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      05-29-2013, 05:31 PM   #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SSRE View Post
you mean everyone lives at redline every time they drive the car? I must be a minority for thinking id like to not have to drop a gear or 3 to accelerate
Either you are taking the sarcasm too far or, you really dont get it. My first comment about transmissions didn't have anything to do with downshifting for passing. It was about torque multiplication and engine speeds.

No one lives at redline.

If you don't want to downshift, that's your business. Do as you please. I wasn't trying to have a conversation about your or my preferences. It was about the technical merits and demerits of high speed engines.

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Originally Posted by SSRE View Post
thats last sentence really solidifies my point..
No it doesn't. You've been talking about technical particulars of different supercharger systems for the last three pages. We've been having an academic discussion. If you want to switch to the previalance of personal preference over technical merit, then that's a totally different argument, altogether.

While I fully believe there is 0 point in increasing low and midrange power, due to traction reasons (under all conditions, except passing on the highway), I don't care to impress that opinion upon anyone else. So, this discussion, at least my contribution, is limited to technical paticulars, suplemented by emprircal info. Understand, you can and should do whatever you want. I'm not telling you to do everything I do. i don't even want you to do everything I do. I'm asking you to explain why more low and midrange power (and therefore, the predicted performance of this PD supercharger system) would be desirable, when the M3 is already traction limited in the first 2 gears. Passing in high gear is the only situation where such additional power is needed. If the conclusion is that the car should, according to driver preference, have more midrange power, then we've reached the precipus of taste and, we're done. If there is other information to glean from this discussion, then let's hear it.
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      05-29-2013, 05:41 PM   #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonjt View Post
I'm asking you to explain why more low and midrange power (and therefore, the predicted performance of this PD supercharger system) would be desirable, when the M3 is already traction limited in the first 2 gears. Passing in high gear is the only situation where such additional power is needed. If the conclusion is that the car should, according to driver preference, have more midrange power, then we've reached the precipus of taste and, we're done. If there is other information to glean from this discussion, then let's hear it.
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      05-29-2013, 05:42 PM   #113
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If this system is "bulletproof" I'll definitely consider it! I loved my old Kennebell blower, and the torque across the entire powerband was SICK!
I did learn, however that forged internals are a MUST with this type of blower because I quickly blew 6-of-8 cylinders with the tune and meth injection. I then built a new engine with forged internals, lowered the compression, and raised the boost, and bingo!
Gawd I miss that thing!
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      05-29-2013, 05:46 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by slipaway37 View Post
......however that forged internals are a MUST with this type of blower because...
This was my first thought, as well. All that extra chamber pressure, combined with the fact that the bearings need special care/maintenance makes me thing the real cost of this kit would be far higher than the ~13k asking price. So much so that I think it might be better to just switch platforms.
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      05-29-2013, 06:27 PM   #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonjt View Post
even want you to do everything I do. I'm asking you to explain why more low and midrange power (and therefore, the predicted performance of this PD supercharger system) would be desirable, when the M3 is already traction limited in the first 2 gears. Passing in high gear is the only situation where such additional power is needed. If the conclusion is that the car should, according to driver preference, have more midrange power, then we've reached the precipus of taste and, we're done. If there is other information to glean from this discussion, then let's hear it.
1. at least you and I agree that noone has the right to say what someone else should do, as its personal preference.

2. as someone that has an N54, you should know how much more fun and useful it is to give it maybe 1/3 throttle in any gear and accelerate, than to have to downshift and rev to the stratosphere

3..why is it traction limited? what improvement have you seen from a N/A M3 smoking tires to a FI one that does as well? both are merely a product of complimenting setups.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonjt View Post
This was my first thought, as well. All that extra chamber pressure, combined with the fact that the bearings need special care/maintenance makes me thing the real cost of this kit would be far higher than the ~13k asking price. So much so that I think it might be better to just switch platforms.

and how exactly does the bearing issue differ at 4k than 84 or 8600 rpms again?
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      05-29-2013, 07:03 PM   #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonjt
Quote:
Originally Posted by slipaway37 View Post
......however that forged internals are a MUST with this type of blower because...
This was my first thought, as well. All that extra chamber pressure, combined with the fact that the bearings need special care/maintenance makes me thing the real cost of this kit would be far higher than the ~13k asking price. So much so that I think it might be better to just switch platforms.
Also my feeling but hopefully Harrop will proove us wrong!
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      05-30-2013, 01:05 AM   #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SSRE View Post
1. at least you and I agree that noone has the right to say what someone else should do, as its personal preference.

2. as someone that has an N54, you should know how much more fun and useful it is to give it maybe 1/3 throttle in any gear and accelerate, than to have to downshift and rev to the stratosphere

3..why is it traction limited? what improvement have you seen from a N/A M3 smoking tires to a FI one that does as well? both are merely a product of complimenting setups.


and how exactly does the bearing issue differ at 4k than 84 or 8600 rpms again?

2. I wouldnt say it's more fun than it is useful. I'd prefer an engine with better top end performance and more aggressive gearing. I like the fact that you can hold first gear until 60 on the M3, and the fact that the S65 doesn't fall on it's face at 5900rpms. IMO, (yeah, I'm getting into that) engines sound better and are more fun when you can hear and feel them. That, again IMO, is better had at 6000rpms than at 3000.


3. Why is it traction limited? Too much torque at the wheels at low vehicle speeds and low gear. I mean, it's super easy to break traction on a bone stock M3. Not quite sure what else you are saying here.


Speaking from the perspective of a design engineer, increases in low end torque will significantly increase the AVERAGE stress and the amplitude of the stress reversals the components see, every revolution. Part of the reason for this change is because driver habits will change. If the car sees a 100 pound-foot increase in torque at ~2k rpms, say, they will surely be tempted to mash the throttle and zip around at much higher rates of acceleration than they normally would if the car retained it's peaky, NA characteristic. Otherwise, forced induction just tends to increase average cylinder pressures, in comparison to an N/A motor of similar peak power. That means, more stress. You see, the work required to move an M3 hard tends to reduce the stress the engine sees, on average, because people are lazy. Forced induction motors tend to be of a heartier design than even the faster N/A motors. From what I know, only the highest output N/A motors have forged internals. Many FI motors do.


The S65 has been pretty reliable, with the addition of forced induction. However, higher mileage (~100k) forced induction S65 owners have made it clear that it's a good idea to replace the crank bearings and the big end rod bearings. In fact, I'd say that bearings are BMW's general weakness....
We don't quite know how long the rings will last but, at the same time, the S65 has not seen nearly the same mileage as, say, the S54 has. This kit may well prove to be a viable, reliable alternative, with significantly higher low to mid range torque (maybe!). But, with the fact that the kit is expensive, it's yet unproven and with the known characteristics of PD air pumps, I'd want to wait to see how the S65 responds to this kit. If I was buying a kit now, I would go straight for an Evolve/ESS/Gintani kit and not look back.

Last edited by Jonjt; 05-30-2013 at 01:25 AM.
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      05-30-2013, 01:06 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by Alex07M3 View Post
Also my feeling but hopefully Harrop will proove us wrong!
Indeed. Always good to have options.
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      05-30-2013, 10:45 AM   #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BuckRodgers View Post
How are they "thrashing it about" without tuning? What you posted is a direct contradiction. Vendors like Harrop, Eaton, Whipple etc build hardware they do not typically do any tuning. The Harrop rep at Bimmerfest clearly stated that they do not have software to make the kit run and they still did not have any guess at boost or power that can be made. Hardware is the easy part, software is the difficult part of these projects. Typically a tuner will figure out the software before they build the hardware unless they are looking to farm software out to a 3rd party.
I figure they must have some rudimentary version of a tune that isn't ready for release. Not a Harrop rep, you want their number pm me and you can ask the Head of the company yourself. That being said I was told they are getting help with the tuning side of things. As for my comment about the kit being on their car, just repeating what I understood from the conversation.
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      05-30-2013, 01:40 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by Canuckles View Post
I figure they must have some rudimentary version of a tune that isn't ready for release. Not a Harrop rep, you want their number pm me and you can ask the Head of the company yourself. That being said I was told they are getting help with the tuning side of things. As for my comment about the kit being on their car, just repeating what I understood from the conversation.
It's very simple really you either have a tune or you do not. If you are out looking for "help" with your software you do not have software. Having a rudimentary tune means you still have no tune. Ask the head of the company for a dyno if you have direct access to him. If they have a tune that allows them to "thrash it about" they have a good enough file to do some basic dyno testing. With no performance data given, no dyno's shown and reports of them looking for help with the software this is usually a sign that they are still not close to having a finished product that can go into long term testing.
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      05-30-2013, 02:26 PM   #121
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Originally Posted by Jonjt View Post
I mean, it's super easy to break traction on a bone stock M3. Not quite sure what else you are saying here.


I really have to disagree with this statement. In certain conditions I agree, but this is a false blanket statement. I used launch control on my supercharged E93 last night in 90* weather here in Scottsdale (elevation ~ 1700) and the stock PSS tires gripped really well and just shot me forward with just a tiny bit of wheelspin.
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      05-30-2013, 03:10 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by SYZ View Post
I really have to disagree with this statement. In certain conditions I agree, but this is a false blanket statement. I used launch control on my supercharged E93 last night in 90* weather here in Scottsdale (elevation ~ 1700) and the stock PSS tires gripped really well and just shot me forward with just a tiny bit of wheelspin.
Eh, your counter example is a rather particular condition, and something that isn't seen all that often. Let me explain.......


When I made my comment, I wasn't thinking about launching. I was thinking about hard driving, particularly out of corners. Sliding the M3 is super easy there. And, that sort of aggressive driving, driving road courses and twisty roads, constitutes a much larger percentage of aggressive driving than launching does.

So, sure, you're right, launch control can really reduce wheel spin but, the M3 was designed to and spends a significantly larger portion of it's time driving near the limit through corners on road courses. Most M3s spend so much less time launching.
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      05-30-2013, 03:13 PM   #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonjt View Post
2. I wouldnt say it's more fun than it is useful. I'd prefer an engine with better top end performance and more aggressive gearing. I like the fact that you can hold first gear until 60 on the M3, and the fact that the S65 doesn't fall on it's face at 5900rpms. IMO, (yeah, I'm getting into that) engines sound better and are more fun when you can hear and feel them. That, again IMO, is better had at 6000rpms than at 3000.


3. Why is it traction limited? Too much torque at the wheels at low vehicle speeds and low gear. I mean, it's super easy to break traction on a bone stock M3. Not quite sure what else you are saying here.


Speaking from the perspective of a design engineer, increases in low end torque will significantly increase the AVERAGE stress and the amplitude of the stress reversals the components see, every revolution. Part of the reason for this change is because driver habits will change. If the car sees a 100 pound-foot increase in torque at ~2k rpms, say, they will surely be tempted to mash the throttle and zip around at much higher rates of acceleration than they normally would if the car retained it's peaky, NA characteristic. Otherwise, forced induction just tends to increase average cylinder pressures, in comparison to an N/A motor of similar peak power. That means, more stress. You see, the work required to move an M3 hard tends to reduce the stress the engine sees, on average, because people are lazy. Forced induction motors tend to be of a heartier design than even the faster N/A motors. From what I know, only the highest output N/A motors have forged internals. Many FI motors do.


The S65 has been pretty reliable, with the addition of forced induction. However, higher mileage (~100k) forced induction S65 owners have made it clear that it's a good idea to replace the crank bearings and the big end rod bearings. In fact, I'd say that bearings are BMW's general weakness....
We don't quite know how long the rings will last but, at the same time, the S65 has not seen nearly the same mileage as, say, the S54 has. This kit may well prove to be a viable, reliable alternative, with significantly higher low to mid range torque (maybe!). But, with the fact that the kit is expensive, it's yet unproven and with the known characteristics of PD air pumps, I'd want to wait to see how the S65 responds to this kit. If I was buying a kit now, I would go straight for an Evolve/ESS/Gintani kit and not look back.
Agreed.

The M3 in stock form isn't happy to begin with on heavy throttle applications at lower RPM, particularly in higher gears. Having X amount of boost hit hard in that area is definitely going to be a bit more strain on the motor. Not to say that it can't be tuned to work, because it can. But nonetheless there are clear differentiating factors between the positive displacement and centri architectures.
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      05-30-2013, 03:21 PM   #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tightie View Post
I've heard some unofficial news about this. We will see what happens in the next coming weeks. Can't wait to see the power being made.
Haha you're all over this. I can see a blower swap for you if this thing is putting down numbers you like. Imagine.....
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      05-30-2013, 03:33 PM   #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Benvo View Post
Agreed.

The M3 in stock form isn't happy to begin with on heavy throttle applications at lower RPM, particularly in higher gears. Having X amount of boost hit hard in that area is definitely going to be a bit more strain on the motor. Not to say that it can't be tuned to work, because it can. But nonetheless there are clear differentiating factors between the positive displacement and centri architectures.
Indeed. Another issue is that high load, low rpm driving is a GREAT way to kill an engine. You add a ton of heat and aren't moving enough gas to get it out. The fact that the N54 sits around 3krpms at highway speeds eliminates this problem but, IIRC, the S65 cruises at a lower RPM. No matter the supercharger, you may need to downshift anyway.
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      05-30-2013, 03:38 PM   #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BuckRodgers View Post
It's very simple really you either have a tune or you do not. If you are out looking for "help" with your software you do not have software. Having a rudimentary tune means you still have no tune. Ask the head of the company for a dyno if you have direct access to him. If they have a tune that allows them to "thrash it about" they have a good enough file to do some basic dyno testing. With no performance data given, no dyno's shown and reports of them looking for help with the software this is usually a sign that they are still not close to having a finished product that can go into long term testing.
Buck, I ran into the guy (owner) and got his card, we chatted over a few drinks, chill out and Pm me and I'll give you his son in laws email, he runs the day to day at Harrop, he would be the definitive authority on the matter. Don't have the energy to argue with you as I travel from hotspot to hotspot in Spain, spare me the inquisition.
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      05-30-2013, 03:41 PM   #127
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All the large displacement high performance V8 or medium displacement high performance turbo V8 cars are traction limited in the lower gears, but for their traction control. Power is modulated with your foot to maintain traction if you want traction control off in the lower gears.

I agree that if you feed torque in slowly, or simply do not have very much of it relative to horsepower, it is less likely you will lose traction. This makes for a very predictable and controllable power curve. Whether this sort of power band is preferable to one with a lower rpm limit and much greater torque is debatable. I like them both. I think the new M5 would be a lot of fun, as will be the new M3, but also enjoy my E90M3.
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      05-31-2013, 12:06 AM   #128
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My take is that if you don't have good "in-house" tuning you are not going to have a reliable kit. This has been amply illustrated by the blown up motors from various vendors in the early days of S65 FI.

...I don't see how you could release a reliable kit by this fall if you don't have dyno #'s to show. It takes time to test, stress test, and see long term effects of a kit on the motor's internals. That's what early adopter guinea pig customers are for
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      05-31-2013, 12:52 AM   #129
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Nicely put


Quote:
Originally Posted by Canuckles View Post
Buck, I ran into the guy (owner) and got his card, we chatted over a few drinks, chill out and Pm me and I'll give you his son in laws email, he runs the day to day at Harrop, he would be the definitive authority on the matter. Don't have the energy to argue with you as I travel from hotspot to hotspot in Spain, spare me the inquisition.
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      05-31-2013, 12:52 AM   #130
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Very credible



Quote:
Originally Posted by bubu View Post
My take is that if you don't have good "in-house" tuning you are not going to have a reliable kit. This has been amply illustrated by the blown up motors from various vendors in the early days of S65 FI.

...I don't see how you could release a reliable kit by this fall if you don't have dyno #'s to show. It takes time to test, stress test, and see long term effects of a kit on the motor's internals. That's what early adopter guinea pig customers are for
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      05-31-2013, 02:20 AM   #131
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** Adminstrators - please respond to previous messages regarding Harrop becoming a sponsor of the forum - we want to contribute as a vendor**

Ok Guys - while we continue work towards production release here is some more info about us and the kit given so much speculation:

We are utilising Eaton TVS technology as used on OE models such as ZR1 Corvette, ZL1 Camaro, CTS-V, Audi 3.0T, Ford GT (Aust) & Lotus etc etc
This is roots style positive displacement technology, not a twin-screw compressor
Harrop currently OE supply Ford in Australia and Lotus Cars UK with supercharger systems
Harrop is a supplier to APR for their Audi 4.2L Stage 3 kit using our 1320 supercharger
The R1740 supercharger is the latest displacement release rotating assembly by Eaton that is destined for an OE platform to be announced later this year
Initial development was based around the 1320 supercharger but deemed too small once the 1740 was known to be available
We have developed electronic boost (by-pass valve) control which is a world first for aftermarket positive displacement supercharger kit design
The supercharger outlet position is located in the centre of the supercharger plenum. This in combination with a large plenum volume and 2 high fin density intercooler cores ensures that air distribution in the manifold is uniform
For calibration we have a development kit on our car in Australia and another in the US, we are working with a number of tuning resources locally and in the US to deliver a production calibration with the ultimate goal of ultimate drivability

We look forward to sharing more insights to the development and performance gains over the coming months... stay tuned..
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      05-31-2013, 02:43 AM   #132
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Price Ideas???
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