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      09-07-2007, 12:17 PM   #23
JEllis
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Quote:
Would you own a performance car with "numb steering"?
Ruff,

To make this short I will say that I wouldnt own a performance car that I didnt enjoy driving. Whatever it is that I enjoy in car is probably something I couldnt put into words so I wont try. Like I stated earlier, plenty of people hated, and I mean hated, what BMW did with the M3 when the E36 M came out. Then BMW made it worse for us Americans and didnt give us the Euro engine. But, it still won plenty of praise. And you know what, it puts a smile on my face everytime I drive it. So, personally I think the journalists have no idea what I like in a performance car nor the masses. So, when I pick mine up in April I will let you know if I decide to keep it or not. But, I bet you I will love it. I havnt lost my faith in M yet....

Jason
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      09-07-2007, 12:28 PM   #24
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And again, the CSL card is played. This is not an attainable car in the US. Its basically irrelevant. Awesome, but irrelevant.
Not if you live in Europe.

Anyways, the OP was about "M" cars in general and where it's all going.

If Ruff had made it a specific regional post like "what does BMW offer in the U.S. that is more track orientated than the current M3"- than any mention of the CSL would indeed have been irrelevant.....
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      09-07-2007, 12:30 PM   #25
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Not if you live in Europe.

Anyways, the OP was about "M" cars in general and where it's all going.

If Ruff had made it a specific regional post like "what does BMW offer in the U.S. that is more track orientated than the current M3"- than any mention of the CSL would indeed have been irrelevant.....

Ok true, but lets not forget that Utah is indeed in the US.
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      09-07-2007, 01:33 PM   #26
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Ruff,

To make this short I will say that I wouldnt own a performance car that I didnt enjoy driving. Whatever it is that I enjoy in car is probably something I couldnt put into words so I wont try. Like I stated earlier, plenty of people hated, and I mean hated, what BMW did with the M3 when the E36 M came out. Then BMW made it worse for us Americans and didnt give us the Euro engine. But, it still won plenty of praise. And you know what, it puts a smile on my face everytime I drive it. So, personally I think the journalists have no idea what I like in a performance car nor the masses. So, when I pick mine up in April I will let you know if I decide to keep it or not. But, I bet you I will love it. I havnt lost my faith in M yet....

Jason
It's spirited posts like this that bolsters my hopes in M as well.
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      09-07-2007, 01:38 PM   #27
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Ok true, but lets not forget that Utah is indeed in the US.
You must think I am only kidding about moving to Garching, north of Munich.
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      09-07-2007, 01:51 PM   #28
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I could care less that it is a bit softer or whatever, now I've finally seen one. I'm in love all over again.
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      09-07-2007, 02:07 PM   #29
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You must think I am only kidding about moving to Garching, north of Munich.
I actually didn't have an opinion on that one way or the other since I had no idea. I guess I didn't get the memo.
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      09-07-2007, 02:09 PM   #30
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Ok true, but lets not forget that Utah is indeed in the US.
Yeah, the home of "Big Love."

Where else can each of your "wives" drive a BMW........lol
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      09-07-2007, 03:08 PM   #31
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Sure a Vette gets great gas mileage when you driving 70mph in 6th gear. The new M3 I am sure will have decent MPG when driven in 6th at highway speeds. But please people can we put things in context here. The 12-13MPG were ahieved during the course of full day of road testing which included flogging and normal driving. Honestly my E36 M3 doesnt get much better gas mileage than that when I am having fun.

I really could never own a performance car that still uses Leaf Springs so the Vette is out for me.

Jason
When C/D or any other magazine reviews these vehicle they apply the same real life GAS testing, right? How come they came up with If I am not mistaken (18mpg for the vette, and 13 for the M)

Please, correct me if I am wrong
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      09-07-2007, 03:18 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
And again, the CSL card is played. This is not an attainable car in the US. Its basically irrelevant. Awesome, but irrelevant.
Can you show me a published reference where a BMW AG or BMW NA representative says we aren't getting any CSL models in the future.

-Adam
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      09-07-2007, 03:25 PM   #33
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As stated in your original post, you have only the car magazines' reviews of the way the E92 M3 feels and performs. Since everyone is different, you and I cannot rely on them alone, we must drive them for ourselves.

My advice for you is as follows; if you are that concerned about the way the new M3 is going to be, I encourage you to test, to some extent, all the new cars you mentioned (C63, CTS-V, Cayman/997S, Z06, IS-F, etc.) when they come out, of course. Keep note of how they all feel to you and what you would want to spend on that experience daily for the next 20 years. I think that you may quickly find that BMW M has not skewed from its insistence that they do make "The Ultimate Driving Machine". To know that its not all about numbers (who makes more HP, etc), its about the whole driving pleasure experience. I know thats why I bought a BMW. :-)
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      09-07-2007, 03:44 PM   #34
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BMW is interested in getting market shares..... There cars are pretty ugly and technology has been a hit or miss.... i.e. Active steering, SMG, etc.
There suspensions have become so stiff that ordering sport suspension will mean driving on the race track only. They are pushing cars...... The new M3 is a good looking car for sure..... but steering feel is an issue???
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      09-07-2007, 03:46 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by JEllis View Post
Ruff,

To make this short I will say that I wouldnt own a performance car that I didnt enjoy driving. Whatever it is that I enjoy in car is probably something I couldnt put into words so I wont try. Like I stated earlier, plenty of people hated, and I mean hated, what BMW did with the M3 when the E36 M came out. Then BMW made it worse for us Americans and didnt give us the Euro engine. But, it still won plenty of praise. And you know what, it puts a smile on my face everytime I drive it. So, personally I think the journalists have no idea what I like in a performance car nor the masses. So, when I pick mine up in April I will let you know if I decide to keep it or not. But, I bet you I will love it. I havnt lost my faith in M yet....

Jason

You Will.
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      09-07-2007, 05:08 PM   #36
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I will have a few things to say on this once the next issue of EVO is published in 10 days time. If you remember I recently compared the E92 M3 over a 3 day grouptest with every other major M-car of the past 20 years.

I think it's a worthwhile debate because when you do get the chance to compare the various generations of M-car there are a few concerns that do emerge. Unsurprisingly the more commercial mindset of M-division is one of those concerns.

It all boils down to what you define as being the remit of M-Division.
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      09-07-2007, 05:37 PM   #37
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I will have a few things to say on this once the next issue of EVO is published in 10 days time. If you remember I recently compared the E92 M3 over a 3 day grouptest with every other major M-car of the past 20 years.

I think it's a worthwhile debate because when you do get the chance to compare the various generations of M-car there are a few concerns that do emerge. Unsurprisingly the more commercial mindset of M-division is one of those concerns.

It all boils down to what you define as being the remit of M-Division.
Agreed, but then again EVERYTHING is getting more commercialised these days. Unfortunately passion and fun are beginning to take a back seat to profit and cost-cutting.

The new M3 I believe will still be an awesome vehicle but I'll have to hold off final judgement until it arrives here.......someday........
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      09-07-2007, 05:39 PM   #38
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Can you show me a published reference where a BMW AG or BMW NA representative says we aren't getting any CSL models in the future.

-Adam
+1

The only source I've heard from on this subject is from Scott26 on this forum who mentioned the E92 will NOT be coming here in CSL form.
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      09-07-2007, 08:56 PM   #39
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Ugg...

That wall hurt me. This is for my own sanity!



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First of all, before the flaming begins for me submitting another whiny thread, hear me out. I am as hardcore BMW and M fan as there is, period.

I have literally been researching, and saving cash to buy an M3 for the past 20 yrs. My intent is to keep the car for another 20 yrs. So I am a very vested in this purchase and I have went way beyond the call for due diligence in my preparation for such a monetary commitment. One thing I can confidently say is I do know my stuff when it comes to BMW.

Let me start with the M1. Not many people know this but BMW commissioned Lamborghini to build the Chassis for BMW. It was BMW's only mid engine car...and What a car. It makes me ill to see that the R8 is now the spiritual successor to the M1 and it is made by Audi. The R8 is the true challenger to the Porshce brigade just like the M1 was. Where is BMW and the M division? I just think it is so ironic that BMW is arrogant enough to say Audi is not their direct competitor. Wait till they drop Lamborghini's V10 into the R8 and you will really see Porsche limping off the scene with their tails between their legs. Porsche is too worried about the 997 cash cow to allow the Cayman to be the car it capable of being. The M5 was ranked 3rd out of 3 cars in a Car and Driver shootout with AMG taking the victory barely over the S6. The Cadilac CTS V is rummored to be getting a 500-600 hp Corvette power. The Lexus GS-F is is building an M5 fighter with possible V10 power. The RS6 may have what could be +550hp.

I have never seen the new M coupe rated higher than the Cayman nor are we likely anytime soon to see the the yet released M3 rated higher than Porsches "can't afford a 911 huh" car. Reports are the C63's steering and handling are much improved. The latest rumor from Mercedes is they are no longer going to build their transmissions in house but rather outsource them and focus on the new DCT technology. Infinity is quickly catching up to the 335 with the G37 and offers an LSD to boot. The new Audi B8 is is rumored to be be getting twin turbos with its V6 for 300+ horsepower and has for the most part fixed the Audi demon known as understeer by repositioning the engine farther back in the chassis. The twin turbo GTR is going to send all the car companies back to the drawing boards.

It just seems like BMW is moving in the direction of what AMG use to be...great engines, with all the creature comforts but heavy and a "blunt" driving experience. Audi, the German step child in America, but highly respected in Europe, looks like it is becoming the new M Division. They are willing to take risks and make the necessary changes to not only compete but dominate the sports car segment. And in turn, build the car BMW had always been destined to ressurect. I had confidence the E92M3 was going to recieve the type of reviews the R8 is getting. I was wrong. I know that reviews are just that... reviews but they are conducted by professionals who drive and review supercars every day for a living. I can't do that, so their reviews became an important piece of the puzzle in determining my purchase. AMG also appears to have gotten it's act together for the first time and actually commited itself to motor sports and driving dynamics with it's new offerings.

I can gaurantee you, Porsche has become very nervous themselves as they should be and will need to respond soon. I am sure DFI and DCT will be their first response but will it be enough? That leaves the vaunted M division, the keepers of Motor Sport. Will they get back to their roots, those roots that have earned their well deserved respect and reputation or will they continue move in the direction of Lexus and Mercedes offering wonderful electronics and high speed creature comforts? I am confident they will respond, but how and when?

If PAG would've invested into DFI technology for it's sportscars instead of wasting their engineering $$ n making a 4-door sedan, the Cayman and 911's would be slightly more torqy and effecient...

This would've killed the new M3 completly. I'm leaning more and more towards the Cayman S, specially when low mileage leases are comming up for under $40k. I don;t usually buy used cars but for about $4k in mods, the Cayman S will have the HP (acceleration) I desire.

The more and more I think about it, the E92 M3 should've been smaller and lighter than the 335 in a big way. I'm just upset with the car. The engine and chasis seem great. Why BMW doesn't dail in the steering with all the complaints is beyound me. I really don't want a techno marvel.. I was a Sports Car first and formost!!



Maybe the MY2009 Cayman S will have DFI and i won't have to babble about the E90 rediculious interior and the misplaced M3!










-Garrett

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      09-08-2007, 07:03 AM   #40
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And again, the CSL card is played. This is not an attainable car in the US. Its basically irrelevant. Awesome, but irrelevant.
You are right. I agree the E46 CSL is fantastic car, but BMW enthusiasts really need to quit playing the CSL card. I see it happen almost every time the M3 gets a poor review or doesn't stand up to it's competitors. The CSL really is irrelevent at least when compared to it's competitors because it's competitors are hampered with extra weight and less than optimal power out puts due to U.S. crash and emmission standards. How come Audi can build the track ready R8 and Porsche can build the track ready GT3 RS yet both cars are legitimate daily drivers and meet U.S. specs? Has the CSL not been offered in the states thus far becuase M engineers don't have the competency to build a light weight and powerful track car that is also a legitimate daily driver that can meet U.S. specs? Maybe M should seek out a few Porsche and Audi engineers.
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      09-08-2007, 07:39 AM   #41
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Just remember, the mandate for BMW M is to take an otherwise normal BMW and make it super. Like any good chef's they are limited by the quality of the ingredients.

The 3er, 5er and 6er are now big and heavy for to suit customer demands and for safety. M just makes them a lot better and faster. Blame BMW customers for making the cars bigger and heavier.

On the good side....

Name another company than can deliver 3 top-of-the-line variants at a rate of 1 / year. M5, M6, M3.... Audi's RS werks is a joke compared to M. AMG Black is a reaction to the fact their AMG's can't compete with the M's.

The Z10 is going to be a car built from the ground up by M.....I dare you to call it soft or lost when it comes out.
T Bone, First of all good to see you back. Points taken. However, all the top of the line BMW cars you mentioned are Grand Touring cars and fine ones at that. One could say the M Coupe is a sports car but hasn't faired well against it's competiton....the 335 beat it around a track no less in a CD test. It should also noted that the 335 also beat the RS4 on the same track. Maybe M should drop the M and insert GT in it's place because that is basically what they have decided to start building. The only car BMW builds anymore that is a consistent class leader is the 335. It was beat in the Motor Trend review by the G37, but results were scewered by the fact that Infinity provided a hand picked 335 for the test. It looks like the M3 is going to be relatively equal to the older RS4 design. So to say RS werks is a joke compared to M is a joke. I guess you also think the mid engine R8 is a joke as well. However, the reviews of of the R8 thus far, haven't been too bad though. The B8 version of the RS4 will have better weight distribution due to engine placement moved rearward. Rumors of FI 450 hp, but more importantly, gobs more torque should improve it's total package. I hope you are right about the Z10 but will they will hamper it with a zillion settings and modes and will M be too arrogant to dump their brain child - servotronic steering? It M be difficult for a front engined Z10 to compete with a mid engine V10. Now if BMW made the Z10 a mid engine design like it's iconic M1, we would really have something to get excited about wouldn't we?
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      09-08-2007, 08:08 AM   #42
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Ugg...

That wall hurt me. This is for my own sanity!






If PAG would've invested into DFI technology for it's sportscars instead of wasting their engineering $$ n making a 4-door sedan, the Cayman and 911's would be slightly more torqy and effecient...

This would've killed the new M3 completly. I'm leaning more and more towards the Cayman S, specially when low mileage leases are comming up for under $40k. I don;t usually buy used cars but for about $4k in mods, the Cayman S will have the HP (acceleration) I desire.

The more and more I think about it, the E92 M3 should've been smaller and lighter than the 335 in a big way. I'm just upset with the car. The engine and chasis seem great. Why BMW doesn't dail in the steering with all the complaints is beyound me. I really don't want a techno marvel.. I was a Sports Car first and formost!!



Maybe the MY2009 Cayman S will have DFI and i won't have to babble about the E90 rediculious interior and the misplaced M3!










-Garrett
Garrett, I agree. PAG is losing it's way even more than M. You think a 4 door sedan from Porsche is bad how about their pig of an SUV? Like I have said before, when it comes to profit grubbing Porsche makes BMW look like a charitable organization. I think the R8/997comparison test results are shocking PAG and if the V8 version doesn't do it wait till they drop the Lambo V10 version. No wonder PAG is trying to take control of Audi. IMO, Porsche is going to have to make a big decision in the near future. Are they willing to stop focusing so much attention on the Iconic 997 with it's inferior rear engined design or move toward a superior mid engine design like the Cayman. With the 997, the flat six is the only performance motor that will fit and and the flat six is pretty much maxed out. I think upstart Audi is the only German company that is moving more toward Motor Sport rather than away from it, though AMG for the first time seems to be making an honest effort as well. The smartest thing Audi did was purchase Lamborghini and their mid engine technology.
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      09-08-2007, 08:44 AM   #43
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I think you are giving AUDI way to much credit...
Which to me puts your motives in question...... but whatever.
Audi finally (kinda) got something right.


At this point very few, (press excluded) have actually driven the New M3 and the ones who have LOVE it. The so called "steering issue" is NOT an issue for them or Car and Driver for that matter. Search the forum most recent if you haven't read it already.

Some of you are like little girls, you believe anything the man with the bag of candy and a black van says.

Test drive the thing yourself before you condem the thing.
How hard is that ?
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      09-08-2007, 03:10 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Garrett View Post
Ugg...

That wall hurt me. This is for my own sanity!






If PAG would've invested into DFI technology for it's sportscars instead of wasting their engineering $$ n making a 4-door sedan, the Cayman and 911's would be slightly more torqy and effecient...

This would've killed the new M3 completly. I'm leaning more and more towards the Cayman S, specially when low mileage leases are comming up for under $40k. I don;t usually buy used cars but for about $4k in mods, the Cayman S will have the HP (acceleration) I desire.

The more and more I think about it, the E92 M3 should've been smaller and lighter than the 335 in a big way. I'm just upset with the car. The engine and chasis seem great. Why BMW doesn't dail in the steering with all the complaints is beyound me. I really don't want a techno marvel.. I was a Sports Car first and formost!!



Maybe the MY2009 Cayman S will have DFI and i won't have to babble about the E90 rediculious interior and the misplaced M3!










-Garrett
That Cayman looks awesome in that pic
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