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      06-15-2013, 03:19 PM   #1
dmw16
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$2000 for a track upgrade

So I'm torn between my next track upgrade. Currently my car has camber plates, bilstein hd shocks, eibach springs, and a stoptech st40 bbk on the front.

Currently I run 19" zcp wheels with pilot super sport tires.

So now I'm torn between TC Kline S/A coils or Apex wheels and track tires (likely toyo ra1's or nitto nt01's).

What would you guys suggest as a next move keeping in mind it will probably be a year before the other item would be in the budget?

Note this is for an E46 M3 but I figure the principal still applies.
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      06-15-2013, 03:29 PM   #2
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You need to consider that the tires are a consumable, where the suspension will last for (almost) the life of the car.

If you go for light R-comps like the RA1 or NT01 you are suggesting, I would recommend the NT01. Apparently, the two tires use the same rubber compound, but the NT01 are built to deal with heavier cars with a stiffer structure and bigger thread blocks.

I have a mantra to keep the car as stock as possible. The reason I switched to R-comps is mostly for longevity. The PSS would simply become greasy and just melt away in 3 to 4 track days, where my NT01 last between 10 and 12 track days.
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      06-15-2013, 03:37 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3
You need to consider that the tires are a consumable, where the suspension will last for (almost) the life of the car.

If you go for light R-comps like the RA1 or NT01 you are suggesting, I would recommend the NT01. Apparently, the two tires use the same rubber compound, but the NT01 are built to deal with heavier cars with a stiffer structure and bigger thread blocks.

I have a mantra to keep the car as stock as possible. The reason I switched to R-comps is mostly for longevity. The PSS would simply become greasy and just melt away in 3 to 4 track days, where my NT01 last between 10 and 12 track days.
I would prefer to keep the car close to stock. The tires would save me money on tires and such which is great.

Some people have suggested that tires like the NT01 is too sticky for stock (or in my case near-stock) suspension. Not sure how much of a concern that is.
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      06-15-2013, 06:07 PM   #4
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Dont use PSS tires. I almost destroyed them in one day at thunderbolt,NJ. Side walls are too soft and they overheat in 10-15 minutes
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      06-15-2013, 06:36 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Groundpilot View Post
Dont use PSS tires. I almost destroyed them in one day at thunderbolt,NJ. Side walls are too soft and they overheat in 10-15 minutes
I'm not going that fast just yet I guess

The PSS tires would become my wets.
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      06-15-2013, 08:01 PM   #6
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How about coils and NT-05's?

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Let me get this straight... You are swapping out parts designed by some of the top engineers in the world because some guys sponsored by a company told you it's "better??" But when you ask the same guy about tracking, "oh no, I have a kid now" or "I just detailed my car." or "i just got new tires."
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      06-15-2013, 08:17 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by aus
How about coils and NT-05's?

.
Which coils are inexpensive enough to stay near my budget?

Apex 17" wheels: $1150 shipped
Tires: ~$850 shipped

The NT05's don't really save enough to get me a set of TCK SA's are $1800.
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      06-15-2013, 09:01 PM   #8
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What is your car not doing well - that your skill set is ready for it to do?
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      06-15-2013, 09:06 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Estoril Blue
What is your car not doing well - that your skill set is ready for it to do?
My biggest concern is chewing thru street tires. The car is great otherwise. I'm progressing a little. Got moved up at my last event and checked off solo. So I'm happy with the car.

I'd mostly like to just keep my street tires together and get smaller wheels with cheaper tires.

So I guess I answered my own question. No?
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      06-15-2013, 10:38 PM   #10
arter
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Another suggestion, switch to AD08's as your combo DD and track tires on the stock rims. The AD08's will handle the track use without melting far better than the PSS's.

PSS's are better wet and softer DD tires than the AD08's....

I also like the NT-01's, but another season on non- R compounds would help you learn the car's handling....
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      06-15-2013, 10:59 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arter
Another suggestion, switch to AD08's as your combo DD and track tires on the stock rims. The AD08's will handle the track use without melting far better than the PSS's.

PSS's are better wet and softer DD tires than the AD08's....

I also like the NT-01's, but another season on non- R compounds would help you learn the car's handling....
That's not a bad thought. I will check those out.

The AD08's are pricey tires. The real attraction of track wheels at this point are cheaper tires.

Maybe wrapping wheels in RS3's or something might work?

Lots to consider...
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      06-16-2013, 07:13 AM   #12
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I would go with TCK DA and get the car dialed in on street tires and really get a handle on the car with street tires before moving onto race tires.

I've seen a lot of people make the just to race tires too fast and then the mistakes just get bigger.
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      06-16-2013, 08:53 AM   #13
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The AD08 is a very good option. In terms of grip, they fit right in between the PSS and NT01. Another good option is the NT05, from what I was told by track buddies, it is similar in performance to the AD08 and has very good longevity.

IMO, as others have stated, the PSS is a fantastic wet track tire. But it simply destroyes itself on a dry track.

With the increased camber provided by your plates, the stock suspension should be able to handle the additional grip of better tires.

Last edited by CanAutM3; 06-16-2013 at 11:37 AM.
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      06-16-2013, 11:32 AM   #14
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If you want to bump up your track experience and performance, get wheels and tires. You will never want to go back to tracking on street tires. The added benefit is that your OEM wheels don't get covered in clag and you'll get more proper life out of the PSSs.
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      06-16-2013, 03:27 PM   #15
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Or whatever, be boring and buy good tires that won't melt on track, your choice
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      06-16-2013, 03:43 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richbot


Or whatever, be boring and buy good tires that won't melt on track, your choice
Insert Fast n Furious quote or reference here
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      06-17-2013, 02:36 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by llis View Post
If you want to bump up your track experience and performance, get wheels and tires. You will never want to go back to tracking on street tires. The added benefit is that your OEM wheels don't get covered in clag and you'll get more proper life out of the PSSs.
+1

The only things between you and the road are your tires.

If you are looking for $ per unit of performance, tires/wheels are your best bet.

I don't know your driving experience, but be sure that you are ready for them. Many drivers jump too quickly to r compounds, which mask bad driving habits because there is so much grip. And when the driver finally has a oh shit moment, he/she is probably going way to fast to react in time to, say, an oversteer.

It is fine to run r comps with stock suspension, but obviously you won't be bringing out the full potential of the tires as a purposely built coil over system would do.
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      06-17-2013, 07:55 AM   #18
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Thanks for the input everyone. Great stuff as always.

I think wheels are the clear choice. I'll probably go with the NT01 and 17" apex wheels.
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      06-17-2013, 11:28 AM   #19
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I suggest wheels/tires. I think you'll notice a much bigger difference than with coilovers.
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      06-17-2013, 12:29 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard@M-World View Post

I don't know your driving experience, but be sure that you are ready for them. Many drivers jump too quickly to r compounds, which mask bad driving habits because there is so much grip. And when the driver finally has a oh shit moment, he/she is probably going way to fast to react in time to, say, an oversteer.
This might be too hard to answer, but how does one know they are ready for r-comps? I have 5 days under my belt and I know I'm not the fastest guy out there. But I've made it to the point of being moved into the faster run group and have been checked out to drive solo. My instructors have been complimentary of my driving and commented that I feel what the car is doing well.

Again, not trying to say I'm great or even good. I've got miles and miles and hours and hours to log before I would suppose to claim even the title of good.

I think either way the wheels are the right call, but it's probably more a matter of whether I wrap them in NT01's or Hankook RS-3's.

My inclination is to give the NT01's a try, but I'm always open to input.
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      06-17-2013, 12:48 PM   #21
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tires

its also a lot cheaper to just run extreme summers like rs3, re11, or ad08 on stock wheels. these tires are a big jump from standard ps2 or pss. I would really recommend trying this before deciding that you need new wheels and tires.

that's what I am doing on my car, and it is the best of both worlds for HPDE......for now haha.
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      06-17-2013, 01:05 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KennyPowers View Post
tires

its also a lot cheaper to just run extreme summers like rs3, re11, or ad08 on stock wheels. these tires are a big jump from standard ps2 or pss. I would really recommend trying this before deciding that you need new wheels and tires.

that's what I am doing on my car, and it is the best of both worlds for HPDE......for now haha.
It's actually not a whole lot more expensive for a second set of wheels.

Since I have the E46 ZCP wheels my tire size options are 225/255 or 235/265. Neither of which have a lot of great tire options. If I go with the AD08's I will spend $1250 on the tires.

A set of 17x9.5 APEX ARC-8's are $1200 shipped and NT01's are $750 a set. So I save $500 per set of tires so the wheels are paid for in 3 sets of tires. Not to mention the added benefit of having "wet" tires (my PSS's) and keeping my OEM wheels a little nicer. And the reduction in unsprung weight.

If the ARC-8's weren't such a great price and/or I had more tires to pick from I'd be inclined to agree. But the lack of tire selection coupled with the much higher prices makes the wheels worth it to me.
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