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      01-16-2017, 02:31 PM   #1
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Ran slower with camber plates and alignment

So I have a zcp that has stock suspension which had -1.7 front camber with zero toe. Rear was -1.5 slight toe in.

Put vorshlag plates on and got alignment to -2.7 front with fair amount of toe out .rear was unchanged.

I ran at a very familiar track this weekend with same tires and same weather as usual but was half second slower than usual. It's a 1:08 minute track so to me it's a significant drop especially expecting an improved.

Car felt loose in general on high speed turns , turn in on all corners, mid corner oversteer also was terribly unstable in straight line braking and trail braking control.

I have to think it's the toe out but any otger thoughts?
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      01-16-2017, 02:52 PM   #2
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The rear camber should also be set to -1.5-2.0, -3/16" toe in, front should be at 1/16-1/8" toe out for your -2.7 negative camber (based on my recommended coilover adjustments that I run on track). Note that adjusting the camber affects the toe on the rear (and front) so adjustments need to be made by someone who knows what they're doing. I'm also considering rear toe links to make the job a lot easier for an alignment shop.

Also did the camber plates increase your front ride height? Ultimately if you track a lot a set of height adjustable coilovers will allow the ability to corner balance and ensure better stability/smoothness through transitions.


Quote:
Originally Posted by 8600RPM View Post
So I have a zcp that has stock suspension which had -1.7 front camber with zero toe. Rear was -1.5 slight toe in.

Put vorshlag plates on and got alignment to -2.7 front with fair amount of toe out .rear was unchanged.

I ran at a very familiar track this weekend with same tires and same weather as usual but was half second slower than usual. It's a 1:08 minute track so to me it's a significant drop especially expecting an improved.

Car felt loose in general on high speed turns , turn in on all corners, mid corner oversteer also was terribly unstable in straight line braking and trail braking control.

I have to think it's the toe out but any otger thoughts?
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      01-16-2017, 03:54 PM   #3
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I haven't heard too many run toe out in the front. Most run 0 toe or a small amount of toe in for the front.

How much toe out did you have on the front?
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      01-16-2017, 05:49 PM   #4
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Toe out in the front helps turn-in on the track but will wear tires fast if driving on the street. As FogCityM3 mentioned, typically people run up to ~1/8" toe out in the front. For the rear, a little static toe in helps stability and also counters some of the toe-out that occurs under squat when accelerating out of a corner. Also toe out in the front will cause scrubbing, which slows straight line speed and why most Spec Miata's run zero toe out in the front.
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      01-16-2017, 08:55 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobE92M3 View Post
Toe out in the front helps turn-in on the track but will wear tires fast if driving on the street. As FogCityM3 mentioned, typically people run up to ~1/8" toe out in the front. For the rear, a little static toe in helps stability and also counters some of the toe-out that occurs under squat when accelerating out of a corner. Also toe out in the front will cause scrubbing, which slows straight line speed and why most Spec Miata's run zero toe out in the front.
Thanks for the explanation.
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      01-16-2017, 11:41 PM   #6
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IMO, the benefits of toe out up front don't outweigh the negatives. The car in general is typically less predictable and more unstable, especially when you slap on tons of front rubber.

However some of what u feel I is simply just more front grip from better camber up front. Slow your hands down on entry, zero up the front toe, and try about a 1' split in camber front to rear.
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      01-17-2017, 02:01 AM   #7
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you're going to somewhat have to "relearn" driving the car, because now it has more turn-in. are you used to lifting to get more turn-in? start paying attention to your track driving habits. and aggressive lift with camber plates will cause oversteer (as well as a few other situations).
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      01-17-2017, 01:15 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roastbeef View Post
you're going to somewhat have to "relearn" driving the car, because now it has more turn-in. are you used to lifting to get more turn-in? start paying attention to your track driving habits. and aggressive lift with camber plates will cause oversteer (as well as a few other situations).
That's a great point. I believe I preferred a bit more neutral of a car that I could have better control over bringing rear out on a lift or trail brake. I imagine it's also preference? Maybe -2.8 camber up front with zero toe or a hsir of toe. But less toe than I have now would work.
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      01-17-2017, 01:21 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mvez View Post
IMO, the benefits of toe out up front don't outweigh the negatives. The car in general is typically less predictable and more unstable, especially when you slap on tons of front rubber.

However some of what u feel I is simply just more front grip from better camber up front. Slow your hands down on entry, zero up the front toe, and try about a 1' split in camber front to rear.
Yes that is exactly how I feel. Too much grip up front compared to back making things unpredictable and therefore slower because I couldn't confidently carry speed as I normally do without fighting rear end. I like being able to loosen rear end with throttle rather than have it loose on own.

-2.9 up front -1.5 rear and zero toe front with mild toe in rear. Should work well for me
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      01-17-2017, 02:14 PM   #10
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You should try not to decrease grip on one end to help the overall balance. Preferred practice is to work on the grip-challenged end to increase grip.
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      01-17-2017, 02:32 PM   #11
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As roastbeef said, with -2.7 front camber you can trust your car more and lift less before the turn in.
Also I think that -1.7 rear camber is not enough. I have -2.8f /-2r with staggered tire set up and my car is very balanced coming out of corners. With more rear negative camber you will have more contact patch in the corners and will be able to get on power sooner due to more grip.
Do you have staggered or square set up?
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      01-17-2017, 04:17 PM   #12
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Staggered stock sizes. Rear tire wear is perfectly even and car handled great before so think I'll start with removing toe
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      01-17-2017, 05:15 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8600RPM View Post
Staggered stock sizes. Rear tire wear is perfectly even and car handled great before so think I'll start with removing toe
Something to consider as well is how much camber you run upfront relative to the tire compound you running. My personal experience I ran Hankooks TD on -2.9 camber upfront and with NT01 I was understeering a lot on the same alignment setup. Only when I dialed it down to -2.5 car was very balanced. You can always check the contact patch using Tyre Pyrometers and make sure your running the correct tire pressure. Also, always run your rear at -1.8/-2.0 for the correct contact patch, you'll get better grip on corner exits. Toe based on my experience 0 upfront and a slight toe in (0.05) in the rear, if you like your car to be more slidy go to 0.10.

Cheers!
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      01-18-2017, 12:51 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8600RPM View Post
That's a great point. I believe I preferred a bit more neutral of a car that I could have better control over bringing rear out on a lift or trail brake. I imagine it's also preference? Maybe -2.8 camber up front with zero toe or a hsir of toe. But less toe than I have now would work.
you can do the same thing, you'll just be doing it a different way. practice being smoother in your brake release for a smoother transition. what i like with camber plates is if you get too aggressive in a turn or go in too hot, you can always back off of the throttle and get more turn in. you'll blow the turn and lap time, but you won't drop a wheel.
now that you have more turn-in, practice some maintenance throttle to take some weight off the front wheels. you won't have that front heavy-scrubby oversteer from lifting. you'll enjoy a good turn-in while rolling into the throttle as you spot the exit. i think you may just be used to getting the car to rotate a different way and need to get used to the added camber.
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      01-18-2017, 02:15 PM   #15
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Car attitude should be neutral to slightly oversteer before you get to the apex, with enough front grip to take as much throttle as possible as early as possible becayse acceleratoon unloads the front tires, taking front grip away as you shift weight to the outside rear

The stock tire sizes with stock camber is a pushy-loose setup and teaches you some bad habits imo.
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      01-18-2017, 09:26 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richbot View Post
The stock tire sizes with stock camber is a pushy-loose setup and teaches you some bad habits imo.
I'm with him.
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      01-25-2017, 06:11 PM   #17
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I can understand why you would run some toe out with stock camber to help with turn in. Not sure why you would do that with camber plates. Just adding negative camber will greatly improve turn in response.

There is also an adjustment period.
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      02-03-2017, 01:35 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ahmed Jimmy View Post
Something to consider as well is how much camber you run upfront relative to the tire compound you running. My personal experience I ran Hankooks TD on -2.9 camber upfront and with NT01 I was understeering a lot on the same alignment setup. Only when I dialed it down to -2.5 car was very balanced. You can always check the contact patch using Tyre Pyrometers and make sure your running the correct tire pressure. Also, always run your rear at -1.8/-2.0 for the correct contact patch, you'll get better grip on corner exits. Toe based on my experience 0 upfront and a slight toe in (0.05) in the rear, if you like your car to be more slidy go to 0.10.

Cheers!
^ This....

I tried -3/-2 setup and car was a handful wearing the inside more... Spoke with Malek and dialed back to -2.5/-1.8 and its fantastic (running OEMish suspension no coilover). FYI 0 toe up front.

Cheers,

Lutfy
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