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      04-08-2013, 10:18 AM   #89
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That's all true, but what I meant: 'made in America' means 'quality' in America, but to the rest of the world it means something like: old engines, lots of fuel, cheap plastics and mainly interesing for the home market. What's the difference with Chinese cars?

Well, there's one big difference: Chinese cars have the promise of tomorrow, a lot of ambition.
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      04-08-2013, 01:13 PM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snipe View Post
That's all true, but what I meant: 'made in America' means 'quality' in America, but to the rest of the world it means something like: old engines, lots of fuel, cheap plastics and mainly interesing for the home market. What's the difference with Chinese cars?

Well, there's one big difference: Chinese cars have the promise of tomorrow, a lot of ambition.
Obviously, you are not aware of the american society. America was driven by oil, they didn't care about gas consumption. So "lots of fuel" ment nothing for them. The mentality is changing but slow. I wouldn't say that their engines are old, I would say that their engines are build in conformity with the demand. Or as soon as people buy them and they are not taxed as in Europe, why bother? They are still building V8 and V10. But they sell. And very well.

So far, it is a difference. First of all, if we talk about trucks, Ford builds beautiful trucks. Also their SUV's -like Explorer, Expedition, Escape- are nice too. Plus, they implemented many features from Jaguar and Range Rover in their vehicles. Since americans prefer big, they focused on these vehicles. The interior of these vehicles is actually very nice with good materials. F150 is the best selling truck for 40 years in a row.

I agree, in the past, the old Mustangs were not the best in interiors but the engineering is very good. Most icons like Mustang, Camaro, Vipers, Corvette have wonderful and potent chassis with powerful plants. These are some of the most selling sport cars, so that should tell you something. However, in the last period of time Ford, Chevrolet etc. improved tremedously their vehicle line up, bringing in nice ineteriors and a much better fit and finish.
If you are taking Cadillac, Lincoln, Buick, you will find very very nice cars with good interiors. The new Mustangs are also very nice and they are improving.

I have full disrespect for plagiators or thieves in general. This is why I hate Lexus too. They copy "a la indigo" a design and put it in the market. Or worse, they are "installing" visually 4 pipes exhaust when actualy the car has two.
How can put my money on these crooks?
Even if they will become number one, I really don't care, and I will never care, for me they will still be a bunch of crooks.
I want to invest in somebody that makes efforts, is original, works to define a line, a product, an identity.

Chinese don't have a lot of ambition. You are confusing ambition with the greed born in a society where everybody wants to do better while they still can. They have millions of people tight up inside a wall, that need to work and eat. Now, few are getting insanely rich using millions of chinese workers that are paid nothing. Is that fair?
No, I will not feed that situation. Plus, as mentioned before, too much money in one side will turn the world upside down in many aspects. And, whatever they will build, I will NEVER own a chinese car. Period.
I actually try to buy things that are build elsewhere. Anytime I go back in Europe, I must be careful that the gifts I buy are not "made in China" because the people there are fed up with chinese stuff that lack in quality.

In terms of cars, ambition is not everything. Coreeans are ambitious too but their cars are no fun. At least they do have their own design which is nice, however, design is not everything.

Just to fix a previous statement, the Mondeo it is now available un America under the name Fusion

Last edited by Tracus; 04-08-2013 at 01:39 PM.
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      04-08-2013, 05:28 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by Tracus View Post
I have full disrespect for plagiators or thieves in general. This is why I hate Lexus too. They copy "a la indigo" a design and put it in the market. Or worse, they are "installing" visually 4 pipes exhaust when actualy the car has two.
How can put my money on these crooks?
Even if they will become number one, I really don't care, and I will never care, for me they will still be a bunch of crooks.
I want to invest in somebody that makes efforts, is original, works to define a line, a product, an identity.

Chinese don't have a lot of ambition. You are confusing ambition with the greed born in a society where everybody wants to do better while they still can. They have millions of people tight up inside a wall, that need to work and eat. Now, few are getting insanely rich using millions of chinese workers that are paid nothing. Is that fair?
No, I will not feed that situation. Plus, as mentioned before, too much money in one side will turn the world upside down in many aspects. And, whatever they will build, I will NEVER own a chinese car. Period.
I actually try to buy things that are build elsewhere. Anytime I go back in Europe, I must be careful that the gifts I buy are not "made in China" because the people there are fed up with chinese stuff that lack in quality.

In terms of cars, ambition is not everything. Coreeans are ambitious too but their cars are no fun. At least they do have their own design which is nice, however, design is not everything.

Just to fix a previous statement, the Mondeo it is now available un America under the name Fusion
First of all, the Lexus LFA is a great car.
Second, there are a lot of crappy Chinese cars, but there are also ambitious brands. Have you seen the Qoros range?
Third, there are also a lot of crappy Korean cars (and dictators). But I do like the Hyundai Genesis Coupe (it is fun, actually) and Peter Schreyer is doing great things at Kia.

Now where's the point in this story? If they manage to get things right, a Chinese sub-brand could be very succesfull for BMW. But it's quite clear the world doesn't need another Landwind, Daihatsu or Samsung.
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      04-09-2013, 04:57 AM   #92
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As long as my BMW does not come out of a chinese factory saying "MADE IN GERMANY" (Just like most Audis promoting "Made in Germany" but being built in Hungary) I am happy.

Never cared about any sub-brands
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      04-09-2013, 05:36 AM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hookandpull View Post
China will milk this for all its worth... They will rape and pillage BMW for every last drawing and schematic and then start another god awful Chinese brand car to use all of their free designs they accumulated from BMW. How many American made TVs do you see out there? Oh yeah there is only one left and their name is Zenith. Once upon a time all TVs were designed and manufactured here in the good ole USA. It wasnt until the manufacturers got greedy and decided to save money by having Japan build them and now look what happened.
Zenith Electronics Corporation is a brand of the South Korean company LG Electronics. The company was previously an American manufacturer of radio and television receivers and other consumer electronics, and was headquartered in Lincolnshire, Illinois. For many years, their famous slogan was "The quality goes in, before the name goes on." LG Electronics acquired a controlling share of Zenith in 1995 and eventually the rest in 1999.

LG is S. Korea's little joke when they bought Goldstar Electronics company back in the 1980's; they renamed it "Lucky Goldstar" - LG.

Last edited by Efthreeoh; 04-09-2013 at 05:44 AM.
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      04-15-2013, 09:39 AM   #94
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Almost everything in the world has that stupid "made in china" etched into it..seems like BMW will have the same. I wonder where they're gonna put it..maybe as a door sill.
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      04-15-2013, 09:45 AM   #95
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Why is everyone surprised? China is the largest marketplace in the world.... BMW would be idiotic to not make money there...
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      04-15-2013, 09:54 AM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snipe View Post
That's all true, but what I meant: 'made in America' means 'quality' in America, but to the rest of the world it means something like: old engines, lots of fuel, cheap plastics and mainly interesing for the home market. What's the difference with Chinese cars?

Well, there's one big difference: Chinese cars have the promise of tomorrow, a lot of ambition.
The BOSS 302 and Corvette are fantastic cars. The performance you get for the cost, especially for the corvette, is extremely hard to beat. Obviously taxes can alter that equation, but I think you'd be still hard pressed to find something better for the price.

That said, the cars aren't for me. But that is personal taste. From an engineering standpoint, they are impressive.
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      04-15-2013, 10:13 AM   #97
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Cheap E90s! What is not to love?

I expect most of you have Apple products most of which are made in China.
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      04-15-2013, 10:13 AM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vertebra
Quote:
Originally Posted by hookandpull View Post
China will milk this for all its worth... They will rape and pillage BMW for every last drawing and schematic and then start another god awful Chinese brand car to use all of their free designs they accumulated from BMW. How many American made TVs do you see out there? Oh yeah there is only one left and their name is Zenith. Once upon a time all TVs were designed and manufactured here in the good ole USA. It wasnt until the manufacturers got greedy and decided to save money by having Japan build them and now look what happened.
Apple is going through that with Samsung now.
That plus they don't have to pay skyrocketing fees imposed by their legislators, if all those fees taxes go down they wouldn't go to begin with, I don't blame them.
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      04-15-2013, 10:49 AM   #99
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BMW has only really been concerned with sales and profits in recent years, not the integrity of the brand. Is this really surprising?

Bought a $60k 3 series recently? Take a wild guess where that profit margin is going? Expanding the brand...
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      04-15-2013, 10:57 AM   #100
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I dont see why you guys are so against the Chinese brand? sitting in front your computer complainting like a bunch of uneducated children, typical Aemerican style.

first of all, I own many BMWs, and every fucking time it goes to the dealership for a repair is a "made in US" one, you telling me thats "quality"? my german build BMWs never had to go to the dealership for any repairs, period!

so shut your hole and accept the world order has changed, most of US made cars are piece of crap, and you guys have no rights blaming the Chinese quality are cheaper, in fact, you get what you pay for. there are high precision products made in China, but are you willing to pay the price? of course no, because you want it cheap! then shut your hole and grow up.
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      04-15-2013, 12:18 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by jphughan View Post
It's seriously lame that China requires automakers to develop a new brand if they want to assemble cars in China under a partnership with a domestic company.
Here's the story that I heard from a few people in the Chinese auto industry.

1. China does not allow 100% foreign owned car factory in China, they have to establish a partnership with a Chinese company if they want to build or assemble cars there. However they are not required to create a new brand.

For example, BMW Brilliance(Huachen BMW/Huachen Baoma) was a joint venture between BMW and Huachen/Brilliance, but no new brand was created.

2. A new brand, created by the foreign automaker and it's partner, is required if the foreign automaker, or the joint venture, want to expand it's production capacity over a certain level.

I'm not 100% sure who can build the new factory after the new brand is created, but I think it's safe to say the new factory has to be built in partnership with the domestic company like mentioned above.

3. If the foreign automaker, or joint venture wants to expand the production capacity even further, and build a 3rd factory, they will have to create/import some pure electric vehicles.

Again not sure about the details but you can see the general idea here.

And I was told that Zinoro, was created so BMW and Brilliance can get the approval for a new factory, and they are not expecting to sell a lot of Zinoro cars. (And using the E90 parts will make it a lot cheaper to develop such 'special purpose' vehicle.)
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      04-15-2013, 12:22 PM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darkz View Post
I dont see why you guys are so against the Chinese brand? sitting in front your computer complainting like a bunch of uneducated children, typical Aemerican style.

first of all, I own many BMWs, and every fucking time it goes to the dealership for a repair is a "made in US" one, you telling me thats "quality"? my german build BMWs never had to go to the dealership for any repairs, period!

so shut your hole and accept the world order has changed, most of US made cars are piece of crap, and you guys have no rights blaming the Chinese quality are cheaper, in fact, you get what you pay for. there are high precision products made in China, but are you willing to pay the price? of course no, because you want it cheap! then shut your hole and grow up.
This is very true.

It is the US companies, who ordered the goods from China, refused to pay more for higher quality products, which China is capable of producing (with some except).

Yet companies like Wal-Mart are pushing the supplier for lower price and as a result you get lower quality.

If anyone think China can't make/assemble quality stuff, look at your Apple products.
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      04-15-2013, 12:24 PM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fricfracfrank
A Chinese made "German" car will not in my eyes hold up to the value and quality, and ultimate driving machine the BMW brand has portrayed.
What about a Chinese made iPhone or a Chinese made iMac. Do they live up to Apple's premium branding?
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      04-15-2013, 12:37 PM   #104
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wow look at this thread i thought racism didn't exist anymore.
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      04-15-2013, 02:42 PM   #105
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Funny, I would have thought "zhi nuo" is the English variation of "zhi nuo" inasmuch as the Chinese/Mandarin variation would be written in Chinese characters. Isn't that the point of pinyin?
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      04-15-2013, 07:03 PM   #106
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wow look at this thread i thought racism didn't exist anymore.

...and thus begins the end of your naivete...
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      04-15-2013, 07:14 PM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fricfracfrank View Post
A Chinese made "German" car will not in my eyes hold up to the value and quality, and ultimate driving machine the BMW brand has portrayed.
It would hold the same value as far as I'm concerned, so long as fewer things don't break. I already buy a swarm of products made in China and I'm quite happy with them. I don't know why I should see this as any different.

Workers anywhere in the world are capable of building a high quality product, including a car. Truth be told, it's the process, technology and design that affect the car's delivered quality, not the people who make it. Were the latter true, companies wouldn't choose to have them made in places where the labor and currency are less costly. Moreover, given the quality of American cars in the past score of years, you argument militates for not buying any BMW products made in South Carolina.

The sole concern I would have about it is that BMW may be seeking to incorporate the concept of "disposable products" into their cars. This concerns me only because of the great prevalence of leasing the cars rather than buying them, which means for the most part, BMWs only need to be any good for as long as the maximum lease period. BMW doesn't care about selling used BMWs, the BMW dealers do, but then they can make just as much money selling any kind of used car, so they don't care too much either. As I have never leased a car, I hope this isn't what BMW are up to. Even if they are, however, who assembles the car is not going to be the issue. The issue would be and shorter period until the car reaches obsolescence.
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      04-15-2013, 07:20 PM   #108
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But what is the market for the X3/5/6 like outside of the US? Are we the biggest consumer for these vehicles? Don't the majority Europeans drive more efficient & copact vehicles?
China is on the cusp of being the largest market for everything. Period.

China was the dominant power in the world for far longer than the US has even existed. They've had their ups and downs, but they have 5000 years of experience at being a nation and 1.6 billion people. Time is on their side.
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      04-15-2013, 07:29 PM   #109
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Unfortunately, it's a damned-if-you, damned-if-you-don't situation for all car manufacturers when it comes to dealing with China.

If BMW does (which it already did by entering into this co-branded joint venture) then they gain access to the Chinese market with domestically produced cars which will be cheaper to produce and transport/deliver. If they don't, then they get to protect their intellectual property, but lose out on gaining the advantages of having access to the huge Chinese market at lower costs.
Exactly.
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      04-16-2013, 12:31 AM   #110
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