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      05-23-2013, 02:05 PM   #67
AndreyT
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Originally Posted by Nate4641 View Post
What we are doing in Afghanistan is more humanitarian for them. We are also trying to fight the drug trade coming out of the region. An extremely large portion of the heroin in the world comes from Afghanistan. One of our campaigns is trying to get the locals to switch to different crops from poppy. It’s hard because the Taliban are the ones who are collecting the product and paying the people. If they don't grow poppy they risk not having money to eat, or being taken by the Taliban.
That is absolutely false in the most distilled sense of false: as in "the exact opposite of the truth".

CIA originally failed to organize anti-Soviet terrorist movement in Afghanistan in the early-mid 70's, despite repeated attempts when they offered Afghan militants money and weapons in exchange for terrorist attacks on the Soviet borders. These militants proved to be more merchants than soldiers. The conditions on which CIA finally succeeded by around '76-'77 (aka the birth of "Taliban") was actually the promise of direct US support for the Afghan opiate production and distribution. That included 1) CIA (and eventually US Army) providing the transport route for Afghan opiates to reach the US market, and 2) taking steps to subdue the primary "local" competitors in opiate production, namely Colombia.

The amount of money the drug bonzi in US government made and continue to make on opiates production in Afghanistan is the main reason why USA continues to actively support and develop massive opiate production in Afghanistan. You probably heard about US "war on drugs" in Colombia. Now you know what's really behind that "war on drugs".

Last edited by AndreyT; 05-23-2013 at 02:34 PM.
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      05-23-2013, 02:33 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by AndreyT View Post
This relies on the dubious claim that "Soviet expansion in Southeast Asia" was somehow a bad thing. [Etc.]
We'll have to agree to disagree since we're arguing over "what could have happened". However, my response to kmarei was that there was a reasonably-definable threat.

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Originally Posted by AndreyT View Post
False. The above statement only applies to authoritarian regimes, i.e. governments that rely on brute force as their means of exercising control. It does not work with indoctrinating regimes - a completely different and much more sinister model of governments [Etc.]
Seriously? All governments are in some way "authoritarian", and all governments are in some way "indoctrinating". The point of government in the first place is to promote stability among its citizens; how else can you do it without foisting a set of laws on its people and then enforcing those laws with might? If I live in any country with a government, I will necessarily have certain freedoms taken away from me in exchange for stability. Let's take an extreme example of the "freedom" to commit murder). Have I been "indoctrinated" that murder is bad? Probably. But it seems pretty reasonable to me.


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Originally Posted by AndreyT View Post
Firstly, this is, of course, known for a fact to be naive and laughably false. Secondly, you are again trying to make a mistake of mixing indoctrinating regimes and authoritarian regimes. [Etc.]
I was paraphrasing the current status of US law, so prove to me how my statement was "false". Again, I was responding to kmarei's assertion. Nice job seguing into a non-topical diatribe.
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      05-23-2013, 02:41 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by cssnms View Post
Like it or not, the reality is our intelligence community and more importantly that of our allies had credible evidence to suggest that Saddam Hussein was a viable threat to our nation and our allies.
now i don't work for the intelligence community, and i might be going out on a limb here
but wouldnt you think that north korea having nuclear weapons is a teensy weensie bigger threat than saddam hussein maybe having WMDs??

If these supposed threats were an issue with your allies, more of them would have joined your war

look at the number of countries fighting in the first iraq war
vs the second
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      05-23-2013, 02:52 PM   #70
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I can give you another example
because I am always amazed at the utter shock of Americans when they say why do the Arabs/Muslims hate us?
they are against our way of life!

The US until very recently labeled the Muslim Brotherhood as a terrorist organization
then they won the elections in Egypt
Suddenly, the US is dealing with them, and pressuring the IMF to give Egypt a 4.8 billion dollar loan
you know why?
and this shocks me, because I don't know any other example of a country having a foreign policy built around the safety of another country, even if this policy hurts the US

They had to deal with the MB because the primary concern of US foreign policy is the safety and security of Israel.
So the last thing they needed is the second strongest army in the middle east, to fall into the hands of a militant Islamic organization
so they decided to try to befriend the MB, and offer to buy their loyalty.

this is a clear case of the US choosing an act that is very beneficial for Israel
that hurts the US long term.
and I can tell you that most Egyptians I know, and this is the better educated upper middle/upper class are starting to hate the US.
and they all know that the MB would not have come to power/remained in power without the backing of the US.
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      05-23-2013, 03:13 PM   #71
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About 700-900 years ago my ancestors and other Anglo/Frisian/Saxonian/French catholics went on crusades to reconquer Jerusalem from Islamic forces...

That didn't work out very well. That's why we still have this problem, a religion behaving like living in the middle ages in the year 2013, spread all over the world. Like a Trojan Horse.

I blame my ancestors back then for not getting it done properly...

Cheers
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      05-23-2013, 04:10 PM   #72
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Back to the original subject: well, he hardly witnessed all the sufferings by Muslims firsthand:

Adebolajo was an ordinary British schoolboy; born in Lambeth in December 1984, he grew up in Romford...
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      05-23-2013, 04:45 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by schoy View Post
We'll have to agree to disagree since we're arguing over "what could have happened". However, my response to kmarei was that there was a reasonably-definable threat.
No, I don't see any "what could have happened" situation here. One can argue that the US government back couldn't know "what could have happened". But today, with the benefit of hindsight, we have no room left for any "what-could's" anymore. All good we sill have in our world, any sanity and civilization we still have left is the legacy of Soviet Union. And the only shred of hope the human kind has for its own survival relies directly on its success in preserving and expanding that legacy. Today that's something that is finally understood universally and unquestionably. And that is the purpose the entire Civilized World is entirely dedicated to.

Moreover, I take back my words above about US government "not knowing what could have happen". In the post-WWII world they did not have the right to follow that way of thinking. In the post-WWII world the opposition to the Soviet Union of the nature demonstrated by the US regime was immediately and justfully recognized as a grave crime against humanity. And they knew that. While the world recognizes the fact that the post-WWII political course of USA was charted mostly by the Nazi criminal clique, which eventually came to power in USA under the protection of the US regime, the world still believes that the US society is responsible for allowing these criminals to come to power. In the 1940's, 1950's and even in 1960's Americans still had a change to take their country back from the grasp of Fascism. But they didn't.
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      05-23-2013, 06:23 PM   #74
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^ not that I agree with Robin_NL statement, but most all of this is about religion and they all have been fighting one another for thousands of years for any number of reasons. If you add up people killed in the world in the name of some religion's god or gods, Religions account for more deaths than any dictator or natures cause, beside getting old and dying.

We have more people today walking around killing or want to kill people because they think they are defending their religion. After the Boston bombing someone point out the fact that there no way to stop these people so it up to the religious groups to root these people out and turn them over to authority and not allow these people to deface their religion.

I agree 99% of people of any group are okay, but those 99% can tell you who to watch out for. If these groups do not want to be associate with killers and terrorist they need to do something about it themselves.

Personally I am not seeing anyone in the Muslim community doing a thing to stop these kinds of people. Honestly it is no different than the catholic church not doing a thing to lockup the pedophile priest they have walking around molesting children.
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      05-23-2013, 06:57 PM   #75
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educate your kids.... I think these actions is due to a lack of education. people need to learn how to think for themselves
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      05-23-2013, 07:12 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torxist View Post
Kindly read my previous post. I NEVER tried to justify the beheading. How dare you?

It was your disgusting comment that prompted me to respond. Also, interesting how in these war stories, its always the enemy that conducts these heinous acts. Because American soliders never raped, tortured or sodimized anyone. You sir can't be that naive.
Are you actually trying to equate American soldiers with terrorists? Really? Screw you and your self-hate.

And don't even try that "I know the region" crap. There are plenty of us who have walked a lot of that land. You don't own any particular insight. Fourth world, sixth century, poisonous, mysoginist and violent religion.
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      05-23-2013, 07:31 PM   #77
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Thats nice. Keep the hate up, that's exactly what the radicals feed on.

You are lost. Trying to make this about religion.

FYI Muslims are now the majority religion throughout the world. And it wasn't spread through Imperialism like Catholicism. So what does that tell you?
No it's spread like a cancer because you join up and comply or die. Makes it pretty easy to recruit. Of course it's not apples and apples as islam is not really a religion as much as a method of societal control.
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      05-23-2013, 07:56 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by AndreyT View Post
No, I don't see any "what could have happened" situation here. One can argue that the US government back couldn't know "what could have happened". But today, with the benefit of hindsight, we have no room left for any "what-could's" anymore. All good we sill have in our world, any sanity and civilization we still have left is the legacy of Soviet Union. And the only shred of hope the human kind has for its own survival relies directly on its success in preserving and expanding that legacy. Today that's something that is finally understood universally and unquestionably. And that is the purpose the entire Civilized World is entirely dedicated to.
Wha ...?
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      05-23-2013, 08:33 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by OldArmy View Post
No it's spread like a cancer because you join up and comply or die. Makes it pretty easy to recruit. Of course it's not apples and apples as islam is not really a religion as much as a method of societal control.
I could say the same of Christianity and Judaism, and pretty much all the major religions
But that would be an ignorant remark...

So I assume you are not Muslim, and you're not dead
So I guess it's not join up and comply, or die

Whether you like it or not
And no matter how much Fox News you watch
Muslims, Christians, and Jews worship the same god
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      05-23-2013, 08:41 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by Robin_NL View Post
About 700-900 years ago my ancestors and other Anglo/Frisian/Saxonian/French catholics went on crusades to reconquer Jerusalem from Islamic forces...

That didn't work out very well. That's why we still have this problem, a religion behaving like living in the middle ages in the year 2013, spread all over the world. Like a Trojan Horse.

I blame my ancestors back then for not getting it done properly...

Cheers
Robin
In that case I hope you're not drinking coffee, using a tooth brush, went to university, used algebra, or ever been to a hospital
Because those are all Muslim inventions

You're welcome
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      05-23-2013, 08:52 PM   #81
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Damned crazy.
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      05-23-2013, 09:10 PM   #82
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Madeleine Albright saying the killing of 500,000 Iraqi children was worth it. I'm pretty sure some of you on here will get a boner and scream 'Merica Fuk Yea' after watching this.



Here's a bunch of my fellow Marines pissing on dead 'animals' as some of you like to call them. I bet someone on here is thinking "thats war bro ha ha ha". Once again this will give a raging hard on to anyone who has been indoctrinated. I would've taken those Marines and dropped them off in the middle of a Afghani village with no weapons. Disgusting and a total embarrassment for the Marine Corps.



Here is a video outlining ONE of the many ways both the UK and the USA has been meddling in middle eastern affairs. Way before many of you were born.



The biggest problem this country has today IMO is that it has lost it's most prized possession. An educated and informed populous. The few that actually open their eyes and see what is really going on are demonized when they openly criticize the overseas adventurism, interventionism and war mongering. The only thing these wars and drone attacks have done is guarantee a perpetual war.
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      05-23-2013, 09:47 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bx Tpr View Post
Madeleine Albright saying the killing of 500,000 Iraqi children was worth it. I'm pretty sure some of you on here will get a boner and scream 'Merica Fuk Yea' after watching this.



Here's a bunch of my fellow Marines pissing on dead 'animals' as some of you like to call them. I bet someone on here is thinking "thats war bro ha ha ha". Once again this will give a raging hard on to anyone who has been indoctrinated. I would've taken those Marines and dropped them off in the middle of a Afghani village with no weapons. Disgusting and a total embarrassment for the Marine Corps.



Here is a video outlining ONE of the many ways both the UK and the USA has been meddling in middle eastern affairs. Way before many of you were born.



The biggest problem this country has today IMO is that it has lost it's most prized possession. An educated and informed populous. The few that actually open their eyes and see what is really going on are demonized when they openly criticize the overseas adventurism, interventionism and war mongering. The only thing these wars and drone attacks have done is guarantee a perpetual war.
+1
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      05-24-2013, 09:40 AM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Plutonium
In regards to the terrible video of the marines...

There is no excuse, it is inhuman, and casts a dark shadow on the armed forces.

This happens (and this is not an excuse) within every army, in every war, from and in any country. It is horrible and disgraceful. War brings out the worst in people, you have soldiers with 5 tours, dealing with PTSD, and are desensitized.

I served myself and this above statement is not meant as an excuse, there is none. But it is important to realize that the majority of soldiers within the US armed forces, any branch, will not behave like this, and will condemn these actions. It is an offense that will see that particular soldier court marshaled.

I served in Somalia with the first foreign deployment since WWII with the Bundeswehr. As a Gebirgsjaeger I was deployed to ensure the safety of the engineer corps to construct wells.

Alongside with our brother in arms of the US forces we were there on humanitarian mission, backed by a UN mandate, but not as part of any UN blue helmet deployment. On a personal note, I find 'blue helmets' completely useless.

The point of the mission was to help with the terrible hunger crisis, and stop the senseless bloodshed of civilians. There was no political agenda, in fact, Germany took a huge risk (based on our historical guilt) to deploy non-UN armed forces. We were under orders not to engage unless fired upon, with the exception of protecting civilian lives when applicable and authorized.

I tell you right now that this charge made a difference to many women and children. I've seen incredible bravery and compassion by the US armed forces, putting their lives on the line (over and over) to protect civilians. In that very moment there are no politics or hidden agendas, and I think it is very important to realize and remember that.

Fast forward 2 years, Europe (and the world) is watching the genocide of the muslim population in Serbia and Bosnia. The UN did nothing. ALL the muslim countries did nothing, and we were living 3 hours away from daily rape of women and children, mass excisions of muslim boys and men.

Eventually the UN send troops that did (again) absolutely nothing. And by that I mean that they did not even engage when fired upon by Serbian forces, and even left muslim villages to be slaughtered.

All of that changed when General Clarkson deployed American forces, backed by German Tornado bombers to take out Serbian forces. It was the Americans (critiqued at the time by the UN and Europe for taking direct armed action) that stopped the total genocide of the entire muslim population. It was not political, there was no oil, and I think most muslims forgot about that. Probably not the woman and children that were saved within those years.

Not Turkey, Iran, Iraq, or Saudia Arabia could be bothered to help. Turkey reluctantly took in some refugees.

It was US and German special forces (KSK) that captured most serbian war criminals to be prosecuted at the international court in Den Haag.

So next time you go on a tirade and criticizing US foreign policy remember these armed conflicts.

Best,
TP
+1

Unfortunately it will fall of deaf ears in here.
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      05-24-2013, 10:20 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by AndreyT View Post
...All good we sill have in our world, any sanity and civilization we still have left is the legacy of Soviet Union...


Kamrad, ty gonish.
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      05-24-2013, 10:28 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by Team Plutonium View Post
The point of the mission was to help with the terrible hunger crisis, and stop the senseless bloodshed of civilians. There was no political agenda, in fact, Germany took a huge risk (based on our historical guilt) to deploy non-UN armed forces. We were under orders not to engage unless fired upon, with the exception of protecting civilian lives when applicable and authorized.

I tell you right now that this charge made a difference to many women and children. I've seen incredible bravery and compassion by the US armed forces, putting their lives on the line (over and over) to protect civilians. In that very moment there are no politics or hidden agendas, and I think it is very important to realize and remember that.

......

So next time you go on a tirade and criticizing US foreign policy remember these armed conflicts.
I agree with the highlighted sentence 100%
I would say 99% of the US soldiers are like that
and of course, as with anything, you have your fuckups

I didn't know about the details you mentioned about the Serbian-Bosnian war
I was under the impression that the UN backed forces were the ones helping out. Not just the US/Germans

I just wish the US would stop interfering with other countries
they're not particularly good at it, and long term, it is not beneficial for them.

or at least, I wish they have people from these countries on their team to explain the situation on the ground to them
The fact is most Americans, especially in the army, still have that isolationist mentality in them. The whole we are gods gift to earth mentality.
You are a great nation yes, no doubt about it.
and you have accomplished a lot, for the short time of your existence
But you are one of many nations on this planet.
and they are all important, not just the US

and just like no one likes a bully, well this is the way a lot of countries on this planet see the US, especially after the collapse of the USSR.


I have to say, this is probably one of the most intellectually entertaining threads I've had on this forum
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      05-24-2013, 11:46 AM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Plutonium View Post
In regards to the terrible video of the marines...

There is no excuse, it is inhuman, and casts a dark shadow on the armed forces.

This happens (and this is not an excuse) within every army, in every war, from and in any country. It is horrible and disgraceful. War brings out the worst in people, you have soldiers with 5 tours, dealing with PTSD, and are desensitized.

I served myself and this above statement is not meant as an excuse, there is none. But it is important to realize that the majority of soldiers within the US armed forces, any branch, will not behave like this, and will condemn these actions. It is an offense that will see that particular soldier court marshaled.

All of that changed when General Clarkson deployed American forces, backed by German Tornado bombers to take out Serbian forces. It was the Americans (critiqued at the time by the UN and Europe for taking direct armed action) that stopped the total genocide of the entire muslim population. It was not political, there was no oil, and I think most muslims forgot about that. Probably not the woman and children that were saved within those years.


Best,
TP
It's only out of ignorance that someone would post those videos to prove a point. Anyone could easily find videos showing another armed force doing the same or even Muslims walking on or burning the American flag showing a similar amount of disrespect for their culture. The same holds true for the other videos as well. As if there aren't at least 500,000 muslims who thought that those who died on 9/11 was ok.

This bolded part is exactly my point. Criticized at that time (which is probably why they weren't recognized for the good that was done) but it needed to be done. No one else was going to do it. So the US did. This still happens today and the critiques haven't stopped but only gotten worse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kmarei View Post
I agree with the highlighted sentence 100%
I would say 99% of the US soldiers are like that
and of course, as with anything, you have your fuckups

I didn't know about the details you mentioned about the Serbian-Bosnian war
I was under the impression that the UN backed forces were the ones helping out. Not just the US/Germans

I just wish the US would stop interfering with other countries
they're not particularly good at it, and long term, it is not beneficial for them.


or at least, I wish they have people from these countries on their team to explain the situation on the ground to them
The fact is most Americans, especially in the army, still have that isolationist mentality in them. The whole we are gods gift to earth mentality.
You are a great nation yes, no doubt about it.
and you have accomplished a lot, for the short time of your existence
But you are one of many nations on this planet.
and they are all important, not just the US

and just like no one likes a bully, well this is the way a lot of countries on this planet see the US, especially after the collapse of the USSR.


I have to say, this is probably one of the most intellectually entertaining threads I've had on this forum
What makes you think the US isn't good at it? I will agree it's not beneficial in a reputation or monetary way. But i do think it's beneficial to most of the world.

No one likes a bully unless he's sticking up for you. The collapse of the USSR might have been viewed as bullying but it could have very well been what side stepped WWIII or nuclear war. (bad for all) The destabilization of a country with nearly 50,000 nuclear war heads isn't ideal, but those 50,000 war heads are an existing problem. At least the skittish people with their finger on the launch button have removed their finger. We may have issues of weapons being sold off and or stolen, but that's a problem that is much better than nuclear holocaust in my opinion.

I think the bully view might come from the US wanting something in return for help, aid, etc... "Sure we'll help you out but we're going to leave this base right here. Thanks so much." That kind of thing isn't always necessary and i agree that it looks a little Romanesque. Prior to WWII the US wasn't doing this and avoiding wars. After it seems to me that the powers at be decided that if they had been involved in WWII sooner it would have been over sooner. This mentality may have lead to preemptive military moves for political reasons. It certainly lead to enormous amounts of military funding there by creating our extensive armed forces. If you go by history, an Axis (if you will) country should have popped up with opposition to the free world some time 2000. They did, it just wasn't a legit nation that was growing their military and political power in a conventional manner. It was small terrorist groups with big dreams.

Lastly, American military personnel are trained to KONW they are God's give to the battle field. And that's how it should be. Anyone that's been in battle can tell you that it's no place for a timid person who is unsure of themselves.

Many of those other nations are just as proud as US citizens and military. You just don't currently have a problem with their country and consequently don't have a problem with their attitude. Spend some time in Iraq pre war and tell me about their military personnel attitudes.
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      05-24-2013, 11:47 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by smyles View Post
Kamrad, ty gonish.
LOL! What can I say... Americanism of Cerebral Cortex (ACC) is a severe, debilitating condition.
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