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View Poll Results: What right should gay have?
Marriage 53 45.30%
Civil Unions will all legal ramifications marriage, just not the name 28 23.93%
No rights from the government 19 16.24%
Government should restrict gay rights 17 14.53%
Voters: 117. You may not vote on this poll

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      06-30-2005, 11:01 AM   #1
vivid
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Gay rights

Spain has just legalized gay marriage joining Holland and Belgium as the only three countries to fully recognize gay marriage; no doubt Canada will be the fourth very soon. With most of the western world give gays more rights and the USA restricting rights, what do you guys think about gay rights/marriage/civil union?

This can be a very touchy subject so please be respectful in your replies.
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      07-01-2005, 08:33 AM   #2
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I have no problem with people being gay but i do want the word marriage reserved for when a man and a women get married. Call me old fashioned. On the same hand people should never be punished for their sexual preference. You're right its a very very touchy subject .
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      07-01-2005, 10:38 AM   #3
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I understand the mentality of wanting to keep the "word" marriage reserved for traditional unions.....but words are powerful tools we use when describing ourselves. In order to have true equal rights then gays must be able to describe their unions in an equal way and convey all of the meaning embodied in that word "marriage". Anything less is a compromise and relegates gay unions to "less than" status. I also feel that the courts and not the vote of the people should be the vehicle for deciding such issues. There is an expression in poli science called "the tyranny of the majority" which basically warns that a majority of the people can abrogate the rights of the minority.

I find it ironic that so many Americans say the "sanctity of marriage" is threatened by gays. It seems to me that with a 50% divorce rate, adultery, broken homes, financial struggles of single parents, etc the heterosexual community can't claim they maintain superior custody of this institution.

Gay union and eventually marriage is here to stay and while it's not ironed out in the US yet it will be.

PS I'm gay.
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      07-01-2005, 05:43 PM   #4
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Actually 50% of people who get married get divorced and 75% of marriages end in divorce... I know even worse

If its just the word marriage then I don't mind not using it as long as I have exactly the same rights as a married couple does.

But there again, is this as equal as having to ride in the back of the bus? Blacks rode the bus, got to their destination... but were they equal?

That being said I can live with the rights of marriage just not in name...

One more thing to add, when ever I talk to someone who is not for gay rights they always think that being gay is a decision, its not its the way we were born... Itís like asking a straight guy do you like tits or ass? Was that a choice or just how your feel inside? You canít choose what you like, you just like it.
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      07-01-2005, 09:24 PM   #5
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truely nobody knows is being gay is born into people or if upbringing does it. I recently saw a talk show (montel williams?) where they brought in twins where one was gay and one wasn't. But when they have the same genetics and almost the same upbringing (same parents, same house, etc) what made one gay and one not? Truth is that I know that marriage is screwed up and that it is becoming a joke (the rate is actually 38% for divorces, not 50%) but does anyone have any rates on divorces between gay and lesbian marriages or partnerships would it add or subtract from the "sanctity of marriage?"

I do support gays getting married or partnered or whatever people want to call it because they should be afforded all the rights and priviledges that straight people do. I also think it would bring down the amount of STD transmission among the gay male community if they were to commit themselves to one partner.

This is a really great subject to discuss on a message board because whenever i get into this conversation with friends everyone can't get their message heard because everyone has an opinion and wants to express it all at the same time .
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      07-02-2005, 03:27 AM   #6
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I just want gays to have to face divorce,

marriage is easy, divorce is a pain
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      07-02-2005, 06:06 AM   #7
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I don't get it why they make such a problem of gays getting married.. Let them live their lifes and put your time in real problems.
Some Republican guy (I thought the Governator himself) said: "Gay marriages are a serious thread to the American society."
Sometimes I think Americans (read: Republicans) are really stupid if they find gays more of a thread then for example their fantastic gun-law..
Their main argument is that the bible says that marriage is between a men and a woman. The bible forbids many things that the Republicans do, but it seems that they use it very selectively and only when it's in their advantage.. Why they use a 1500 year old book for these problems is another question, but let's stick to the thread..

btw. I'm from Holland, but I'm not gay
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      07-02-2005, 06:45 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ward
I just want gays to have to face divorce,

marriage is easy, divorce is a pain
True and I would happily take the risks of divorce to be able to have the benefits of marriage; being able to see and make decisions for my partner when he's in hospital because right now the hospital would say "are you family??? Sorry you can't see him."; I'd like to be able to leave my/our house to him in my will without the estate tax implications; We could share health benefits... the list goes on and on, and right now I do feel like a second class citizen. Here in Georgia you can be fired from your job just because youíre gay.

If gays were allowed to marry I don't think most would make the perfect little family, there would be just as many divorcees, fights, cases of abuse, nasty court battles as straight couple have. But we should have the right to get the good and the bad of marriage.


Thomas,
I think itís more the devout Christians more than the republicans that are anti-gays, but devout Christians do make up a large part of the republicans party.

The thing that gets me is that US culture has made marriage a joke. Marriage is as sacred as a TV reality show; NBC's "Who Wants to Marry My Dad?" and FOX's "Who Wants to Marry a Millionaire?" And gays will ruin the traditional values of marriage?
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      07-02-2005, 06:46 AM   #9
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Marriage, we can't ignore them anymore.
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      07-07-2005, 08:54 AM   #10
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I have to say I am surprised by the results. 80% if favor of full rights (whether called marriage or not) and only 20% against gay rights... I thought the results would have been reversed or at least not 80% in favor. I wonder if itís due to the international group we have on this board? Either way I glad to see such acceptance.
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      07-10-2005, 07:45 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vivid
The thing that gets me is that US culture has made marriage a joke. Marriage is as sacred as a TV reality show; NBC's "Who Wants to Marry My Dad?" and FOX's "Who Wants to Marry a Millionaire?" And gays will ruin the traditional values of marriage?
So true, I think pop culture is more of a threat towards marriage than gay and lesbians.
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      08-22-2005, 09:33 AM   #12
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as long as you are happy you should have the right to do as you please as long as you dont interfere with anyone
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      08-22-2005, 11:14 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davinet78
as long as you are happy you should have the right to do as you please as long as you dont interfere with anyone
Ditto
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      08-22-2005, 11:54 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davinet78
as long as you are happy you should have the right to do as you please as long as you dont interfere with anyone
I agree too...
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      08-22-2005, 12:15 PM   #15
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I am rather indifferent on this matter.
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      08-22-2005, 01:00 PM   #16
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I have no comment.....
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      08-22-2005, 01:55 PM   #17
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happiness is happiness and LOVE is LOVE we are ALL Equal!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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      08-22-2005, 03:14 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davinet78
as long as you are happy you should have the right to do as you please as long as you dont interfere with anyone

I concur.

Besides, I personally believe that denying a group of people the right to marry is discriminatory at best. It's just sad. I could go on and on and on, but we'll leave it at that
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      08-22-2005, 03:47 PM   #19
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I also agree with the last few responses... just saw a funny thread over on bimmerfest, off-topic area: http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=108879

I've seen this one before, or something like it. An oldie but goodie...
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      08-22-2005, 04:32 PM   #20
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Sorry, but I kind of want to offer my insight on the whole Leviticus situation...

Sacrificing bulls or lambs to God, by way of a Burnt Offering, was just that...a sacrifice. In the time of the ancient Hebrews, Jews, like many other ancient peoples of the time, began to settle down and farm instead of being constantly on the move, hunting for food. So farm animals were of great value to farmers. Though we don't kill bulls today for sacrifice, money is fairly valuable to us. We all make sacrifices--donations to a church or charity, compromises with friends or a spouse, or even being nice to someone we really don't like.

The Jews would sacrifice these animals not to give smoke and ash to God, but because of the meaning behind it. They were giving up something of great value because of their devotion to God.

Shellfish...it was considered an abomination to eat anything "unclean" including fish from the ocean, because at the time these texts were written, "cooking" food was in its early stages. Eating raw seafood would make anyone sick, so therefore it was considered "unclean". When other things were mentioned as being "unclean", it was more of a public health issue than it was for being devoted to God. They didn't have our modern medicine. Staying away from anything "unclean" would promote good health.

Here's an interesting point: only the first four of the Ten Commandments actually have anything to do with God himself. The remaining six deal explicitly with your neighbor.

"Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight". Only Jews from the Levite tribe could be priests. It says if you have a crooked back, or are too short, or have defected eyes or sex glands, you cannot approach the altar. You can take this literally, or you can read into this and realize that God will be very selective of the people he will allow to serve him (but not selective physically).

And that quote from Exodus 21, that's after the Jews left Egypt. Slavery was commonplace back then, and believe it or not, that bible quote was made to ensure equity in the slave/servant business.

There are other quotes, but this person obviously has taken everything literally (and Orthodox Jews do take every word in the Hebrew Bible literally as being God's word). However, I believe the Bible leaves much room for interpretation. The Bible was written by man, and should be treated as such. However, I believe these men were inspired by God to write.
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      08-22-2005, 05:12 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sharp1183
There are other quotes, but this person obviously has taken everything literally (and Orthodox Jews do take every word in the Hebrew Bible literally as being God's word).
Or it's a joke meant to question the wisdom of justifying a position on something with a quote from the bible.
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      08-22-2005, 05:25 PM   #22
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I really, really don't want to start a religious debate here, but I must ask only one thing

sharp1183 - you mentioned in your explanations of Leviticus excerpts that the "uncleanliness" of shellfish was written primarily as a warning for the people of the times and as our (well, perhaps not my) cooking abilities have advanced, that rule has become dated. The same can be said of the regulations regarding slavery. I must ask, however, how it is decided which parts of the Bible are to still be taken into consideration, and which are not? I'm sure that most devout Christians don't own slaves anymore and many eat shellfish, but would still consider homosexuality an abomination. Why is it that certain things are considered to be an abomination still, but others aren't?


please note, I'm not trying to villanize you or anyone else, but I just don't necessarily understand the logic behind it...
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