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      11-18-2013, 11:08 AM   #67
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I just wanted to chime in here. I've never owned an M3, but I've driven an E92 M3 a bit, and owned an E92 335i myself.

A few months back I drove my friend's sister's 2012 911 991 base and it was absolutely thrilling, I knew right then and there I had to have one. At the time I owned a CTS-V Coupe with straight pipes so the experience of going from that to test driving this girl's 991 was somewhat shocking. It felt way down on power, but way up on involvement--which is always a bonus. The way the car was so dialed in and glued to the road, the way the interior was no-nonsense and totally functional and cleanly designed, and the noise the engine made all drummed up serious feelings of automotive lust. Of course, coming from the V I clearly noticed that the car was slower, but that didn't matter so much.

A month or two after driving the base 991 (which was plastidipped baby blue...chinese college students), I found a lightly used (1,870 miles) Carrara White 2012 911 991 C2S about 100 miles away from me. I snagged it and traded my CTS-V Coupe in on it.

I will have to say I have mixed feelings about the 991 C2S. The handling is out of this world, though the back end still gets loose pretty easily. The PDK is astounding and blasts gearshifts off in the blink of a very fast eye. The sound is intoxicating, especially in sport mode, though I often wonder how much of what I'm hearing is from the famous VAG "Soundaktor". At least it's not the F10 M5's pre-recorded engine noise, but it's not far off in terms of tackiness. Another thing is attention, get ready for lots of it. This car draws eyes, smiles, thumbs up, and the occasional middle finger.

Here's the thing though, the car feels so overly capable and so clinical in its approach to performance that the overall experience is lacking in what I imagine used to be the trademark 911 sports car rawness, or the trademark rawness of any sports car for that matter. The CTS-V was cumbersome and not as capable as the 911, but it felt more alive and more willing to play, not to mention the raucous bellow of that blown V8. The 991 C2S sometimes feels like you're being shuttled around by a german doctor who just wants to get you to your destination without too much fun in between.

Don't get me wrong, the car is astounding, and gorgeous. But something is missing, and I even realized that I was more excited driving the base 991 than the C2S, and maybe that's because the C2S is TOO capable. It has more power than can really be utilized on the street, and the way it delivers performance is very clean cut, not visceral and engaging.

Two more things. I work in the countryside at a winery, so my drive to work involves a bit of a commute into rural areas with large sweeping turns and the occasional hairpin--regardless, the other day I got 28.8 MPG over a 25 minute drive to work going about 70 MPH most of the way. This is worlds better than the CTS-V Coupe could ever hope for. And the second thing, I did a straight line race on a controlled road with a tuned twin-turbo Audi RS6 and had him looking at my tail lights the whole way. Very impressive performance from this car, but again, not very engaging.

Sorry for the rant, hope that at least helps potential buyers. Oddly enough, I have been looking at selling my 991 and getting a DCT E92 M3 and an E39 M5.
The 991s will definitely make the M3 feels like a big mushy GT. I still prefer the sound of the S65, although the flat 6 is wonderful too. I really do love the 991s (even more than the actual owner of the one I got to play with in the mountains), but I did the mistake of driving a base Boxster vs a $130k C4S. As an owner of a modded M3, I came away more impressed with the Boxster to be honest. And a lot of that had to do with the price of that 911. Maybe it's not a factor for a lot of people on here, but I just can't justify why the 911 was twice as expensive as the Boxster or 3 times more expensive than my used M3. I know it's apples vs oranges, but hopefully someone understands my thought process.

I went away from that test drive thinking:
1) Boxster, loved it. Would love to add one. Still a little too expensive, would prefer Cayman anyway. Wished they wouldn't have limited the power so much.
2) 911. Amazing, felt big though. Not sure it's worth that much
3) Used M3 with 70k miles at that point. What a bargain, no regrets, plan on keeping and adding more toys to the garage vs replace it.
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      11-18-2013, 09:51 PM   #68
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The 991s will definitely make the M3 feels like a big mushy GT. I still prefer the sound of the S65, although the flat 6 is wonderful too. I really do love the 991s (even more than the actual owner of the one I got to play with in the mountains), but I did the mistake of driving a base Boxster vs a $130k C4S. As an owner of a modded M3, I came away more impressed with the Boxster to be honest. And a lot of that had to do with the price of that 911. Maybe it's not a factor for a lot of people on here, but I just can't justify why the 911 was twice as expensive as the Boxster or 3 times more expensive than my used M3. I know it's apples vs oranges, but hopefully someone understands my thought process.

I went away from that test drive thinking:
1) Boxster, loved it. Would love to add one. Still a little too expensive, would prefer Cayman anyway. Wished they wouldn't have limited the power so much.
2) 911. Amazing, felt big though. Not sure it's worth that much
3) Used M3 with 70k miles at that point. What a bargain, no regrets, plan on keeping and adding more toys to the garage vs replace it.
You do realize the new cayman S runs 12.4@112.1 right? Boxster S has same performance. Just because it has 325 hp (cayman S) doesnt mean it wont run circles around our M3s all day long esp on the track or on a back road. HP only means so much...power to weight is where it really counts and handling doesn't get much better than a 911 or cayman/boxster. There is no better car out there for the price IMO than a 911, especially the GT3.
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      11-18-2013, 10:13 PM   #69
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You do realize the new cayman S runs 12.4@112.1 right? Boxster S has same performance. Just because it has 325 hp (cayman S) doesnt mean it wont run circles around our M3s all day long esp on the track or on a back road. HP only means so much...power to weight is where it really counts and handling doesn't get much better than a 911 or cayman/boxster. There is no better car out there for the price IMO than a 911, especially the GT3.
I said I'd love to add one, just didn't wish Porsche would artificially restrict it like that. Don't need for you to come defend Porsche every single time, really not necessary.
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      11-18-2013, 11:39 PM   #70
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I juggled this and believe a base 991 is plenty of car for most enthusiasts, and its limits much easier to explore. The base carrera and cayman S would be pretty even in a drag race, but the 991 will still walk it around a track fairly easily, even with it's less optimal configuration.
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      11-22-2013, 07:10 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W/// View Post
I said I'd love to add one, just didn't wish Porsche would artificially restrict it like that. Don't need for you to come defend Porsche every single time, really not necessary.
there's always the 3.8 motor swap on an earlier Cayman to do what Porsche has been afraid of doing
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      11-23-2013, 08:06 AM   #72
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Damn, Porsches suck don't even look at them they are by far the worst cars on the planet and have no feel to them at all. Keep the M3 or get a new corolla heard those are really sweet.
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      11-23-2013, 04:46 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfinwolfsclothing View Post
There is no better car out there for the price IMO than a 911, especially the GT3.
There is absolutely no way you can justify the price of a 911 against cars like the GT-R. I regard a base 991 as a step down from a Cayman S. The 991 S is a considerable upgrade from the base car but, optioned at $120k+, it is playing in waters against cars that will absolutely devastate it in terms of pure sports car pleasure.

I have not driven the 991 but some seat time with a 997.2 C2S left me hugely underwhelmed. The Cayman S gives you all of the driver pleasure that the 911 gives you but at a much lower price.

If you care about having fun behind the wheel --> Cayman S or GT-R
If you care about performance numbers -> Z06, ZR1, GT-R
If you care about about price and performance -> Z06
If you care about prestige styling -> 911
If you want it all -> 911 Turbo/GT3/GT2

Honestly I wouldn't take any 911 less than a Turbo. I just think the C2 and C2S kinda scream "I really wish I could have afforded the Turbo but hope you won't notice the difference".

And since I don't have $180k, really want 4 doors, and need 4 seats for kids in the back, I think it's gonna be an F80 M3 for me.
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      11-23-2013, 06:54 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by basscadet View Post
There is absolutely no way you can justify the price of a 911 against cars like the GT-R. I regard a base 991 as a step down from a Cayman S. The 991 S is a considerable upgrade from the base car but, optioned at $120k+, it is playing in waters against cars that will absolutely devastate it in terms of pure sports car pleasure.

I have not driven the 991 but some seat time with a 997.2 C2S left me hugely underwhelmed. The Cayman S gives you all of the driver pleasure that the 911 gives you but at a much lower price.

If you care about having fun behind the wheel --> Cayman S or GT-R
If you care about performance numbers -> Z06, ZR1, GT-R
If you care about about price and performance -> Z06
If you care about prestige styling -> 911
If you want it all -> 911 Turbo/GT3/GT2

Honestly I wouldn't take any 911 less than a Turbo. I just think the C2 and C2S kinda scream "I really wish I could have afforded the Turbo but hope you won't notice the difference".

And since I don't have $180k, really want 4 doors, and need 4 seats for kids in the back, I think it's gonna be an F80 M3 for me.
You say "pure sports car pleasure", the GT-R has none of that, its purely stupidly fast, and that its. Yes I have driven one many times, and yes I own a 991 C4s, and have driven plenty of fast cars over the years.

If I wanted a 991 Turbo, I would buy a 991 Turbo…but I drive a C4S instead for now. I wouldn't spend 180K on a Turbo.

The GT3 is honestly the 911 to have, but I need the rear seat to take my son to school.
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      11-24-2013, 08:14 AM   #75
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To be serious I don't think I would pick a 991 base over an M3 but I would pick a 981 cayman s over an M3 any day.
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      11-24-2013, 09:00 AM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by basscadet View Post
There is absolutely no way you can justify the price of a 911 against cars like the GT-R. I regard a base 991 as a step down from a Cayman S. The 991 S is a considerable upgrade from the base car but, optioned at $120k+, it is playing in waters against cars that will absolutely devastate it in terms of pure sports car pleasure.

I have not driven the 991 but some seat time with a 997.2 C2S left me hugely underwhelmed. The Cayman S gives you all of the driver pleasure that the 911 gives you but at a much lower price.

If you care about having fun behind the wheel --> Cayman S or GT-R
If you care about performance numbers -> Z06, ZR1, GT-R
If you care about about price and performance -> Z06
If you care about prestige styling -> 911
If you want it all -> 911 Turbo/GT3/GT2

Honestly I wouldn't take any 911 less than a Turbo. I just think the C2 and C2S kinda scream "I really wish I could have afforded the Turbo but hope you won't notice the difference".

And since I don't have $180k, really want 4 doors, and need 4 seats for kids in the back, I think it's gonna be an F80 M3 for me.
I couldn't disagree more. Have you read the Motortrend Best Driver's car for the last two years (2012/2013)? Which cars won? The 991 S and 991 4S respectively. Considering they were up against the Mclaren, the SLS Black, and many more other higher hp more expensive cars the 911 was still said the be THE BEST, and they are by all measures the benchmark yet again in an EVEN greater way. Then MT said well, what if the C7 Vette and F12 went again the 991 4S? 991 4S still won out in the comparo too, and to boot, it was an AWD version of the 911 beating out a field of RWD cars. That says something too. Sorry, but I don't think anyone buying a 120-130/140 991S/4S could say I couldn't afford a turbo. The turbo and NA versions of the 911 are VERY different. I have plenty of experience in owning and driving both.
Flat out, the 991 continues to be the benchmark for which ALL other sports cars are measured and the 991 is the biggest game changer the world has ever seen, and the best all around car money can buy. The 991 GT3 just was also voted Car of The Year, and if you look back at COTY winners, more than half since their inception have been won by 911s. Cars change and evolve but the 911 has stuck to what made is successful and have been doing so in a way no others can match.
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