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      05-25-2013, 08:04 PM   #89
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Great looking kit. What's the estimated whp and tq ?
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      05-27-2013, 09:38 AM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VCMpower View Post
My gen2 lvl 3 put down 275 wtq at 3000rpm, 300 wtq at 3500 rpm, 375 wtq at 4500 rpm, 400 wtq at 6200 rpm and 410 wtq at 7500 rpm. I am extremely happy with this tq curve and driveability feel on and off the track.
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of course you are, because that is more tq than what the S65 has without boost. Thats my point, your happy now because you have a decent amount. youd be more happy with more of it. i guarantee it. noone has ever said while shopping for a supercharger "gee, I think that will be too much tq, and definitely too soon"
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      05-27-2013, 12:40 PM   #91
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Sorry if I seemed presumptuous. I was simply stating that suitable TQ can be attained. I will re read your comments.





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Originally Posted by SSRE View Post
of course you are, because that is more tq than what the S65 has without boost. Thats my point, your happy now because you have a decent amount. youd be more happy with more of it. i guarantee it. noone has ever said while shopping for a supercharger "gee, I think that will be too much tq, and definitely too soon"
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      05-27-2013, 12:43 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by VCMpower View Post
Sorry if I seemed presumptuous. I was simply stating that suitable TQ can be attained. I will re read your comments.

No need, I didnt take it that way. I was just saying that a major complaint of non-boosted M's is the lack of TQ, and this kit solves that, in spades. I just hate when someone claims its not needed because they wouldn't do it, or feel its too much (is there such a thing?) so nobody should or would buy the kit.
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      05-27-2013, 12:45 PM   #93
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You stated the M3 is lacking TQ and it seems like you are referring to boosted V8's

Now you say I am out of context because I have a blower.




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Originally Posted by SSRE View Post
I dont wish to argue this over and over. Tq is Tq, and below 8k rpms, the S65 is lacking. "Look at any other V8 with boost and its apparant that the M3 is lacking it", doesnt need to be a "big block"

Compare a dyno like this to a centri. somehow, these cars seem to use that power.. I guess some people just prefer to have the most power all over, compared to peak RPM. Hence this is an option for them

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      05-27-2013, 12:45 PM   #94
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OK , Understood I LOVE TQ!

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Originally Posted by SSRE View Post
No need, I didnt take it that way. I was just saying that a major complaint of non-boosted M's is the lack of TQ, and this kit solves that, in spades. I just hate when someone claims its not needed because they wouldn't do it, or feel its too much (is there such a thing?) so nobody should or would buy the kit.
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      05-27-2013, 02:06 PM   #95
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You have enough power when you can spin the tires all the way down the longest straight...
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      05-27-2013, 04:27 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VCMpower View Post
You stated the M3 is lacking TQ and it seems like you are referring to boosted V8's

Now you say I am out of context because I have a blower.
its two-fold. overlay that graph i posted, approx 600hp and 7500 rpm limit, with the strongest S65 boosted/600hp dyno, look at the difference and tell me one is not going to move faster AND be more fun when not above 7k rpms.


now, its only discussion, because we dont know how much boost the S65 can take down low, and how much boost this kit needs to crack 600 up top.

But im merely talking about the delivery of power between what the S65 in N/A AND Centrifugal boosted form, vs this Positively Displaced setup

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      05-28-2013, 09:33 AM   #97
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Fiy, ran into the owner of Harrop on the cruise I'm on, asked the same questions asked in this thread, long story short, they have been developing this kit for 2+ years, and they are getting someone in socal help develop the tune for them. Kit is also on their personal m3, and they have been thrashing it about. No problems so far is what I hear. Will be making a trip to Australia in march to take a personal tour of the facility.

In addition to Audi they produce superchargers for lotus, as well as some US military applications.
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      05-28-2013, 11:05 AM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canuckles View Post
Fiy, ran into the owner of Harrop on the cruise I'm on, asked the same questions asked in this thread, long story short, they have been developing this kit for 2+ years, and they are getting someone in socal help develop the tune for them. Kit is also on their personal m3, and they have been thrashing it about. No problems so far is what I hear. Will be making a trip to Australia in march to take a personal tour of the facility.

In addition to Audi they produce superchargers for lotus, as well as some US military applications.
Well that is certainly reassuring to hear. Did they mention if the car was 6MT or DCT?
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      05-28-2013, 11:57 AM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ///Matthew View Post
Well that is certainly reassuring to hear. Did they mention if the car was 6MT or DCT?
6mt I believe. Will ask about dct for you guys.
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      05-28-2013, 12:08 PM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canuckles View Post
6mt I believe. Will ask about dct for you guys.
Thanks! Their kit was installed on my DCT car earlier this month, so clearly I'm interested in DCT longevity... Also, did he make any mention of blower whine? I'd imagine the roots blower would make itself known under acceleration.
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      05-28-2013, 12:37 PM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canuckles View Post
Fiy, ran into the owner of Harrop on the cruise I'm on, asked the same questions asked in this thread, long story short, they have been developing this kit for 2+ years, and they are getting someone in socal help develop the tune for them. Kit is also on their personal m3, and they have been thrashing it about. No problems so far is what I hear. Will be making a trip to Australia in march to take a personal tour of the facility.

In addition to Audi they produce superchargers for lotus, as well as some US military applications.
How are they "thrashing it about" without tuning? What you posted is a direct contradiction. Vendors like Harrop, Eaton, Whipple etc build hardware they do not typically do any tuning. The Harrop rep at Bimmerfest clearly stated that they do not have software to make the kit run and they still did not have any guess at boost or power that can be made. Hardware is the easy part, software is the difficult part of these projects. Typically a tuner will figure out the software before they build the hardware unless they are looking to farm software out to a 3rd party.
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      05-28-2013, 04:53 PM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BuckRodgers View Post
How are they "thrashing it about" without tuning? What you posted is a direct contradiction. Vendors like Harrop, Eaton, Whipple etc build hardware they do not typically do any tuning. The Harrop rep at Bimmerfest clearly stated that they do not have software to make the kit run and they still did not have any guess at boost or power that can be made. Hardware is the easy part, software is the difficult part of these projects. Typically a tuner will figure out the software before they build the hardware unless they are looking to farm software out to a 3rd party.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Canuckles View Post
Fiy, ran into the owner of Harrop on the cruise I'm on, asked the same questions asked in this thread, long story short, they have been developing this kit for 2+ years, and they are getting someone in socal help develop the tune for them. Kit is also on their personal m3, and they have been thrashing it about. No problems so far is what I hear. Will be making a trip to Australia in march to take a personal tour of the facility.

In addition to Audi they produce superchargers for lotus, as well as some US military applications.
I've heard some unofficial news about this. We will see what happens in the next coming weeks. Can't wait to see the power being made.
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      05-28-2013, 05:32 PM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tightie View Post
I've heard some unofficial news about this. We will see what happens in the next coming weeks. Can't wait to see the power being made.



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      05-29-2013, 01:13 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SSRE View Post
First, Its absurd for one person to tell another they do or do not need anything. Its another option, dont want it, dont buy.
Secondly, Judging by the #1 vocalized shortcoming of the S65 owners, the response is lack of low end grunt. This solves that problem.

Again, I would assume less than 10% of time in the M3 is above even 7K, let alone 83-8600 rpms, its going to be nice to have more power, earlier.
Meh, that's what the transmission is for.
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      05-29-2013, 01:33 PM   #105
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You've hit the essence of the issue. And it very well may be addressed in the Harrop twin screw by incorporating a system to regulate boost.
Yep, here is the crux of it. Regulating boost on a PD type supercharger would retain the same characteristics of a centrifugal type device. Certainly, it can work but, if you can stress the limits of adhesion, with a cheaper/simpler system, why change it?

I will say though, the one benefit of high boost at low engine speeds is the ability to access a significant portion of max engine power, without having to downshift. I enjoy that charcteristic of my 335i. But, as you have stated, it could become a problem, once the power is increased and, if I'm running around, trying to launch the car all the time. IMO, in a chassis like the E92, its more beneficial to limit low end power output, in favor if high RPM power output. It fits better with the sporty GT/weekend track car nature of our machines. We just cannot match the traction capabilities of, say, larger american sports cars, with high displacement V8s. So, why bother?



Now, this argument is academic, since no one on the forums has seen a dyno curve/driven this car yet. All we can do is make inferences from other, similar motors with similar PD devices on them. If you take a look at the curves from the SC'ed V8 in the B7 RS4, you'd see that pwoer delivery remains fairly linear. The engine's torque output still tends to increase as a function of engine speed. Maybe, just maybe, an S65 with a PD device would still drive like an N/A S65, just with more power everywhere.
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      05-29-2013, 02:19 PM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonjt View Post
Yep, here is the crux of it. Regulating boost on a PD type supercharger would retain the same characteristics of a centrifugal type device. Certainly, it can work but, if you can stress the limits of adhesion, with a cheaper/simpler system, why change it?

I will say though, the one benefit of high boost at low engine speeds is the ability to access a significant portion of max engine power, without having to downshift. I enjoy that charcteristic of my 335i. But, as you have stated, it could become a problem, once the power is increased and, if I'm running around, trying to launch the car all the time. IMO, in a chassis like the E92, its more beneficial to limit low end power output, in favor if high RPM power output. It fits better with the sporty GT/weekend track car nature of our machines. We just cannot match the traction capabilities of, say, larger american sports cars, with high displacement V8s. So, why bother?



Now, this argument is academic, since no one on the forums has seen a dyno curve/driven this car yet. All we can do is make inferences from other, similar motors with similar PD devices on them. If you take a look at the curves from the SC'ed V8 in the B7 RS4, you'd see that pwoer delivery remains fairly linear. The engine's torque output still tends to increase as a function of engine speed. Maybe, just maybe, an S65 with a PD device would still drive like an N/A S65, just with more power everywhere.
I know for sure that with my manual tranny, a lot of times on the highway I would prefer to have more torque in the middle range then having to downshift to feel the power, I guess that's one of the advantages the DCT has, it makes the downshifts a bit easier for the driver and the car! I would'nt mind a 100lb-ft more of torque but not in 1st and 2nd gear since traction is already hard to find, I'm wondering what they could do to settle that problem.

Overhall, I'm really happy with my kit, for a fairly cheap price I have plenty of power and most importantly very good reliability but I'm still curious to see what Harrop is gonna acheive with this kit!! Can't wait to see some numbers and mostly can't wait to see some cars performing with it!
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      05-29-2013, 02:42 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by Jonjt View Post
Meh, that's what the transmission is for.
so your gas pedal is always on floor and never leaves? interesting, i didnt think people cruise at 7500rpm around town in 2nd gear.
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      05-29-2013, 03:09 PM   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex07M3 View Post
I know for sure that with my manual tranny, a lot of times on the highway I would prefer to have more torque in the middle range then having to downshift to feel the power, I guess that's one of the advantages the DCT has, it makes the downshifts a bit easier for the driver and the car! I would'nt mind a 100lb-ft more of torque but not in 1st and 2nd gear since traction is already hard to find, I'm wondering what they could do to settle that problem.

Overhall, I'm really happy with my kit, for a fairly cheap price I have plenty of power and most importantly very good reliability but I'm still curious to see what Harrop is gonna acheive with this kit!! Can't wait to see some numbers and mostly can't wait to see some cars performing with it!
I agree with you. That's the only time when I think it's useful to have gobs of torque at 2.5k rpms. High gear, high speed, low engine speed.
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      05-29-2013, 03:09 PM   #109
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so your gas pedal is always on floor and never leaves? interesting, i didnt think people cruise at 7500rpm around town in 2nd gear.
You cannot be serious with this reply............
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      05-29-2013, 03:41 PM   #110
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You cannot be serious with this reply............
you mean everyone lives at redline every time they drive the car? I must be a minority for thinking id like to not have to drop a gear or 3 to accelerate
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonjt View Post
...

So, while my tuned N54 335i is faster than any M3 I've run into on the street AND on the track, I still pine for an S65 (specifically, a supercharged one). And, I do so because I believe the M3 is a better drive. It makes me feel better than a 335i does. Since we do not race these cars for a living (at least, 99% of us don't), we all should just stop arguing and buy whatever makes us happy/we can afford.
thats last sentence really solidifies my point..

Last edited by Verify; 05-29-2013 at 04:10 PM.
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