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      05-21-2013, 02:54 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Longboarder View Post
Has a roots/twin screw blower ever been affixed to a Ferrari, Lambo or other low-displacement, high revving motor like the S65?

I know they run them on NSXs... That motor is low-displacement and revs quite high.

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      05-21-2013, 02:54 PM   #46
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Saw this kit and it looks very promising. The company is not new to Forced Induction applications either. They are late to the game, but this is another great form of FI for the M3. Tuning is the major obstacle they must perfect, but the parts are precision pieces.
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      05-21-2013, 02:57 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Longboarder View Post
Interesting. Could appeal to some who feel the M3 motor "lacks torque".

With max torque perhaps available at 2,000 RPM (or lower), the S65 will feel like a LS-variant motor.

Questions:

Will it be able to retain the 8,400 RPM limit or will it need to limit RPM's to some lower level to prevent out-of-control IAT's at the top of the rev-range?

Will it be available for the DCT transmissions or will they need to be strengthened to handle the gobs of additional torque?

Will there need to be complemetary modifications to aid in traction - like an upgraded LSD or other driveline components to deal with the massive increase in torque at the low-end of the RPM range?

Will it be able to prevent over-heating oil temps at the track on hot summer days?

Can it run on 91 octane?

Has a roots/twin screw blower ever been affixed to a Ferrari, Lambo or other low-displacement, high revving motor like the S65?
Additionally, I know the system utilizes a throttle body for the blower itself to regulate boost pressure. So even though the blower is producing roughly the same boost across the rev band, the amount of boost the motor sees can be regulated. That being said, I would imagine that the transmission and traction would be impacted in a similar manner as the current supercharger offerings. (I am far from an expert, but that is my understanding...)
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      05-21-2013, 03:06 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ///Matthew View Post
Additionally, I know the system utilizes a throttle body for the blower itself to regulate boost pressure. So even though the blower is producing roughly the same boost across the rev band, the amount of boost the motor sees can be regulated. That being said, I would imagine that the transmission and traction would be impacted in a similar manner as the current supercharger offerings. (I am far from an expert, but that is my understanding...)
Ok thanks.
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      05-21-2013, 03:36 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Longboarder View Post
Interesting. Could appeal to some who feel the M3 motor "lacks torque".

With max torque perhaps available at 2,000 RPM (or lower), the S65 will feel like a LS-variant motor.

Questions:

Will it be able to retain the 8,400 RPM limit or will it need to limit RPM's to some lower level to prevent out-of-control IAT's at the top of the rev-range?

Will it be available for the DCT transmissions or will they need to be strengthened to handle the gobs of additional torque?

Will there need to be complemetary modifications to aid in traction - like an upgraded LSD or other driveline components to deal with the massive increase in torque at the low-end of the RPM range?

Will it be able to prevent over-heating oil temps at the track on hot summer days?

Can it run on 91 octane?

Has a roots/twin screw blower ever been affixed to a Ferrari, Lambo or other low-displacement, high revving motor like the S65?
As far as hot summer track use... Harrop is based in Australia... Where track days get very hot. Looks like they've had the kit in Australia already.

Just a matter of tuning for North America
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      05-21-2013, 05:41 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Longboarder View Post
Has a roots/twin screw blower ever been affixed to a Ferrari, Lambo or other low-displacement, high revving motor like the S65?
There was a positive displacement kit for the s2000. That's about as low-displacemnt and high revving as it gets.
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      05-21-2013, 06:57 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turbo8765

There was a positive displacement kit for the s2000. That's about as low-displacemnt and high revving as it gets.
I should have remembered that one... I was going to get one for my old 2003 S2000.
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      05-21-2013, 08:30 PM   #52
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They certainly aren't pricing this kit to penetrate the market. At 13k or so, they are pricing the kit on par with already proven kits. As a value proposition its hard to take a 13k dive on an unproven kit, especially one based on entirely new architecture for the e9x M3.

Especially coming this late to the game, and at that price point, it will be hard for them to penetrate the market under the weight of heavy hitters like ESS, VF, and Gintani.

While I'm curious to see what I think will be promising results, I (probably like most people here) sure as hell wouldn't guinea pig my car on an unproven kit, especially for 14k. They'll probably have to throw a lot of sponsorships out there to generate some kind of a sample size for the reliability of the kit. But can anyone really trust the veracity of someone's "unbiased" assesement of the kit or its reliability when they're getting sponsored (essentially paid). Especially with rumors of people being made subject to confidentiality (non-disclosure) agreements after certain kits, early in their development, blew engines.

I like the promise of this kit, but I will reserve judgment not for the actual release, but after this kit has been on 50, 100, 200 cars and the data demonstrates that the kit is safe on the engine. The question is, can they get that many kits on the car before people are moving on to the next thing. After alll, this car is coming to the end of its lifecycle.

-esquire
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      05-22-2013, 05:02 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by esquire View Post
They certainly aren't pricing this kit to penetrate the market. At 13k or so, they are pricing the kit on par with already proven kits. As a value proposition its hard to take a 13k dive on an unproven kit, especially one based on entirely new architecture for the e9x M3.

Especially coming this late to the game, and at that price point, it will be hard for them to penetrate the market under the weight of heavy hitters like ESS, VF, and Gintani.

While I'm curious to see what I think will be promising results, I (probably like most people here) sure as hell wouldn't guinea pig my car on an unproven kit, especially for 14k. They'll probably have to throw a lot of sponsorships out there to generate some kind of a sample size for the reliability of the kit. But can anyone really trust the veracity of someone's "unbiased" assesement of the kit or its reliability when they're getting sponsored (essentially paid). Especially with rumors of people being made subject to confidentiality (non-disclosure) agreements after certain kits, early in their development, blew engines.

I like the promise of this kit, but I will reserve judgment not for the actual release, but after this kit has been on 50, 100, 200 cars and the data demonstrates that the kit is safe on the engine. The question is, can they get that many kits on the car before people are moving on to the next thing. After alll, this car is coming to the end of its lifecycle.

-esquire
A couple points:

Saying it's late in the game seems short-sighted somewhat. While a different market offering, HPF came into E46 M forced-induction a few years after the platform had been out, and saw great success.

Another consideration is that it's not uncommon for force-fed E9X owners to switch between kits (often upgrading within the family) but to excuse the possibility of migration to another offering is just erroneous.

Is there an equivalent sample size (100 - 200 cars) available for ESS kits? Gintani kits? VF kits? I'd argue that a smaller sample size, with greater emphasis on mileage would speak more appropriately to the capability of the kit.

Lastly, thanks for signing your post, I was worried someone else logged into your account and posted from your handle. The redundancy is appreciated
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      05-22-2013, 10:00 AM   #54
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FYI: The APR SC for the B7 RS4 uses an Eaton TVS blower from Harrop. The RS4's V8 is very similar in displacement and power delivery to the S65........ Just thought I'd throw that out there!!!
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      05-22-2013, 10:28 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMRLVR View Post
FYI: The APR SC for the B7 RS4 uses an Eaton TVS blower from Harrop. The RS4's V8 is very similar in displacement and power delivery to the S65........ Just thought I'd throw that out there!!!
I was wondering as to why the Audi supercharger on the Harrop site was APR branded... Good to know
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      05-22-2013, 11:19 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sterile stork View Post
A couple points:

Saying it's late in the game seems short-sighted somewhat. While a different market offering, HPF came into E46 M forced-induction a few years after the platform had been out, and saw great success.
Sure. How much did those kits cost? (From what I can tell, $5k. Which would go exactly to my point)

Quote:
Originally Posted by sterile stork View Post
Another consideration is that it's not uncommon for force-fed E9X owners to switch between kits (often upgrading within the family) but to excuse the possibility of migration to another offering is just erroneous.
Upgrading "within the family" is a huge difference compared to upgrading BETWEEN different kits. A lot of people upgrade their VF or ESS kits from stage 1 to stage 2. The cost to do that is low - the barrier to entry has been removed. Fewer go from stage 2 to 3. But there are only a handful ofpeople who take a kit off, and purchase an entirely brand new kit. If Harrop is counting on those kinds of numbers, they're not going like the conversion rate. Its your assumption thats erroneous.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sterile stork View Post
Is there an equivalent sample size (100 - 200 cars) available for ESS kits? Gintani kits? VF kits? I'd argue that a smaller sample size, with greater emphasis on mileage would speak more appropriately to the capability of the kit.
ESS has a sample size in that ballpark. Can't speak to to Gintani or VF. Even assuming your argument about smaller sample size and more miles is correct - its not -it does nothing to defeat the point i made earlier: that until that sample size is out they'll be hard pressed to penetrate the market. Putting the kind of miles that you're talking about (in other words so many miles to compensate for a lack of sample size) would still take an extraordinary amount of time.


Quote:
Originally Posted by sterile stork View Post
Lastly, thanks for signing your post, I was worried someone else logged into your account and posted from your handle. The redundancy is appreciated

your dull sarcasm is noted. i sign most of my posts. since you seem so thrilled with them, here's another just for you.

-esquire


p.s. for what its worth. nothing i'm saying here is intended to knock the architecture or innovation of the kit, or a criticism on what kind of numbers it can put down. I'm actually very hopeful about them, and think they may be onto something promising. My comments are geared strictly to their price point and market penetration.
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      05-22-2013, 11:31 AM   #57
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sorry, what HPF kit was $5K?

doesnt MaxPSI just now have a kit coming out for E46..?

as for changing kits, its not a very common practice, but all the current kits have been centrifugal, not PD. Completely different experience that will entice others.

I actually think this kit will sell very well considering a complaint among many people, myself included, is that the M3 is anemic down low.
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      05-22-2013, 12:42 PM   #58
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I'm always fond of innovative products. Good luck with everything. Looking forward to seen a proper tune on this car and see how it behaves on the S65.
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      05-22-2013, 01:43 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlos@MORR View Post
I'm always fond of innovative products. Good luck with everything. Looking forward to seen a proper tune on this car and see how it behaves on the S65.
I'm looking forward to a proper tune as well! Thanks!
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      05-22-2013, 02:38 PM   #60
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Considering the M3 is still very expensive in other parts of the world, once M3s depreciate enough, there will probably be a new wave of 2nd and 3rd owner cars that will be interested in purchasing FI. It's not like only original owners mod or supercharge their cars.. derp. It's unfair to say this company is late to the game when it's the ONLY company offering a positive displacement style supercharger. Is it priced high? Remains to be seen.
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      05-22-2013, 03:44 PM   #61
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OMG!!!! AWESOME looking kit. I asked when I first bought my M3, why no one had done this and I recall someone said the motor wouldn't be able to handle all the low end tq so fast. Anyhow, I really hope this works out great. Looks stunning.
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      05-22-2013, 05:35 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by esquire View Post
Big post
The biggest disagreement I have with your post is the sample size remark; by merely claiming an extended duration, or marathon use is an erroneous method to prove resilience, is an erroneous remark in itself. Please correct me if I am wrong, but I believe it is common for engine manufacturers to tout the abilities of a power-plant based upon the results of endurance type activities, recently the Ford V6 Ecoboost offering being just such an example. As a buyer I'm interested in knowing to what extend a system is capable of operating, and to a lesser extent how many may be in operation e.g., the capability of a system isn't compounded by the mere addition of systems in operation, that is a supplemental or reinforcing argument, not a primary.

I am also reluctant to believe that any one FI supplier within this market application has a sample size in the 100 - 200 car range, again, correct me if I am wrong, but that is quite a size-able grouping, both in willing end-user parties, and total cost associated. Please don't interpret this as my hoping for the poor-performance of any vendor in the market, I would love for that sample size to be accurate.

I appreciate your point of view and thank you for responding to my remarks. I hope not to draw away from the excitement about the offering, and gather the same from you as well. I'm really looking forward to the coming developments within this kit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SSRE View Post
sorry, what HPF kit was $5K?

doesnt MaxPSI just now have a kit coming out for E46..?

as for changing kits, its not a very common practice, but all the current kits have been centrifugal, not PD. Completely different experience that will entice others.

I actually think this kit will sell very well considering a complaint among many people, myself included, is that the M3 is anemic down low.
In short statement, you captured a good number of points I intended to make myself with my post.

Needless to say, once the numbers come in, I am very likely to become a customer

Quote:
Originally Posted by ///Matthew View Post
I'm looking forward to a proper tune as well! Thanks!
The tuning remark has been highlighted a number of times in this thread, I'm a bit at a loss -- is the greatest hurdle the addition of displacement and tuning appropriate for it?
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      05-22-2013, 05:50 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sterile stork View Post
Is there an equivalent sample size (100 - 200 cars) available for ESS kits? I'd argue that a smaller sample size, with greater emphasis on mileage would speak more appropriately to the capability of the kit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by esquire View Post
ESS has a sample size in that ballpark.
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showpos...19&postcount=5

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roman@ESS View Post
The S65 motor has held up with boost very well over the years when tuned properly and kept within it's limits. We have been very happy with this platform. With well over 500 kits installed worldwide now the track record on our kits have been very solid.

Last edited by whats77inaname; 05-22-2013 at 06:52 PM.
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      05-22-2013, 05:55 PM   #64
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Thanks for the quote! Your link isn't helping though

EDIT: VVVVV NO SIGNATURE!! WHO POSTED?!

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      05-22-2013, 06:11 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Plutonium View Post
I think this thing will be incredible, I just don't understanding the business side of that project. An expensive new kit for a soon out of production car? Seems like they missed the boat by a couple of years.
exactly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sterile stork View Post
The biggest disagreement I have with your post is the sample size remark; by merely claiming an extended duration, or marathon use is an erroneous method to prove resilience, is an erroneous remark in itself. Please correct me if I am wrong, but I believe it is common for engine manufacturers to tout the abilities of a power-plant based upon the results of endurance type activities, recently the Ford V6 Ecoboost offering being just such an example. As a buyer I'm interested in knowing to what extend a system is capable of operating, and to a lesser extent how many may be in operation e.g., the capability of a system isn't compounded by the mere addition of systems in operation, that is a supplemental or reinforcing argument, not a primary.

I am also reluctant to believe that any one FI supplier within this market application has a sample size in the 100 - 200 car range, again, correct me if I am wrong, but that is quite a size-able grouping, both in willing end-user parties, and total cost associated. Please don't interpret this as my hoping for the poor-performance of any vendor in the market, I would love for that sample size to be accurate.

I appreciate your point of view and thank you for responding to my remarks. I hope not to draw away from the excitement about the offering, and gather the same from you as well. I'm really looking forward to the coming developments within this kit.
I can't say for sure, since I'm not the owner of ESS, but I believe that ESS kits number into the hundreds and might be over the 200 mark.

I think the poster below was trying to link us to something which demonstrated how many ESS owners are out there, but mis-linked. I seem to recall a thread listing all the known ESS owners - (at least known at the time the thread was created).

Quote:
Originally Posted by whats77inaname View Post
I think you mis-linked? when i click on this i'm directed to a page discussing wheel sizes for the x5.
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      05-22-2013, 06:51 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by esquire View Post
I think you mis-linked? when i click on this i'm directed to a page discussing wheel sizes for the x5.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sterile stork View Post
Thanks for the quote! Your link isn't helping though

Can't figure out what's going on with that. It's a link to the quoted information.

When I clicked on it, I get sent to E90 post?

Let's try it again

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showpos...19&postcount=5

And updated original post.
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