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      09-08-2007, 03:21 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by K3N R3D View Post
That Cayman looks awesome in that pic
That's a special edition - costs more than the M3 in Germany...

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      09-08-2007, 03:33 PM   #46
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What makes it special. Does it have increased hp and Tq? Whats the name of it so I can look it up? It really looks good.
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      09-08-2007, 03:37 PM   #47
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It's called "Porsche Design Edition 1". Here's the Porsche web special:
http://www.porsche.com/microsite/cayman-pd/usa.aspx

It has no performance upgrades I think (unless the TT wheels can be called so).

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      09-08-2007, 03:38 PM   #48
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It's called "Porsche Design Edition 1". Here's the Porsche web special:
http://www.porsche.com/microsite/cayman-pd/usa.aspx

It has no performance upgrades I think (unless the TT wheels can be called so).

Best regards, south
Thanx
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      09-08-2007, 08:37 PM   #49
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Let down

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Originally Posted by JEllis View Post
I really could never own a performance car that still uses Leaf Springs so the Vette is out for me.
Come on Jason you can do better than that. I expect much better from you!

The purpose of any spring in a car is to simply provide a spring constant and restorative force. It is another matter as to the specifics that are required for a particular design, flat rate, rising rate, falling rate, long travel, short travel, etc. However, that which can be accomplished in the given space constraints, with the least mass and suitable durability is a winner. Just because many low-tech and heavy transport designs utilize leaf springs says ZIP about how good the design can be. You do know that in the Vette the leafs have zero to do with positioning the wheel - it does have a trick multi link aluminum set up for that!

Specific advantages of this particular design:

-Light weight (one leaf is lighter than two coil springs), partly because the spring is a composite material - pretty high tech!
-Lower position of leaf contributes to a lower CoG
-Leaf is said to never sag nor wear

Last but not least do you thing the Vette could get the lap times and overall handling prowess it gets with a low tech or poor performing suspension?

All that being said I wouldn't own one either
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      09-08-2007, 09:04 PM   #50
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Swamp, I don't know much about the leaf spring set-up: does a single spring run wheel to wheel, and how well do the clamps isolate vibrations from the other side?
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      09-08-2007, 09:41 PM   #51
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Garrett...I don't know what the new m3's like cause I haven't driven one, but let me say this about the P car-GET IT. You won't be disappointed...The steering, chassis, clutch/shifter, handling, brakes, sound is just incredible. It's a damn shame that Porsche doesn't put out a 400hp version. First of all I don't know wtf Porsche is thinking about by not letting the Cayman and the Boxster for that matter be what they really ought to be. First of all, they're two seaters while the 997's are four (two child seats in the back)...on that alone some people wouldn't buy the cayman imo.
Aye,

Thats why I might wait for the DFI version in MY2010. The Cayman is a remarkable car, perfect ergonomics, balance and looks. It just lacks a tad too much torque.

I don't like the way it's geared in 6th, because i plan on using it (or the M3) as a Grand Touring car. Weekend trips to tracks and venues for "meet & greets". As it stand now the Cayman S cruises at 80mph @ 3,500rpm's. That might get annoying after 3+ hours of driving. Specially when PAG refuses to but decent audio systems in their sportcars.

Porsche has purposely kept the Cayman down because they don't want it encrouching into their 911s territory. The 911 is Iconic and they don't want it's baby brother stepping on it's toes.... even though it can out handle it.

My guess is that when they move to DFI technology, they will put more efficiency(mpg) into the Caymans engine instead of performance. Leaving the 911 with the real gains in performance. Though, i've considered buying a Cayman in a few months and just (over the years) upgrade/mod it for more performance!

Though, I'd just assume wait for the DFi engine where I think PAG will add about 25 more HP and Torque! (ie: 320hp/276ft-lb tq). And hoping they will refine the stereo and offer more standard features!








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      09-08-2007, 09:59 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Garrett View Post
Aye,

Thats why I might wait for the DFI version in MY2010. The Cayman is a remarkable car, perfect ergonomics, balance and looks. It just lacks a tad too much torque.

I don't like the way it's geared in 6th, because i plan on using it (or the M3) as a Grand Touring car. Weekend trips to tracks and venues for "meet & greets". As it stand now the Cayman S cruises at 80mph @ 3,500rpm's. That might get annoying after 3+ hours of driving. Specially when PAG refuses to but decent audio systems in their sportcars.

Porsche has purposely kept the Cayman down because they don't want it encrouching into their 911s territory. The 911 is Iconic and they don't want it's baby brother stepping on it's toes.... even though it can out handle it.

My guess is that when they move to DFI technology, they will put more efficiency(mpg) into the Caymans engine instead of performance. Leaving the 911 with the real gains in performance. Though, i've considered buying a Cayman in a few months and just (over the years) upgrade/mod it for more performance!

Though, I'd just assume wait for the DFi engine where I think PAG will add about 25 more HP and Torque! (ie: 320hp/276ft-lb tq). And hoping they will refine the stereo and offer more standard features!








-Garrett
IMO, the Porsche Design Edition is a joke. It's basically all fluff at handsome Porsche price. The only good news about it is it usually means Porsche is getting ready for a facelift. The Design Edition is a way to try and fluff up lagging sales near the end of a model run. IMO, the Cayman will maybe get a 20 or so hp bump and improved mileage with DFI. Though Porsche is the king of highway robbery, they usually don't bump up prices drastically with facelifts.
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      09-08-2007, 10:39 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by BruceWain View Post
I think you are giving AUDI way to much credit...
Which to me puts your motives in question...... but whatever.
Audi finally (kinda) got something right.


At this point very few, (press excluded) have actually driven the New M3 and the ones who have LOVE it. The so called "steering issue" is NOT an issue for them or Car and Driver for that matter. Search the forum most recent if you haven't read it already.

Some of you are like little girls, you believe anything the man with the bag of candy and a black van says.

Test drive the thing yourself before you condem the thing.
How hard is that ?
I love when people respond with whatevers, there is just no good come back for that, right? Anyway, maybe you are right and I am giving Audi too much credit. But do you think they have closed the gap with their German competitors just a tiny bit the last few years? I guess my questionable motives are that I would have the nerve to question your M division. I have no qualms about buying a Kia if they make the best performance car for the money, none. I have alway been enamored with BMW because they have made the best all around sports car for the money. And yes, all the previous M3's are sports car. In your book, can a sports car have "numb" steering? In my book, that is a deal killer. Just too many cars out there with better steering to go ahead spend 70 k for "feeless" steering. I am confident BMW will fix the steering issue but how quickly will depend on how many enthusiast like myself are willing to speak out with our pocket books or lack there of. Thankfully, this very thing is happening with the M5/M6 as they collect dust on dealers lots. The end results will be a superior and better valued M5/ M6, sooner than BMW was hoping for. Remember when BMW made an earlier than usual facelift for the 7 series cause no one liked the looks but more importantly, no one was buying it. You mention those few who have driven the M3, and of course the objective auto press and journalist must be excluded, love the M3, Great point and what a surprise. Ya, and heres my shocker: The Pope loves the Catholic Church. Now lets hope BMW is willing to listen to the reviews of poor steering feel and fixes it. Quit rationalizing and giving BMW excuses not to.

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      09-09-2007, 09:10 AM   #54
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Quote:
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Can you show me a published reference where a BMW AG or BMW NA representative says we aren't getting any CSL models in the future.

-Adam
No. But since we are talking only about the M3 CSL, such a reference would not really be required, correct?

Scott26 has confirmed no CSL. That does not make it true, but it is strong liklihood. Overwhelmingly, among members of the enthusiast community, especially the BMW community, the M3 community, and this forum, the accepted reality is that the E92 M3 CSL will not be sold stateside.
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      09-09-2007, 09:16 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by Steved View Post
I will have a few things to say on this once the next issue of EVO is published in 10 days time. If you remember I recently compared the E92 M3 over a 3 day grouptest with every other major M-car of the past 20 years.

I think it's a worthwhile debate because when you do get the chance to compare the various generations of M-car there are a few concerns that do emerge. Unsurprisingly the more commercial mindset of M-division is one of those concerns.

It all boils down to what you define as being the remit of M-Division.
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I can't tell you how beneficial it is to have a BMW enthusiast like yourself provide us with objective feed back about the M3. Can't wait for the EVO issue.
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      09-09-2007, 09:52 AM   #56
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I love when people respond with whatevers, there is just no good come back for that, right? Anyway, maybe you are right and I am giving Audi too much credit. But do you think they have closed the gap with their German competitors just a tiny bit the last few years? I guess my questionable motives are that I would have the nerve to question your M division. I have no qualms about buying a Kia if they make the best performance car for the money, none. I have alway been enamored with BMW because they have made the best all around sports car for the money. And yes, all the previous M3's are sports car. In your book, can a sports car have "numb" steering? In my book, that is a deal killer. Just too many cars out there with better steering to go ahead spend 70 k for "feeless" steering. I am confident BMW will fix the steering issue but how quickly will depend on how many enthusiast like myself are willing to speak out with our pocket books or lack there of. Thankfully, this very thing is happening with the M5/M6 as they collect dust on dealers lots. The end results will be a superior and better valued M5/ M6, sooner than BMW was hoping for. Remember when BMW made an earlier than usual facelift for the 7 series cause no one liked the looks but more importantly, no one was buying it. You mention those few who have driven the M3, and of course the objective auto press and journalist must be excluded, love the M3, Great point and what a surprise. Ya, and heres my shocker: The Pope loves the Catholic Church. Now lets hope BMW is willing to listen to the reviews of poor steering feel and fixes it. Quit rationalizing and giving BMW excuses not to.





So now your questionable motives are clear...... but "whatever".
No come back desired or needed, either you choose to or you don't, it's a forum. Audi has made improvements, that goes without saying but how does that question the M division ?
First. I don't have a "book".
Second. Are you sure the steering on the New M3 is numb or is that what you heard/read ?
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=82701
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=82428
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=82627

These are "M DIVISION" consumers who "[b]speak out with our pocket books[b]".
Don't forget that I also said Car and Driver the "the objective auto press and journalist" you mentioned.
Write whatever you want to in your "book". Just make sure you drive the car first so that you know what you are writing.
Don't think that the M5/6 are the only ones sitting on the lots. I can get to at least 3 RS4's and countless AMG models and that's just here in Jersey.
How many RS4's did Audi make ?

Do you know what the 4 circles on the front of every Audi means ?
It represents the 4 flippin' losers(0) that come to the M3 forum to put down a car they haven't driven, seen, smelled, tasted or heard.

Peace Monkey !
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      09-09-2007, 09:55 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ruff View Post
And yes, all the previous M3's are sports car. In your book, can a sports car have "numb" steering? In my book, that is a deal killer. Just too many cars out there with better steering to go ahead spend 70 k for "feeless" steering. I am confident BMW will fix the steering issue but how quickly will depend on how many enthusiast like myself are willing to speak out with our pocket books or lack there of.
The steering issue may not be an issue at all. Both Dave Farnsworth and Steve Dinan wrote reviews in Roundel, and neither mentioned numbness at all. Both reviews were glowing. Farnsworth owned the first E36 M3 in the US, reviewed the E46 M3 during its launch event and has tested the Dinan S3 M3 so he sorta knows how they feel. Dinan doesn't need introduction. He loved the car, saying "The new M3 is simply the best combination of BMW handling and ride to date."

Bimmer sent two drivers as well with one reporting "Even more important than the balance is the amount of information coming through the steering wheel and the rather firm seat, letting me know exactly what's happening where the rubber meets the road. The steering, in particular is a revelation in feelsomeness."

When reading reviews of the E92 M3 you cannot assume all the test cars were the same - they're not. The reviewers rarely mention what EDC, engine map, and Servotronic settings they used. In fact, I would venture to guess that most didn't know what the Servotronic setting was when they were driving. Even those that complained about numbness made no mention of whether the Normal vs. Sport settings had any effect. I also suspect that the suppleness of the suspension is a factor in some of the reviews. If the suspension absorbs harshness without drama, why should the steering wheel report drama?

Even if there is numbness (and I doubt it) the reviews to date have consistently noted there is no hint of understeer except when the pushed to the limit. I'll trade off some numbness for neutrality myself.
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      09-09-2007, 09:58 AM   #58
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Roundel is a BMW magazine, isn't it? How unbiased are they allowed to be?

Best regards, south
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      09-09-2007, 09:58 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
No. But since we are talking only about the M3 CSL, such a reference would not really be required, correct?

Scott26 has confirmed no CSL. That does not make it true, but it is strong liklihood. Overwhelmingly, among members of the enthusiast community, especially the BMW community, the M3 community, and this forum, the accepted reality is that the E92 M3 CSL will not be sold stateside.
Just because you think something it doesn't make it "an accepted reality" Furthermore, even if that is the widespread belief here it doesn't change the fact that it is essentially baseless.

-Adam
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      09-09-2007, 10:16 AM   #60
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So now your questionable motives are clear...... but "whatever".
No come back desired or needed, either you choose to or you don't, it's a forum. Audi has made improvements, that goes without saying but how does that question the M division ?
First. I don't have a "book".
Second. Are you sure the steering on the New M3 is numb or is that what you heard/read ?
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=82701
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=82428
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=82627

These are "M DIVISION" consumers who "[b]speak out with our pocket books[b]".
Don't forget that I also said Car and Driver the "the objective auto press and journalist" you mentioned.
Write whatever you want to in your "book". Just make sure you drive the car first so that you know what you are writing.
Don't think that the M5/6 are the only ones sitting on the lots. I can get to at least 3 RS4's and countless AMG models and that's just here in Jersey.
How many RS4's did Audi make ?

Do you know what the 4 circles on the front of every Audi means ?
It represents the 4 flippin' losers(0) that come to the M3 forum to put down a car they haven't driven, seen, smelled, tasted or heard.

Peace Monkey !
I agree, Audi's are for losers like me who don't seem to get it that BMW and only BMW is the ultimate driving machine. I promise to change my ill advised ways and start worshiping the Roundel, now if I can find the time. By the way, I am pleased to hear you singing praises of the E92 M3 becuase you yourself have obviously driven it, seen it, smelled it, and heard it. There really must not be any steering issues. It was all a plot.
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      09-09-2007, 10:22 AM   #61
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Come on Jason you can do better than that. I expect much better from you!

The purpose of any spring in a car is to simply provide a spring constant and restorative force. It is another matter as to the specifics that are required for a particular design, flat rate, rising rate, falling rate, long travel, short travel, etc. However, that which can be accomplished in the given space constraints, with the least mass and suitable durability is a winner. Just because many low-tech and heavy transport designs utilize leaf springs says ZIP about how good the design can be. You do know that in the Vette the leafs have zero to do with positioning the wheel - it does have a trick multi link aluminum set up for that!

Specific advantages of this particular design:

-Light weight (one leaf is lighter than two coil springs), partly because the spring is a composite material - pretty high tech!
-Lower position of leaf contributes to a lower CoG
-Leaf is said to never sag nor wear

Last but not least do you thing the Vette could get the lap times and overall handling prowess it gets with a low tech or poor performing suspension?

All that being said I wouldn't own one either
Yeah yeah yeah all true. Makes you wonder why we all get wrapped around the axle about things like single piston brakes on the M3 when they get the job done just fine...well according who you talk to.

Jason
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      09-09-2007, 10:24 AM   #62
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Quote:
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Roundel is a BMW magazine, isn't it? How unbiased are they allowed to be?

Best regards, south

Roundel is not owned or controlled by BMW, but certainly they are all BMW fans and have hotlines to BMW NA and as a result you have to assume a little biased. But on the flip side, they know BMWs, specially M3s, and it seems that virtually all of them own an M3 or three. Recent competitive reviews have fairly consistently sent the message "the competition is catching up". Dinan is a sporadic contributor to Roundel but makes a living tuning BMWs so he has an excellent feel for their dynamics. Both reviewers are track junkies.
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      09-09-2007, 10:26 AM   #63
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Roundel is not owned or controlled by BMW, but certainly they are all BMW fans and have hotlines to BMW NA and as a result you have to assume a little biased. But on the flip side, they know BMWs, specially M3s, and it seems that virtually all of them own an M3 or three. Recent competitive reviews have fairly consistently sent the message "the competition is catching up". Dinan is a sporadic contributor to Roundel but makes a living tuning BMWs so he has an excellent feel for their dynamics. Both reviewers are track junkies.
Thanks for the insight. Little biased is OK, like we all...

Best regards, south
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      09-09-2007, 11:09 AM   #64
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Just because you think something it doesn't make it "an accepted reality" Furthermore, even if that is the widespread belief here it doesn't change the fact that it is essentially baseless.

-Adam
That it is an accepted reality to others has nothing to do with my thinking it to be so. It is rather more tied to their trust in Scott26. Your definition of "baseless" differs from mine since I think the statement from Scott26 is itself some basis. It is certainly one possible reality and worthy of being discussed in that context. It is, in fact, a reality that the OP appears to embrace at this point, and even the person whose post I responded to has not made an effort to debate it with me in nearly the fierce manner you seem to want to. Well, I certainly won't argue it any further with you. You can happily have this one. You are right - nothing is known for certain yet.

One note though: even if the car is confirmed not to come here, you can bet that the CSL card will continue to get played ad nauseum. It happened (and still does) with the e46. Probably did with the E36 too.
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      09-09-2007, 11:27 AM   #65
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Thanks for the insight. Little biased is OK, like we all...

Best regards, south
I couldn't agree more. Roundel should be a bit biased, they do call themselves Roundel. Overall, I think Roudel strikes a fine balance between bias and objectivity given their mission.
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      09-09-2007, 12:53 PM   #66
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I agree, Audi's are for losers like me who don't seem to get it that BMW and only BMW is the ultimate driving machine..
I didn't say that but if you feel that way ......... OK !

Quote:
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By the way, I am pleased to hear you singing praises of the E92 M3 becuase you yourself have obviously driven it, seen it, smelled it, and heard it. There really must not be any steering issues. It was all a plot.
YOU didn't HEAR me say anything.
However if you go back and READ, you will find that my stance is and has always been:
DRIVE IT YOURSELF AND DECIDE YOURSELF.

Then, if you do not like the drive don't buy the car.
I can't make it anymore clear then that.

IMO your thread is premature.
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