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      06-21-2013, 05:19 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
Of course.

On the other hand, your assumptions are off base.

The current E63 wagon weighs 4510 pounds (according to Motor Trend), and it is EPA rated at 15/23, losing 1 mpg to the sedan on both fronts. At a guess, the AWD 2014 sedan will come in at about the same mileage as the current wagon because of AWD, although it'll weigh 100-150 pounds less.

Both mileage numbers are pretty respectable especially if compared to the current M3.

The car costs more than an M3, but so what? It's a luxury sedan that just happens to go like a striped ape. You know. Power ash trays, quiet as a tomb at cruise, then all hell breaks loose when you punch it, and your eyeballs shorten up by a diopter or two.

So, fuel costs are down, insurance will be up due to MSRP differences, maintenance no different from other Benzes. What's the beef?

According to Car & Driver, the vehicle also just happens to be a sharper handler than the M5, although I must say I have high hopes for the new competition package about to become available on the Bimmer.

Bruce
I think you missed my point. I meant why buy any M or AMG sedan compared the more entry level 5 series or E class, not compared to the older AMG E class. You can get the same luxury interior while saving a lot of money. My point is why does anyone need 500-600 hp just to drive to the store and buy groceries? Even race cars don't come with that much power. For a road car, 300-400 hp is really all you need. Anymore than that is overkill.
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      06-21-2013, 06:03 PM   #90
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If I didn't go out and drive my car on a track or enjoy going out for fun drives, I would probably just get a regular 328i/335i or equivalent. It's plenty fine for every day use.

The huge 500-600 hp AMG/M sedans/wagons/SUVs are pretty pointless as you'd never be able to take it to the limit on a public road and not very fun to drive on a track day.
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      06-21-2013, 07:33 PM   #91
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Wrong enemy

I thought C63 AMG was our enemy
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      06-26-2013, 12:38 AM   #92
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Great car. Visually it's about attractive as a jar of mayonnaise.
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      06-26-2013, 01:56 AM   #93
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Car still looks like shit.
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      06-26-2013, 01:57 AM   #94
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I love u guys! You guys crack me the fox up
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      06-26-2013, 12:55 PM   #95
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What a monster....

Don't pull next to one on a red light for sure
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      08-29-2013, 02:12 AM   #96
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It can do it but its designed audience doesn't do it.
I do it!
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      08-29-2013, 10:13 AM   #97
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I do it!
nice. met a guy yesterday that is building a 190e i believe as a dedicated track car.
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      08-29-2013, 01:06 PM   #98
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Everyone is like its so ugly.... but looks are very subjective. Its was a fast as hell. Drove my friend's wife's car and it was crazy fast of the line an nimble as well

I'm not saying is better than an m3 on the ring but I'm sure its good enough on the track. We are not F1 race car drivers that are out to win the trophy prize. Mostly everyone on this forums tracks for their pleasure. You are all just pissed that this "ugly" car is a fucking beast in comparison to the m3 which handles great.
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      08-31-2013, 11:33 AM   #99
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If i say C63 is faster then m3 at the track, you must LOL. But the truth is C63 has faster lap time in nurburgring then the e92 m3. So c63 handles like sh*t? I dont think so. I wont say c63 handles better then the m3 but at least not that bad
From what I recall reading in track tests, the C63 has more acceleration coming out of curves than the M3 but the M3 makes up for almost all of that with better agility and balance but not not quite all of it. If the S65 had only been a little more torquey, it would have eaten the C63. The M3 is more fun than the C63.
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      09-02-2013, 12:23 AM   #100
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Everyone is like its so ugly.... but looks are very subjective. Its was a fast as hell. Drove my friend's wife's car and it was crazy fast of the line an nimble as well

I'm not saying is better than an m3 on the ring but I'm sure its good enough on the track. We are not F1 race car drivers that are out to win the trophy prize. Mostly everyone on this forums tracks for their pleasure. You are all just pissed that this "ugly" car is a fucking beast in comparison to the m3 which handles great.



haha. well said. Some M owners are delusional. It's unreal.
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      09-02-2013, 12:24 AM   #101
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From what I recall reading in track tests, the C63 has more acceleration coming out of curves than the M3 but the M3 makes up for almost all of that with better agility and balance but not not quite all of it. If the S65 had only been a little more torquey, it would have eaten the C63. The M3 is more fun than the C63.



Says you..............
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      09-02-2013, 05:30 AM   #102
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I'm in the minority when I say I like this one better than the previous one. Still, I think the E55 is the best E class. Anyway, Merc seems to have done a good job on this one. They kept their straight line performance and gained a lot more stability on turns. I guess, they had to with that much power and the amount of not-so-great drivers (myself included lol) on the streets. Watch out BMW, Merc is stepping up on their handling game but I'm not very sure on the pure driving feel. Getting 16MPG/24MPG on a TT 5.5 V8 is GREAT!

I'm actually disappointed with the interior. It wasn't very much of a departure (in quality and overall beauty) from the previous generation.
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      09-02-2013, 05:48 AM   #103
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Says you..............
no, actually all these words came from that track comparison review including the M3 being more fun. I have seen that argument again and again..
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      09-02-2013, 08:39 AM   #104
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Says you..............
no, actually all these words came from that track comparison review including the M3 being more fun. I have seen that argument again and again..
When Top Gear's Stig drove the C63 against the M3 on a track on the show (Spain I believe), the M3 topped the C63 by almost 10 seconds. The reason given was that the traction control in the C63 was so bad, you had to turn it off, but once you did, it simply had too much power and not enough balance to get through the corners neatly. The M3 OTOH, was flawless throughout and easily won. The C63 also completely chewed up its tires in only a few laps... Another point for the M3.
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      09-05-2013, 12:47 AM   #105
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pfft.. I've never once seen a AMG at a hpde track near me... not even once! ..
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      09-05-2013, 05:33 PM   #106
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no, actually all these words came from that track comparison review including the M3 being more fun. I have seen that argument again and again..


whatever the case may be, or (opinion), 400lbs of torque is FUN.

Both cars are fun, however.
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      09-05-2013, 06:05 PM   #107
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whatever the case may be, or (opinion), 400lbs of torque is FUN.

Both cars are fun, however.
Torque does not make an engine worth buying alone. FI is nothing new; we've been here before. FI and its byproduct torque emerges during times of recession and high fuel costs; the relative hedonism of high-revving NA re-emerges when people want a superlative engine. Its easy to make big power but there is an art to doing it in such a way where the engine sings a song to you, has a certain feeling and creates an entire experience each time you drive that a regular brute turbo motor simply lacks and will never have.
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      09-05-2013, 06:44 PM   #108
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It's fast, but its UGLY...
And since when was E63 AMG our enemy? It's a different type of a car with heavier price tag.
I would get a 991S or GT-R before this
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      09-05-2013, 10:34 PM   #109
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I stand by my statement. You absolutely can have just as much fun in a 328i with sneakers and pads as you can in an M3 with sneakers and pads. Of course, you won't be getting through a lap nearly as quickly, but who cares.

And by the way, if you know how to go fast, the M3 is an understeering pig on track. Maybe the best all-around compromise car for the street ever built, but on track, not so much.

If you disagree with this, either you don't have track experience in the car or you don't have enough track experience to actually go fast.

Bruce

PS - The most fun track car I ever ran was my '98 Neon. Was it as fast as the '95 M3 I ran back then? Hardly. But one track day in my Neon (bought originally as a Winter car in New England) and I never ran the M3 again.

Such a silly comment, all you have to do is run a different set of tires and increase a little bit of camber and the understeer would be cured. Do you really understand how to go fast though?


One thing I have to say in my opinion, is that the new E class looks much better in person then in pictures. When I first saw the pictures on the web, I thought it was downright ugly because of the fish like, "hyundai" front end. But after I've seen the E350 on the road, it looks quite incredible.

As for track performance, I'm pretty sure this would destroy the M3 in obviously straight line speed and corner exit speed. The only potential category I can see the M3 beating the E63 is Turn Entry speed and braking.

I also think AMG did a very smart move with the all wheel drive performance car. Some will argue that a true performance car is not supposed to be AWD but we aren't looking for a race car here. Think about it, what high performance car can we buy today, that can perform exceptionally in inclement weather? One car that came in mind is the RS4, but that is discontinued. The M cars are all AWD.
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      09-06-2013, 10:53 AM   #110
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Such a silly comment, all you have to do is run a different set of tires and increase a little bit of camber and the understeer would be cured. Do you really understand how to go fast though?...
Straight answer to a straight question - no.

But I used to.

I spent 14 seasons as a track junky at HPDEs, first as a student, then as an instructor. Quit at the end of the '09 season, which means that I am now covered in rust, as I never advertently* go over about eight tenths on the street.

As you may (or may not) know, track events are stupendously different from "high performance" street driving, especially after you've gotten a few track days under your helmet.

As to your assertion that the understeer would be cured via track sneakers and a little bit of extra camber, track buddies that I still keep in touch with tell me that understeer actually increases with sticky rubber mounted on these cars. In addition, extra camber would tend to reduce that tendency to some degree, but that ain't how they ship 'em, because of the tire wear issues.

Check the Car & Driver "Best Handling Car in America for under $100,000" article, where the 2011 M3 placed mid-pack. The fact that the Bimmer was in that group of cars is a testament to how good it actually is, but even C & D (who have claimed that the current M3 is the best overall car in the world) said it persistently understeered on track. They said that even a sharp stab at the brakes in a corner couldn't cure that problem.

Do some research.

Bruce

*Yeah I know this is not a word, but "inadvertently" is, so this should be as well.
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