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      06-25-2013, 02:09 PM   #199
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Originally Posted by Team Plutonium View Post
How can anybody watch the Senna movie and come to the conclusion that his faith caused him to take the risk that caused the fatal crash? The fatal crash had nothing to do with him taking a risk, it was the car, not any risky maneuver.

I'm an atheist, but I seriously doubt that religious people are prone of taking more chances, or sitting back and let life play out as god has planned. That's just ridiculous.
you mean his faith didn't break the suspension cross member that pierced his helmet??
what kind of nonsense is this !!

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      06-25-2013, 02:27 PM   #200
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Originally Posted by pgviper View Post
Well stated sir.

ohh btw...

My name is Paul and I am Catholic...

Do I wear a cross ... when I would like to
Do I pray ... when I feel the need
Am I a religious nut ... No, I am an engineer and enjoy the sciences along with embracing my religion
Do I live a religious life ... I live on my own terms and brace the challenges and rewards associated with my decisions

If you haven't gotten my point yet, it is that I choose what to believe, I choose how to implement that into my own life and IIIIIIIII have the right to make it public or keep it private.

On another note, I embrace religion along with science because I feel that it is not a coincedence that everything works out perfectly. Why is it that within a blink of an eye (relative to teh time period of earth) us PEOPLE, ALL PEOPLE have been able to achieve so much. Evolution and devlopment ... of course, but in the long list of other possible roads that civilization could have taken, there is a higher being that has guided us to where we all are today. Look past the destruction and damage and recognize those who lend a kind hand, whether it be sparing some change at the super market, helping you change a tire on your BMW, giving you a spot at the gym or devoting your life to helping others. I tend to focus on the lifestyle that religion preaches and not the violence that extremists and confused individuals try to justify their own actions with.

If you want to criticize then be my guest but I will accept your words, hateful or not and if you ever need a helping hand, I will never hesitate to do so.
Well said.
I share similar beliefs. I believe in science, yet there is something 'else' that exists..
'Perfect truth' can only be something to strive for, lest knowing it contradicts the essence of being human, which is imperfection..? If only I could believe my own crap.
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      06-25-2013, 02:31 PM   #201
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Kmarei,
Since you believe "There are two opinions in this world. Mine and the wrong one."
I shall leave it at that.
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      06-25-2013, 02:37 PM   #202
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On "God's plan" or the absolution of blame, I believe the line is attribution - that is, what is truly your fault and what is due to the pre-existing 'shitty condition'.

Like if you were driving along and some car hits you, to you "apparently for no reason", and you consider it not your fault. But what if your passengers, other motorists witnesses all state you ran a red that directly resulted in the accident?
Therein lies the problem of attribution. We are blind to out own faults, or we are unwilling to face them.
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      06-25-2013, 03:06 PM   #203
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If you question the existence of God, then it takes away that "accountability abdication card" altogether, now you can't play it, so you have to completely own the outcomes of your choices. That ownership is a very good thing, IMHO, the world could use lots more of that.
I think we can have some level of agreement here. I think being a Christian means taking more ownership of your behavior, not less. God gave man a conscience and a mind, as well as a will to apply and use them. And if our actions have caused harm or damage to others, those faculties, by the Spirit of God, would -- I hope -- lead us first to confess that harm (to God) and then to accept responsibility (to the person we wronged).

Of course, I'd like to stress that, even on this point, no one's perfect, and I can't even say, for a fact, that Christians are better at accepting responsibility than non-Christians. However, I just wanted to point out that the above is a Christian principle; whether it's consistently followed by Christians all the time -- well, there's always the problem of human nature.
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      06-25-2013, 03:37 PM   #204
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Some will do the right thing just because it's the right thing to do. Others will only reluctantly do it when you remove other choices and force them.

Certainly people are not perfect by nature. If given a choice to do right or wrong, all of us, from time to time, will choose the wrong/easy path, for any number of reasons which seem justified at the time.

Taking away a choice will reduce alternatives, and help to force people do the right thing, no matter how unpleasant it will seem at the time. Later on in life, they will enjoy the dividends of having learned to do that.

Clearly, societal constructs such as organized religion have some good elements, but they also have bad elements. Perpetuating the elements that create more options for people to lay blame elsewhere is not a good thing.

If taking more responsibility for your actions is a Christian value, then I'd expect that a preacher should stop and gently correct those who indiscriminately overuse the "it was God's plan" card. It's tough love, but in the long run, wouldnt that help the affected person, and society overall? (I mean do so in a supportive way, to help the person get pointed back in the right direction, not a harsh punitive way.)

Has anyone ever seen that happen ?

Maybe the damage it would inflict to the overall narrative is deemed to be too great, so they can't risk doing so ?
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      06-25-2013, 05:14 PM   #205
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It's called "holding each other accountable" in the Christian world - and it's pretty huge. It's based in scripture, and happens everywhere in Christianity. The idea that we sit back and let God's Plan happen is not how it works. He has a plan, and we have a choice - as someone previously mentioned. It's our responsibility to align ours with His.
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      06-25-2013, 07:12 PM   #206
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Kmarei,
Since you believe "There are two opinions in this world. Mine and the wrong one."
I shall leave it at that.
See
Here's your reading/comprehension problem showing up again
That's not what I think
That was an amusing comment by Jeremy Clarkson
Who is white by the way, which means you should value his opinion
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      06-25-2013, 07:45 PM   #207
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Originally Posted by MiddleAgedAl View Post
Really? Senna's fatal accident in Tamburello was caused by his belief in God? Or, Senna was not a good driver? Those are the take-aways many of you got from all this ? Seriously? Wow.

"He thinks he can't kill himself because he believes in God. ... I think that's very dangerous -- for the other drivers."
--Alain Prost

That quote was made by Alain long before that fateful weekend in Imola even began. He was referring to the numerous other instances over the years where Senna intentionally drove into other drivers at speed to influence the outcome in a certain way, regardless of the physical risks it imposed (not only to himself, but others).

Say what you want about Alain; but some things are irrefutable: the man was no dummy and could certainly drive a racecar, and he had a deeper, more accurate insight into Senna himself than any of us on this board enjoy. How many of you spent as much time in his presence as Alain did?

Alain himself has said that Senna had brilliant raw talent, and I'd not dispute that. Neither will many other F1 pilots; no news there. Bringing up surveys about who is the best all-time does nothing to address the point. Certainly lap 1 of Donington '93 was among the greatest single laps ever executed by anyone, anywhere. Still doesnt change the fact that his faith influenced his behaviour in dangerous ways.

If my posts so far tell anyone that I believe that the Tamburello crash was solely due to his faith (and steering column modifications and tire pressure issues didnt play into it), then you might as well block all my future posts; as it would pointless and futile for you to continue to try and comprehend anything else I write.
Al, come on. These are your opinions, they are not fact. Surely you are not testifying that you have such a great understanding of Prost that you knew exactly what the motivation and thoughts were behind all of his comments... are you? I mean if none of us can attest to what Senna meant by his comments about faith because we didn't spend anytime with him, you must have spent immense amounts of time with Alain to know his thought and communication process, right? Lets not forget that F1 in that era was EXTREMELY political. I wouldn't be surprised if every comment made to the media was politically driven. I also believe that while i didn't spend time with Senna; by studying the same bible and teachings that he did, i do understand his comments about God and faith more than you do.

When you used Senna's aggressive driving style in a sport where the guy who drives the fastest wins as an example of people with faith taking more risks than the next guy; people are going to think you're a little batty.

Honestly your whole theory about people of faith acting a fool because they believe God has a plan is a bit silly and when you add in the fact that you think your life may be in danger because of it makes you seem, well wacky. Think of how you feel about people needing guns to fend of the government. That's the feeling most of us have towards that theory of yours.


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This post is too funny..also love the Freudian slip there

whiteness = witness

Actually it's my mac doing the same auto correct as my iphone... lol

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Originally Posted by MiddleAgedAl View Post
Some will do the right thing just because it's the right thing to do. Others will only reluctantly do it when you remove other choices and force them.

Certainly people are not perfect by nature. If given a choice to do right or wrong, all of us, from time to time, will choose the wrong/easy path, for any number of reasons which seem justified at the time.

Taking away a choice will reduce alternatives, and help to force people do the right thing, no matter how unpleasant it will seem at the time. Later on in life, they will enjoy the dividends of having learned to do that.

Clearly, societal constructs such as organized religion have some good elements, but they also have bad elements. Perpetuating the elements that create more options for people to lay blame elsewhere is not a good thing.

If taking more responsibility for your actions is a Christian value, then I'd expect that a preacher should stop and gently correct those who indiscriminately overuse the "it was God's plan" card. It's tough love, but in the long run, wouldnt that help the affected person, and society overall? (I mean do so in a supportive way, to help the person get pointed back in the right direction, not a harsh punitive way.)

Has anyone ever seen that happen ?

Maybe the damage it would inflict to the overall narrative is deemed to be too great, so they can't risk doing so
?
For a non christian guy you seem to know alot about what is preached about in churches across the country. Where are you getting this garbage? I hear more than a hand full of those accountability sermons every year.

My church alone has classes, seminars, men's bible studies and women's bible studies that solely focus on accountability, teaching your children to be accountable, how to create a budget so you can live within your means, and on and on and on. Every christian i know who actively attends church (not the christmas and easter christians) is goal orientated and plans on being self sufficient in reaching those goals. That doesn't mean they won't prey for assistance and guidance. And that doesn't mean that they won't say that must have been part of God's plan when they fail. But that doesn't mean they won't pick themselves up off the ground, dust themselves off and try again while learning their lessons of failure.

Seriously, where do you get this notion? How many sermons have you listened to that you can actually ask if anyone has seen that happen?

I'm hear to tell you that i have.
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      06-25-2013, 08:03 PM   #208
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See
Here's your reading/comprehension problem showing up again
That's not what I think
That was an amusing comment by Jeremy Clarkson
Who is white by the way, which means you should value his opinion
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      06-25-2013, 08:23 PM   #209
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My church alone has classes, seminars, men's bible studies and women's bible studies that solely focus on accountability, teaching your children to be accountable, how to create a budget so you can live within your means, and on and on and on. Every christian i know who actively attends church (not the christmas and easter christians) is goal orientated and plans on being self sufficient in reaching those goals. That doesn't mean they won't prey for assistance and guidance. And that doesn't mean that they won't say that must have been part of God's plan when they fail. But that doesn't mean they won't pick themselves up off the ground, dust themselves off and try again while learning their lessons of failure.
i dunno if my background is of any use, but I grew up going to church every week but stopped during college. my big confusion about Christianity is that god is suppose to be omniscient. his plan is absolute and can't be foiled. a quick example that comes to mind is Jonah. if that's the case, then whatever direction we choose, we'll end up fulfilling god's plan?

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      06-25-2013, 10:56 PM   #210
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Well said.
I share similar beliefs. I believe in science, yet there is something 'else' that exists..
'Perfect truth' can only be something to strive for, lest knowing it contradicts the essence of being human, which is imperfection..? If only I could believe my own crap.
With that said, why can't we all simply believe in aliens? Its definitely more logical than a god with higher powers. Aliens could have easily been here thousands of years ago and started changing our ways. Seeing how stupid and naive we were back then (I personally still am) and how technologically retarded, it'd be quite easy to embed such beliefs to our society. My something 'else' are aliens with higher intelligence, more advanced technologies, and can adapt to a much larger range of environments.
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      06-25-2013, 11:58 PM   #211
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Originally Posted by Mr Tonka View Post

My church alone has classes, seminars, men's bible studies and women's bible studies that solely focus on accountability, teaching your children to be accountable, how to create a budget so you can live within your means, and on and on and on. Every christian i know who actively attends church (not the christmas and easter christians) is goal orientated and plans on being self sufficient in reaching those goals. That doesn't mean they won't prey for assistance and guidance. And that doesn't mean that they won't say that must have been part of God's plan when they fail. But that doesn't mean they won't pick themselves up off the ground, dust themselves off and try again while learning their lessons of failure.
if my background is of any use, I grew up going to church every week but stopped during college. my big confusion about Christianity is that god is suppose to be omniscient. his plan is absolute and can't be foiled. a quick example that comes to mind is Jonah. if that's the case, then whatever direction we choose, we'll end up fulfilling god's plan?

You can certainly opt out of God's plan - that's your choice. But it doesn't mean His plan won't happen. Read the book of Esther (and chapter 4).
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      06-26-2013, 12:54 AM   #212
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You can certainly opt out of God's plan - that's your choice. But it doesn't mean His plan won't happen. Read the book of Esther (and chapter 4).
exactly. gods plan becomes fulfilled even if i choose to opt out. does my choice even matter then? i mean he'd already know my choice before i decide.
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      06-26-2013, 05:34 AM   #213
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With that said, why can't we all simply believe in aliens? Its definitely more logical than a god with higher powers. Aliens could have easily been here thousands of years ago and started changing our ways. Seeing how stupid and naive we were back then (I personally still am) and how technologically retarded, it'd be quite easy to embed such beliefs to our society. My something 'else' are aliens with higher intelligence, more advanced technologies, and can adapt to a much larger range of environments.
The problem with aliens is that is short-circuits certain logical requirements of existence.
If they were so advanced/smart they can appear/dissapear at will, what use do they have with us? Why would they even bother with us?
Now if you view advanced aliens as we view a bug on a plant, we can observe it's existence but we don't neccesarily interfer with it unless we have a reason or inadvertently..
The problem arises when we consider sentience - that is, that we are alive thinking pondering beings, which a bug is not -it's only purpose we can see so far is to use the plant biomass energy to fly around and do its bug-life things (ie. swap entropy for 'order', a philosophic interpretation of science, can expand more if you want to know)
So the bug eats plants, move reproduces, does it bug 'job'.. which as far as we know does not include mental thought or preponderance.
What do we do? Ok, besides bodily functions, and working to feed our 'body'. what is the higher order conciousness -or our brain- for?
Essential what gives us ascendency over other living creatures? our brain, the mental thought function..
Besides being used to improve out material lives, when that need is met, what else do we do? We ponder - what on earth are we doing here?
What function does this fulfill? It relieves existential angst. Or that things that still gnaws at you when you have every physical, emotional need met.
(The so-called holy grail .. at least what I call it)

So what does this have to do with aliens?
See if they existed, necessarily as higher beings to be aware of us but not necessarily the other way around, then they would also have to have a higher level of spiritual developement, placing them closer to god, THEY would know what it is all about more than we do.
Man would be forced off his pedestal .. we are not the closest being to god.
Why does this matter?
i dunno, or I can't explain it at this moment.. but I think it is a logical necessity that those who can consider God must also be closest to him - which does not (logically) allow for a being higher than man but lower than God to exist ..

Don't know if this makes sense to you, it is not a complete explanation, however just my thoughts at the moment on it.
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      06-26-2013, 06:23 AM   #214
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^Actually I am not so sure. Scratch it ..
Still too many things I haven't considered.
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      06-26-2013, 06:38 AM   #215
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You guys are making this way too hard.

We humans "know" some very few, small things through observation of our world (science?).

We don't "know" most things but to deal with them we are happy to assign some reason to the mess--call it faith. It's internal and not necessarily rational or provable but it works for most of us.

Religion is man-made and is therefore, subject to the craziness and irrationality attendant in all of us. But it provides a way to get together, puts some "rules" on the table we can sign up for. And religion codifies (for good or bad) how we deal with each other.

It may be flawed but, in deference to Woody Allen--"we need the eggs".

Anyone that thinks we understand anything of substance about the nature of our universe or will ever be able to explain it on our own is probably voicing more of a wish than fact.
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      06-26-2013, 10:35 AM   #216
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You guys are making this way too hard.

We humans "know" some very few, small things through observation of our world (science?).

We don't "know" most things but to deal with them we are happy to assign some reason to the mess--call it faith. It's internal and not necessarily rational or provable but it works for most of us.

Religion is man-made and is therefore, subject to the craziness and irrationality attendant in all of us. But it provides a way to get together, puts some "rules" on the table we can sign up for. And religion codifies (for good or bad) how we deal with each other.

It may be flawed but, in deference to Woody Allen--"we need the eggs".

Anyone that thinks we understand anything of substance about the nature of our universe or will ever be able to explain it on our own is probably voicing more of a wish than fact.

I need to stop striving.
And just enjoy the egg.
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      06-26-2013, 10:39 AM   #217
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Just watch your cholesterol.. God sprinkles that shit around.
I haven't had egg in ages .. damn my mom hates me.
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      06-26-2013, 12:36 PM   #218
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We humans "know" some very few, small things through observation of our world (science?).
I immediately thought of this after reading this line haha
http://www.buzzfeed.com/erinchack/wh...with-the-ocean
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      06-26-2013, 12:53 PM   #219
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Al, come on. These are your opinions, they are not fact.
Calm down, Joe. For someone who claims that "Even if you do perpetrate your opinions as fact, it's still your right of free speech and doesn't affect mine." (post 159 of this very thread), you sure seem to have gotten your knickers in a knot. No need to get all hyper sensitive and call people wacky, or batty, just because they disagree with you.

I think the wording of Alain's quote that I included is about as un-ambiguous and straightforward as it gets. Compared to a lot of quotes by a lot of drivers, I'm not sure how else one could interpret what he was saying. Dont think you need to have met him for that.

Unlike many quotes from Senna, including the time when he clinched his first title in '88, then proudly proclaimed to worlds media that he "saw God". Really, WTF does that mean? There any many ways to interpret that, you probably couldnt get a dozen priests to agree on exactly what he meant.

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When you used Senna's aggressive driving style in a sport where the guy who drives the fastest wins as an example of people with faith taking more risks than the next guy; people are going to think you're a little batty.
Mansell was also famous for a very aggressive style (hence his nickname at Ferrari "Il Leone".) He did many things that pissed off other drivers, but never the sort of intentional kamikaze moves that he knew would take himself out (and possibly physically injure) as well as his target. Trading paint with open wheel cars is a recipe for disaster in any context. Just ask Dan wheldon's widow.

Lots of drivers have taken others out over the years, and sometimes themselves too, but the last bit is usually unintentional. Even if it's a dodgy move, a drivers confidence makes them think they can get away with it. They try and come out clean. Senna and Schumi are the only ones I can recall who did moves that they surely knew would put them at risk just as bad as their target. (ie: they way they drove into people, there's no way they had an expectation of having a working car after that).


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Honestly your whole theory about people of faith acting a fool because they believe God has a plan is a bit silly and when you add in the fact that you think your life may be in danger because of it makes you seem, well wacky. Think of how you feel about people needing guns to fend of the government. That's the feeling most of us have towards that theory of yours.
The University of Maryland has a course on the Origins of the Bible. One of the relevant documents on their website is a cataloged list of over 700 inconsistencies and contradictions in the bible. http://www.cs.umd.edu/~mvz/bible/bib...sistencies.pdf

If that document is supposed to describe how a good Christian is supposed to behave, and what he's supposed to believe, then what parts are you supposed to take, and what parts are you supposed to discard? Certainly can't take it as a whole with that number of contradictions in it.

Those who choose to live their life by such a document think it's OK to call others "wacky"?!? Really?
Pot, I'd like to introduce you to Kettle. Let's just say I wont lose any sleep if people who believe there is an invisible man in sky, think that I'm wacky.

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For a non christian guy you seem to know alot about what is preached about in churches across the country. Where are you getting this garbage? I hear more than a hand full of those accountability sermons every year.

Seriously, where do you get this notion? How many sermons have you listened to that you can actually ask if anyone has seen that happen?
Actually, no I don't know a lot, that's why I'm asking the question. That's what questions are for.

I can count on the fingers of both hands the number of formal sermons I've sat thru. That fact that I havent got the firsthand knowledge makes it more sensible that I would ask the question. You seem to have the logic backwards. If I had listened to a lot of sermons, I wouldnt need to ask the question now, would I ?

What I do know, is that I have seen firsthand people using the "Gods plan" card a lot, often in the presence of others who are self-described Christians. This whole "holding each other accountable" theory described by bbbbmw; I've NEVER seen that actually happen in practice, not in front of me anyways. Thats why I'm asking.
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      06-26-2013, 01:14 PM   #220
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Originally Posted by OldArmy View Post
We don't "know" most things but to deal with them we are happy to assign some reason to the mess--call it faith. It's internal and not necessarily rational or provable but it works for most of us.

Religion is man-made and is therefore, subject to the craziness and irrationality attendant in all of us. But it provides a way to get together, puts some "rules" on the table we can sign up for. And religion codifies (for good or bad) how we deal with each other.

It may be flawed but, in deference to Woody Allen--"we need the eggs".

Anyone that thinks we understand anything of substance about the nature of our universe or will ever be able to explain it on our own is probably voicing more of a wish than fact.
I get that, and I get the desire to assign order and reason to the chaos, but I dont get is how people can derive comfort from something when the explanation itself is riddled with so many problems, inconsistencies and contradictions? How is that better than simply saying, There's a lot of stuff we can't explain yet? We've come a long way from the time when the bible was written and most people then didnt understand where the sun went at night, (or were sent to prison for heresy when they suggested the accurate answer).

Believe it or not, I'm not trying to provoke, that's a genuine question. How is it better to say "here's the explanation", when that explanation leaves more questions than it answers, or requires one to swallow an elaborate backstory that really leaves the waters of logic more muddy than they were when it started?
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