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      11-03-2013, 03:17 AM   #221
Sedan_Clan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wilbur_the_goose
BMW seems to be a victim of the Euro economy. The new 3-series is back to a 4 cyl, and people are complaining about degradation of quality.

Do you think the E9x or even the E46 was the best BMW will ever produce? Or, are BMW's best days in front of it?
Have you owned an E46 or E9X? Those cars were not without quality issues. Those of us who have been in this BMW game long enough know that neither of those cars were any less problematic than the F-Series.
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      11-04-2013, 06:01 AM   #222
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wilbur_the_goose
BMW seems to be a victim of the Euro economy. The new 3-series is back to a 4 cyl, and people are complaining about degradation of quality.

Do you think the E9x or even the E46 was the best BMW will ever produce? Or, are BMW's best days in front of it?
Have you owned an E46 or E9X? Those cars were not without quality issues. Those of us who have been in this BMW game long enough know that neither of those cars were any less problematic than the F-Series.
very true. in fact is argue that all the big german brands hit a quality rough point around the era of the E46. Audi, MB, VW, and even Porsche. The quality of german cars now in terms of reliability has been much improved from that era. I think it's because they've actually learned how to properly integrate electronics into cars! lol
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      11-04-2013, 06:34 AM   #223
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davesaddiction View Post
C&D, Dec '13

Alterman: "I... came away thinking that the BMW 5-series is now like a Toyota"

535i xDrive finishes 4th in a 4-car comparison. "...seems to have lost touch with what once made us go gaga for the model." Negatives: "Clomping ride, ponderous handling, wooden steering." Sad.

On the CTS 3.6: "The best BMW that BMW doesn't build."
Last year when we were in the USA for the i3 Coupe launch at LAIAS. We sought out an ATS or four to evaluate given recent US auto media reports on the class-leading abilities of the car. We found nothing that stood out . The car has since being tested back in Germany again nothing stood out against the 3er.

Granted that the CTS is not in Germany and I will not be in LA this year , but Tokyo yet so an opinion cannot be given.
But that last quote sums up the problem.

They are to busy wanting a BMW that they forget about originality. They seem too pre-occupied that they need the car to be a BMW that at the end of the day it is a BMW facsimile with nothing to stand but its a better BMW.

And that 5er review is this the pre LCi model? Because the outcome in Europe is very much different with the changes on the LCi. The steering changes being one of the most notable changes.
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      11-04-2013, 07:39 AM   #224
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^Do not agree at all. If I were somehow forced to buy a new car, at this point it would likely be a new caddy... entirely because they have the best driving dynamics at this point. They may be trying to pick up when BMW left behind, but THANK GOODNESS! BMW has forsaken an entire segment, and if someone doesn't pick it up, there would be no enthusiast option. I agree that caddy now isn't doing as good a job as BMW did in the past, sadly. But, this is only their first try. They can get better .

I would have NEVER said that 10 years ago.
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      11-04-2013, 08:09 AM   #225
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I think the M4/3 will show if BMW is leaving "The Ultimate Driving Machine" even more or not, the S55 points in a good direction in my eyes since that engine will combine the best of a natural aspirated and a turbo engine, but of course BMW isn't just about engines or M cars.

The next sign from BMW will be the M2/GC, I think it will be the true new M3 and there's only one generation left before you can forget it forever when it becomes pretty sure FWD. So BMW really should make that last one right and put a damn S55 with ca. 360 PS in it.
A 4cyl. just would be a punch in the face of all the true BMW fans out there who are willing to buy one of these, a N55 successor would be acceptable but not what you would expect from a M car.
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      11-04-2013, 01:16 PM   #226
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Obioban View Post
^Do not agree at all. If I were somehow forced to buy a new car, at this point it would likely be a new caddy... entirely because they have the best driving dynamics at this point. They may be trying to pick up when BMW left behind, but THANK GOODNESS! BMW has forsaken an entire segment, and if someone doesn't pick it up, there would be no enthusiast option. I agree that caddy now isn't doing as good a job as BMW did in the past, sadly. But, this is only their first try. They can get better .

I would have NEVER said that 10 years ago.
^This.
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      11-15-2013, 04:55 AM   #227
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R&T Best Performance Car:

"The 435i is next, with some dark muttering that the old 335i might have been a better choice to carry the roundel into combat."

Read more: http://www.roadandtrack.com/bestof20...#ixzz2khsBJOWq
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      11-15-2013, 06:53 AM   #228
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Since last time I posted in this thread, I bought another e39 M5.

Gotta future proof against a future with no cars I want to own.
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      11-15-2013, 04:04 PM   #229
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LOL, 4 series gran coupe?!?!? Don't we already have that, and we call it "the 328i" ?
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      11-15-2013, 05:29 PM   #230
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LOL, 4 series gran coupe?!?!? Don't we already have that, and we call it "the 328i" ?
Wouldn't you rather have a 328i that was more expensive and less practical?
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      11-15-2013, 06:17 PM   #231
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Wouldn't you rather have a 328i that was more expensive and less practical?
Of course! Silly me, what was I thinking. While we're at it, I'll take that X5 over there. Except give me a sloping roof line in the back. That way, I'll have less headroom for rear passengers and a smaller cargo area in the back. It'll still have a B pillar of course, but we'll call it a 'coupe' anyway. No one will notice.
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      11-15-2013, 11:46 PM   #232
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The fact of the matter is that the N2O/26 is superior to the outgoing Straight six it replaced but what would we do if we had nothing to bitch about.
superior to the L6? just cuz an engine put out more HP doesnt make it superior.
I will never buy a 4c turbo that cost over $40k. as a matter of fact, their are bmw L6s that makes 300+
not saying the n20/26 is not a good engine, but it isnt superior
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      11-16-2013, 11:52 AM   #233
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My f21 is my first BMW but I think this new generation of bimmers are The best ever. All brands are evolving to more effiency in terms of The new global econůmic reallity. This doesn't means cheaper.

In The past, I Really loved some Audi and Mercedes models more than BMW. Now a days I think BMW wins by far in every product line.
In my country The premium segment is lead by Audi, but that's because of The A1, that sells like a soda in a store.
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      11-16-2013, 03:36 PM   #234
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ska325xi View Post
superior to the L6? just cuz an engine put out more HP doesnt make it superior.
I will never buy a 4c turbo that cost over $40k. as a matter of fact, their are bmw L6s that makes 300+
not saying the n20/26 is not a good engine, but it isnt superior
What does a modified 300hp NA engine have to do with anything? That is a bad side of the debate to be on, as you know-mod for mod, FI engines show larger gains than NA.
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      11-16-2013, 04:50 PM   #235
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The problem I see is three fold. First, the 335i is being priced the same as an S5 which has full M treatment, active and mechanical differentials, etc. $57k for an S5 is acceptable. $57k for a 335i is not remotely OK. It should be at least $10k cheaper.

Second, I rented a 328i from Hertz in Austin. It had zero options. I used to own a 2006 e90 325i sport package. The nav in this car was pretty unusable - you need a phone to get directions to go anywhere. The voice control is horrible. The engine sounded like a Ford Ecoboost, but it was very responsive in traffic. The electric atari stick automatic transmission lever is a worthless skeuomorph and shouldn't even be there taking up space. At the end of the week I appreciated it for what it was. It did feel good and smug to have the BMW badge again. I'm not sure anyone else was impressed, frankly. I can't imagine how downmarket a 320i would be.

Third, the M5 and M6 present an unattainble gap in the BMW lineup. They are literally twice as expensive as a high end 3 series. They are super nice but they are not exactly sports cars. They are for the 7 series "sport" crowd. You can cart one around a track but they're not great.

The entire brand is riding on the M3 and M2. The M135i is an unbelievably brilliant track car. All I ever see is its taillights no matter who is driving it because it's so damn nimble, then it just pulls away with its overboost.

I'm hoping that "F80" and "F30" truly do mean that an M3 is nothing like the current 3 series.
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      11-16-2013, 05:32 PM   #236
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What I can tell you is that my 2006 330i with 135,000 on the ticker is aging quite well. The car is simply put together very very well, and it's a jack of all trades- decent gas mpg, fun to drive every day (after all these years), fun at the track, and reliable.

My aunt's e34 528i sport (black/tan leather, 5 sp drool...) had 260,000 miles when she sold it. Great car that didn't see cca type maintenance! haha..

I wouldn't expect the new cars to hold up any worse, but like all BMWs they will have their weak spots- direct inj which will require walnut shell blasting every 60k or whatever, and a whole slew of elec gizmos that will be pricey to fix. That's why when I got my e90 I wanted as few options as possible... I didn't want to shell out $$$$ to fix a navigation system years down the line that I never wanted or needed in the first place. Same goes for ridiculous gimmicks like park distance sensors and back up monitors... really??! It's not a large vehicle.

I'd love to drive a new 328i M sport with a stick, fortunately my dealer hasn't stocked one yet. I'm sure if I took it for a ride I would be an owner.. after all the feel of the wheel makes the deal
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      11-16-2013, 06:32 PM   #237
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StealYourFace View Post
I'm sure if I took it for a ride I would be an owner.. after all the feel of the wheel makes the deal
Except when the wheel has no feel...
Like modern bmw's with eps
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      11-17-2013, 12:06 AM   #238
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^^^ True Obioban... I'm hoping that if the F30 is really as soulless as people make it to be that the new 235i M sport (or better yet a 228i m sprt with it's shorter gears and an lsd stuck in there, and less weight over the nose) will bring back that feel. It's just a tad bigger than an e36, but again has eps. Remains to be seen... or rather felt.
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      11-17-2013, 07:24 AM   #239
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^Do not agree at all. If I were somehow forced to buy a new car, at this point it would likely be a new caddy... entirely because they have the best driving dynamics at this point. They may be trying to pick up when BMW left behind, but THANK GOODNESS! BMW has forsaken an entire segment, and if someone doesn't pick it up, there would be no enthusiast option. I agree that caddy now isn't doing as good a job as BMW did in the past, sadly. But, this is only their first try. They can get better .

I would have NEVER said that 10 years ago.
I agree with your sentiments about Cadillac as well, but I'm not in total agreement with the last statement (in bold). I've been around BMWs for the better part of 35 years and have had a 3-Series as a DD for 25 years. I recently spent a week each in 2012 335i F30 and six days later a week in a 2013 ATS 2.0T. I found the ATS to be more the BMW than the BMW. Other than the crappy CUE system in the Cadillac (I'd get it without one anyway), I think the car hits the mark as high-quality sports sedan with excellent road manners and driving dynamics. I'd match the ATS up to any 3-Series from the E30 on up to the E90. From all early reports on the 3-gen CTS, Cadillac has made an excellent car. Let's see where Caddy goes with the 2nd-gen ATS. If BMW keeps on the path with the 3-Series starting with the F30, then for people who actually want a sports sedan (i.e. not a car with a Roundel on the hood) then Cadillac may become the bench mark.

If you take a realistic view of the ATS and F30, and compare models in the same price range, a ATS 2.0T with the manual transmission is the same price range as the F30 320i with a sport package. I've driven both, the ATS is the better car.
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      11-18-2013, 12:23 PM   #240
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Thoughts from a new BMW owner. I jumped at the chance to grab a 08 328XI from a good friend and co-worker. 73k on odo with 100k extended warranty for just about 15k (remainder of his payments; divorce and motorcycle to choose between).

My totally unbiased (I've only had it for like a month) opinion:

Fit and quality of finish: Subpar for what I would expect from BMW. More in line with expectations for a mainstream 25k Chevy, Ford, or vanilla Jap car. I do believe some of the parts for the 3 series are coming from China and have for years.

Engine: Mine is the I6 and its pretty damn perfect for what I need. Enough juice to have some fun but smooth and good enough gas mileage for a DD. I have confidence in it lasting.

Fun: Totally enjoy driving it and not because its new or and not because its a BMW. It is, after all a 15k car not like a 5, 7, or M. I'm grounded about that. The car just makes you want to drive another few miles.

Future: I keep seeing all this investment into smaller displacments and turbos. Not something I would drop the coin on new. No faith in turbo, especially air cooled. Liquid cooled gives me a better security blanket but that is just me.

IMHO at this point Lexus has em beat in the quality of fit and finish but IMHO just not sexy enough exterior designs to get me to cough up 50k or more. Funny I just said that, my wife is in a 48k Armada. Love it!!! But looks like a rolling brick.
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      11-27-2013, 03:13 PM   #241
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A Bob Lutz article, not a BMW one, but his quote on the current state of BMW made me laugh:

And today, as BMW "over-proliferates its product line with a whole bunch of answers to questions nobody asked," Lutz can pretend not to be surprised, as he remembers the time when he nearly saw BMW "coming within a hair of building Mercedes-Benzes with BMW badges on them."

Read more: http://www.autoweek.com/article/2013...#ixzz2lsXOsCAJ
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      11-27-2013, 04:07 PM   #242
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Quote:
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A Bob Lutz article, not a BMW one, but his quote on the current state of BMW made me laugh:

And today, as BMW "over-proliferates its product line with a whole bunch of answers to questions nobody asked," Lutz can pretend not to be surprised, as he remembers the time when he nearly saw BMW "coming within a hair of building Mercedes-Benzes with BMW badges on them."

Read more: http://www.autoweek.com/article/2013...#ixzz2lsXOsCAJ
Great link!




"We've got the ideal customers!" Lutz shouted. "We've got the young guys on the way up! These midlevel executives, who are gonna be CEOs sometime -- they're not gonna say, 'well now that I'm a CEO, I'm gonna get a Mercedes.' They're gonna stay with BMW."

I would love to see a chart of the average age of a first time BMW owner over time. I am willing to bet my lunch money that it has shot up over the past two years.
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