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      09-20-2007, 08:47 AM   #1
Just_me
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Exclamation Sportauto: new ///M3 vs CLK63 AMG Black Series

laptimes Hockenheim
M3:1.14,3 min
CLK63 BS: 1.13,8 min


M3
0-100km/h: 4.8s
80-120km/h: 7.2(6.)
Max: 280km/h(M Driver Package option code 07ME)


CLK63Black
0-100km/h: 4.5s
80-120km/h: 8.9s(7. speed of autobox)
Max: 300km/h


M3 tires-Michelin Pilot Cup
CLK63Black-Pirelli P Zero Corsa


Source: Sportauto



0-200 kph: 15.7s - 14.6s
18m slalom: 69.2 kph - 67.7 kph
brake distance (100kph-0): 34.3m - 36.4m
brake distance (200kph-0): 133.9m - 143m
(M3 had race pads)
Fuel Consumption: 16.3l - 18.4l

Last edited by Just_me; 09-20-2007 at 12:08 PM.
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      09-20-2007, 08:49 AM   #2
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Not too shabby
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      09-20-2007, 08:53 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Just_me View Post
laptimes Hockenheim
M3:1.14,3 min
CLK63 BS 1.13,8 min


M3
0-100km/h: 4.8s
80-120km/h: 7.2(6.)
Max: 280km/h(M Driver Package option code 07ME)


CLK63Black
0-100km/h: 4.5s
80-120km/h: 8.9s(7. speed of autobox)
Max: 300km/h


M3 tires-Michelin Pilot Cup
CLK63Black-Pirelli P Zero Corsa


Source: Sportauto
Given the accelleration numbers, it is surprising the CLK posted the faster Hockenheim time. I'm actually somewhat disappointed, considering the M was equipped with the 07Me package.
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      09-20-2007, 09:00 AM   #4
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Im impressed by the M3. 507hp vs 420hp. the M3 did well. Bring on the M3 CSL

I bet the M3 offer better comfort than a B.S
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      09-20-2007, 09:15 AM   #5
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Ok, I've gathered some data from fastestlaps.com (great site). Here are some comparisons:

R8: 1:12.7 UHP tires P
996 GT3: 1:13.2
E46 CSL: 1:13.5 UHP tires M
CLK 63 Black: 1:13.8 UHP tires P
E92 M3: 1:14.3 (M Driver's Package) UHP tires M
997S: 1:14.3
M6: 1:14.4 UHP tires P
996 Turbo: 1:14.6
360 Modena: 1:15.1
Lotus Exige 240R: 1:15.4
RS4: 1:15.4 UHP tires P
Cayman S: 15.5
e46 m3: 1:16.3
M5: 1:16.5
997: 1:16.9

UHP= Ultra High Performance
P=Pirelli - M=Michelin



VERY GOOD results when placed into perspective!

See http://www.fastestlaps.com/track7.html
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      09-20-2007, 09:54 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ILC32 View Post
Ok, I've gathered some data from fastestlaps.com (great site). Here are some comparisons:

R8: 1:12.7
996 GT3: 1:13.2
E46 CSL: 1:13.5
CLK 63 Black: 1:13.8
E92 M3: 1:14.3 (M Driver's Package)
997S: 1:14.3
M6: 1:14.4
996 Turbo: 1:14.6
360 Modena: 1:15.1
Lotus Exige 240R: 1:15.4
RS4: 1:15.4
Cayman S: 15.5
e46 m3: 1:16.3
M5: 1:16.5
997: 1:16.9

VERY GOOD results when placed into perspective!

See http://www.fastestlaps.com/track7.html
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      09-20-2007, 10:04 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ILC32 View Post
Ok, I've gathered some data from fastestlaps.com (great site). Here are some comparisons:

R8: 1:12.7
996 GT3: 1:13.2
E46 CSL: 1:13.5
CLK 63 Black: 1:13.8
E92 M3: 1:14.3 (M Driver's Package)
997S: 1:14.3
M6: 1:14.4
996 Turbo: 1:14.6
360 Modena: 1:15.1
Lotus Exige 240R: 1:15.4
RS4: 1:15.4
Cayman S: 15.5
e46 m3: 1:16.3
M5: 1:16.5
997: 1:16.9

VERY GOOD results when placed into perspective!

See http://www.fastestlaps.com/track7.html
I highly doubt the 997S nor the R8 had cup tires. Given the M3 had cup tires, the M3 had an unfair advantage, which only proves it really can't run with the 997S and especially R8 on this type of track. BMW needs to quit providing auto mags with M3s sporting cup tires. It proves nothing. It goes to show how fast a well balanced mid engine design like the R8 can carve up a track. Even the vastly underpowered Cayman S without an LSD can run with the RS4 and whip an LSD equipped M5 and 997. I want to see how fast the M3 can run Hockenheim without cup tires.
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      09-20-2007, 10:44 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ruff View Post
I highly doubt the 997S nor the R8 had cup tires. Given the M3 had cup tires, the M3 had an unfair advantage, which only proves it really can't run with the 997S and especially R8 on this type of track. BMW needs to quit providing auto mags with M3s sporting cup tires. It proves nothing. It goes to show how fast a well balanced mid engine design like the R8 can carve up a track. Even the vastly underpowered Cayman S without an LSD can run with the RS4 and whip an LSD equipped M5 and 997. I want to see how fast the M3 can run Hockenheim without cup tires.
Exactly!
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      09-20-2007, 10:45 AM   #9
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What were the 0-200 km/h times?
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      09-20-2007, 11:01 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ruff View Post
I highly doubt the 997S nor the R8 had cup tires. Given the M3 had cup tires, the M3 had an unfair advantage, which only proves it really can't run with the 997S and especially R8 on this type of track. BMW needs to quit providing auto mags with M3s sporting cup tires. It proves nothing. It goes to show how fast a well balanced mid engine design like the R8 can carve up a track. Even the vastly underpowered Cayman S without an LSD can run with the RS4 and whip an LSD equipped M5 and 997. I want to see how fast the M3 can run Hockenheim without cup tires.

It is important in my opinion to wait for more details don't you think?
is it fair in your opinion to compare the top of the top 507 hp MB Black Series with the 420 hp of the m3?
wait for more details...later we will decide what is fair and what not..
Regards
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      09-20-2007, 11:03 AM   #11
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That's not bad at all... considering the M3 isn't a track special like the CLK63 BS and quite massively down on power. The forthcoming CSL should even things out and quite possibly beat the CLK63 BS under the same condition... I can't help but think "BS" is short for "Bull S**t" here
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      09-20-2007, 11:06 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ILC32 View Post
Given the accelleration numbers, it is surprising the CLK posted the faster Hockenheim time. I'm actually somewhat disappointed, considering the M was equipped with the 07Me package.
So the first numbers are arriving :

who is able to tell which tires are better between the Michelin Cup and the Pirelli P Zero Corsa ?really better??
because for what I know for Pirelli Zero Corsa:
"The P Zero Corsa is Pirelli's DOT-legal Competition tire primarily developed for use on high performance cars at drivers' schools and lapping days conducted on race tracks. The P Zero Corsa incorporates Pirelli's racing experience to enhance driving satisfaction at the limits of performance."

I would add that the new Ferrari 430 Scuderia, just shown at Frankfurt and the new Porsche GT2 have these Pirelli tires...So I am not sure if it is unfair for the BMW,to test the Black Series (507p) with these tires and the less powered M3 with the Michelin Cup.
Regards

Last edited by savage.ulm1; 09-20-2007 at 11:23 AM.
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      09-20-2007, 11:14 AM   #13
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Hope you don't mind, ILC32. Added performance tires information:

R8: 1:12.7 UHP tires P
996 GT3: 1:13.2
E46 CSL: 1:13.5 UHP tires M
CLK 63 Black: 1:13.8 UHP tires P
E92 M3: 1:14.3 (M Driver's Package) UHP tires M
997S: 1:14.3
M6: 1:14.4 UHP tires P
996 Turbo: 1:14.6
360 Modena: 1:15.1
Lotus Exige 240R: 1:15.4
RS4: 1:15.4 UHP tires P
Cayman S: 15.5
e46 m3: 1:16.3
M5: 1:16.5
997: 1:16.9

UHP= Ultra High Performance
P=Pirelli - M=Michelin


Best regards, south
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      09-20-2007, 11:15 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ruff View Post
I want to see how fast the M3 can run Hockenheim without cup tires.
and I want to see how fast RS4 is without it semi R-tires around Hockenheim. That is just something we can forget, the carmakers will give sportauto the best setting for their cars.
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      09-20-2007, 11:17 AM   #15
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Best wait and find out exactly what the configuration was. I was under the assumption this was an M option M3 withe Pilot + not cup tires....

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      09-20-2007, 11:22 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ILC32 View Post
996 GT3: 1:13.2
996 Turbo: 1:14.6
With results like that, surely the margin for error in these numbers is very big. Its not impossible the GT3 will be faster than the Turbo on some courses, but this seems very hard to believe. Same day, same driver, I do doubt the numbers will look like this.

Good job to M3 though. CLK black certainly looks fantastic, and performance is good too, but the price is so insane. Surely the profit margins on this car are just ridiculous. They ought to make this the regular CLK63, and price it like the C63 (thereby requiring a price adjustment on all CLKs, yes). Why not? Its as if they do not want to try and make a run at E92/E93 M3 customers. They only want to compete with the E90? I just don't understand it.
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      09-20-2007, 11:26 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by southlight View Post
Hope you don't mind, ILC32. Added performance tires information:

R8: 1:12.7 UHP tires P
996 GT3: 1:13.2
E46 CSL: 1:13.5 UHP tires M
CLK 63 Black: 1:13.8 UHP tires P
E92 M3: 1:14.3 (M Driver's Package) UHP tires M
997S: 1:14.3
M6: 1:14.4 UHP tires P
996 Turbo: 1:14.6
360 Modena: 1:15.1
Lotus Exige 240R: 1:15.4
RS4: 1:15.4 UHP tires P
Cayman S: 15.5
e46 m3: 1:16.3
M5: 1:16.5
997: 1:16.9

UHP= Ultra High Performance
P=Pirelli - M=Michelin


Best regards, south

Good find South...
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      09-20-2007, 11:27 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by southlight View Post
Hope you don't mind, ILC32. Added performance tires information:

R8: 1:12.7 UHP tires P
996 GT3: 1:13.2
E46 CSL: 1:13.5 UHP tires M
CLK 63 Black: 1:13.8 UHP tires P
E92 M3: 1:14.3 (M Driver's Package) UHP tires M
997S: 1:14.3
M6: 1:14.4 UHP tires P
996 Turbo: 1:14.6
360 Modena: 1:15.1
Lotus Exige 240R: 1:15.4
RS4: 1:15.4 UHP tires P
Cayman S: 15.5
e46 m3: 1:16.3
M5: 1:16.5
997: 1:16.9

UHP= Ultra High Performance
P=Pirelli - M=Michelin

Best regards, south
Thanks for adding that information. I wonder if it is complete. I would not be surprised if the 996 GT3 and Exige had UHP tires.
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      09-20-2007, 11:45 AM   #19
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South,
Thanks for the new information.
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      09-20-2007, 11:52 AM   #20
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Good info!

Since the B(ull)S(hit) had competition tires the comparo is totally fair. It us US who are adding all the other results, not Sportauto! Amazing job the M3 chassis and brakes, etc. are doing against the huge hp and torque deficit. Hats off!

Since you can buy the M3 with street legal competition type tires I do think the comparisons are fair. Hopefully and eventually we will have track times and other performance metrics on both comp. tires and regular M.P.S. tires on multuiple circuits. This is when you finally get the big picture.

It is not suprising to me at all the that the M3 was tied or bested by the 997S and the R8 with comp. tires. These three cars are REALLY close in almost all metrics seen thus far. Some tracks will favor the lower weight, some the AWD and others the high revs and high hp of the M3.

By the way. Have I said "wait for M-DCT" enough times?
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      09-20-2007, 11:57 AM   #21
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Quote:
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By the way. Have I said "wait for M-DCT" enough times?
I thought you were Secretary of the IB 6MT club?
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      09-20-2007, 12:02 PM   #22
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Quote:
With results like that, surely the margin for error in these numbers is very big. Its not impossible the GT3 will be faster than the Turbo on some courses, but this seems very hard to believe. Same day, same driver, I do doubt the numbers will look like this.

Good job to M3 though. CLK black certainly looks fantastic, and performance is good too, but the price is so insane. Surely the profit margins on this car are just ridiculous. They ought to make this the regular CLK63, and price it like the C63 (thereby requiring a price adjustment on all CLKs, yes). Why not? Its as if they do not want to try and make a run at E92/E93 M3 customers. They only want to compete with the E90? I just don't understand it.
Huh... Turbo 996 beating the GT3...are you serious?

The GT3 is basically a race car for the street. Especially the 996 version.

The 996TT is not much lighter than the E92 M and less competition prepped than the GT3.

Now the GT2...thats another story all together. A head to head between a 996 GT2 and GT3 would be an awsome comparison!

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