attract the searchers and not the people busy living, so what are you doing here? Do you feel doubt in your ways?
HAHAH
I sound like a preacher
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      07-14-2013, 08:40 AM   #329
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 42 View Post
You guys realize that my post is number 345 and nothing has been or will be resolved on this topic. Further more nothing will ever be resolved on this topic as long as man has a mind.
We are never there .. until we are.
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      07-14-2013, 08:49 AM   #330
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ahmed View Post
Innocent until proven guilty:

In this case, being innocent means the person has not commited a crime. If he has, it has to be proven. His innocence cannot be proven, his guilt must.

You cannot prove something didn't happen, or doesn't exist. And if you claim it did happen or does exist, you must prove it!

Now let's talk about faith:

Faith is a belief without much physical evidence. But many laws and actions are based on that. Which is totally wrong! If you want to pass a law or judgement, you must be able to justify that judgement by way of proof.

Now let's come to Human beings. Human beings were created ( I don't care how or by whom ) to worship for some strange reason. Is it the natural instincts that many animals have? Like dogs for example?

Dogs are pack animals, and they are instincly designed and programmed to follow the alpha male. They were engineered that way.

Humans have been worshipping way before any religion came to existence. Be it statues or fire or light or whatever... worship has been a major part of human beings exitence.

Why?

Perhaps just like dogs, we were engineered that way. We are pack animals, we would like to follow a leader and have faith in that leaders decisions! It's the way to survival.. simple!

Whether it's true or not doesn't matter. It's a way for survival!
I appreciate this practical and realistic viewpoint..
Seems like you do not believe as you purport to that guilt must be proven because a person is inherently innocent.
This is what you have been told and you believe you believe.. but I detect doubt on this matter.
Where is this doubt? Can you sense it?
Appreciate 0
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