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      12-02-2013, 08:11 PM   #89
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Bottom line... M3/M4 gets crushed by the Z/28... And for quite a bit less $$$ might I add. M3's are so overrated by their owners cause their crusty noses are in the air and they can't see past them. M3's are a dime a dozen here in Charlotte. I see no less then 5-6 of them every time I jump in my car. I bet seeing a Z/28 on the road will be a lot fewer and further between.
Curious how you know this since the M3/4 isn't out yet.

Also what is this "crusty nose" reference you speak of? Do you know every single M3 owner? What makes them think their cars are "overrated"?
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      12-02-2013, 09:27 PM   #90
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Bottom line... M3/M4 gets crushed by the Z/28... And for quite a bit less $$$ might I add. M3's are so overrated by their owners cause their crusty noses are in the air and they can't see past them. M3's are a dime a dozen here in Charlotte. I see no less then 5-6 of them every time I jump in my car. I bet seeing a Z/28 on the road will be a lot fewer and further between.
Complete BS!

I live in Charlotte and commute around the city daily. I hardly ever see other M3's... Talk about exaggeration to make a point. Sounds like you have the crusty nose.

The Camaro is plagued with design flaws. Oh well... Merica!
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      12-02-2013, 09:33 PM   #91
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      12-02-2013, 09:34 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by Foxrus14 View Post
Bottom line... M3/M4 gets crushed by the Z/28... And for quite a bit less $$$ might I add. M3's are so overrated by their owners cause their crusty noses are in the air and they can't see past them. M3's are a dime a dozen here in Charlotte. I see no less then 5-6 of them every time I jump in my car. I bet seeing a Z/28 on the road will be a lot fewer and further between.
Complete BS!

I live in Charlotte and commute around the city daily. I hardly ever see other M3's... Talk about exaggeration to make a point. Sounds like you have the crusty nose.

The Camaro is plagued with design flaws. Oh well... Merica!
I live in an area that I seriously drive past about 5-6 on their way to drop off their kids at Charlotte country day middle school. In the afternoon while I run through the neighborhood they are picking their kids up. They are everywhere. At the hospital in the physician parking lot there are 3-4 every day. And a few M5's. You must live and drive around in east Charlotte.

And you just proved your smug ass with the 'Merica comment. That would be the crusty nose I mentioned above.
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      12-02-2013, 09:37 PM   #93
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LOL @ Americans who think hating everything American makes them a true enthusiast. BMW makes vehicles with plenty of flaws and puts the same engine in the majority of their lineup. Just because you wear a scarf with your hemp t-shirt and hate American cars doesnt make you any more enlightened than those of us who can appreciate cars made in the US.
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      12-03-2013, 06:14 AM   #94
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LOL @ Americans who think hating everything American makes them a true enthusiast. BMW makes vehicles with plenty of flaws and puts the same engine in the majority of their lineup. Just because you wear a scarf with your hemp t-shirt and hate American cars doesnt make you any more enlightened than those of us who can appreciate cars made in the US.
I don't hate American. The fact is that no matter how hard they try, American manufacturers fall short of the supreme balance and sophistication found in the high end European cars. The one car that has changed that is the C7 Corvette, but the Camaro? It is a brutal muscle car. That's fine if that's what you want, but I graduated high school quite some time ago.
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      12-03-2013, 11:12 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by LarThaL View Post
I don't hate American. The fact is that no matter how hard they try, American manufacturers fall short of the supreme balance and sophistication found in the high end European cars. The one car that has changed that is the C7 Corvette, but the Camaro? It is a brutal muscle car. That's fine if that's what you want, but I graduated high school quite some time ago.
Is that why the mustang GT went toe to toe with the E92 in all reviews and costs a lot less? I know its the liberal thing to hate everything American but at least be honest about it.

Nothing BMW makes can touch a Z28 on the track. But I take it you need heated seats and a button for every function you are too lazy to do yourself??
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      12-03-2013, 11:58 AM   #96
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Is that why the mustang GT went toe to toe with the E92 in all reviews and costs a lot less? I know its the liberal thing to hate everything American but at least be honest about it.

Nothing BMW makes can touch a Z28 on the track. But I take it you need heated seats and a button for every function you are too lazy to do yourself??
If all I wanted was the fastest thing around a track, I would get a GTR and be done with it. I have no doubt that a 5.0 can fully match the e9x around a track, but I am looking for more than just performance.

Going back to my GTR analogy, however, I would still take a 991 turbo S at twice the cost of a GTR, just as I would take an e92 M3 at twice the cost of the 'Stang.

Again, it is about wanting luxury and refinement to go along with the performance, not the performance alone.

The first car I ever owned was a Mustang GT. When it was time to get my next car, I test drove another Mustang GT. Then I went and drove a Honda Prelude. I bought the Prelude without a second thought despite the 90hp deficit. It just felt so much more refined.
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      12-03-2013, 12:02 PM   #97
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...
I use to know a camaro owner ... the best mod he did was sell it.
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      12-03-2013, 12:15 PM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LarThaL View Post
I don't hate American. The fact is that no matter how hard they try, American manufacturers fall short of the supreme balance and sophistication found in the high end European cars. The one car that has changed that is the C7 Corvette, but the Camaro? It is a brutal muscle car. That's fine if that's what you want, but I graduated high school quite some time ago.
You can do better than this. I know, because in fact you have done better than this in the past.

First, OK, you don't hate American. I believe you. You just don't like American - and your prejudices are showing.

Next, American manufacturers don't compete with high end European cars. Where they do in fact compete is with lower end and mid-range European cars. In that context, check out the Cadillac ATS, which absolutely blows away the current 3 series in overall handling. For that matter, early reviews of the CTS V-Sport show it to be a really good handler as well. We'll see what the upcoming CTS-V brings to the party, but the last one (that they're still building) was a fully competitive machine, and rumors about the new one are very intriguing.

As for your dismissal of the Camaro as just a brutal musclecar, consider that the lowly SS model with the 1LE handling package is a very serious performer. No, it's not quite as quick as the M3 in a straight line, but appears to be demonstrably quicker around a road course. Down on power to weight but a better overall handler? Lauded by road-testers as being a marvelously malleable machine on track? Is that sophisticated?

The ZL-1 and Z28 Camaros speak for themselves. Very quick in a straight line, and perhaps quicker than that around a road course.

None of these Camaros are just brutal musclecars. They each seem to be better overall track machines than the current M3.

Your dismissal of these machines as high-schooler cars is just silly.

Lastly, your characterization of your m3 as a "precision tool" is equally silly. In my opinion, the current M3 may be the best overall compromise car ever built by man, but its persistent understeer and flaming brakes after 4-5 laps on track are a testament to the fact that's it's just too big and heavy to qualify as a precision tool. Likewise, the Audi S6 is hardly the "Sledgehammer". Terrific car, but as you may remember, that appellation was originally given to an aftermarket Mercedes model way back when, and I'd say the current E63 S model may more properly deserve the current title.

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      12-03-2013, 12:41 PM   #99
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You can do better than this. I know, because in fact you have done better than this in the past.

First, OK, you don't hate American. I believe you. You just don't like American - and your prejudices are showing.
Maybe he didn't want to post a full discourse here in this post, and from his past posts, I'd say your characterization of "prejudices" is perhaps wrongfully interpreted for "wisdom" (a combination of knowledge and experience) with a hint of sarcasm tossed in.
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      12-03-2013, 12:51 PM   #100
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In that context, check out the Cadillac ATS, which absolutely blows away the current 3 series in overall handling.
Yet loses to the E9X. Did the Cadillac suddenly get amazingly better or did BMW dumb down the F30? All reports say they dumbed down the F30 Sorry, but the F-sport Lexus kids try to make the same comparisons.

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No, it's not quite as quick as the M3 in a straight line, but appears to be demonstrably quicker around a road course. Down on power to weight but a better overall handler? Lauded by road-testers as being a marvelously malleable machine on track? Is that sophisticated?
What road testers? The totally unbiased ones from a Camaro forum that have never driven anything but Fbodies and Corvettes?

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The ZL-1 and Z28 Camaros speak for themselves. Very quick in a straight line, and perhaps quicker than that around a road course.
Not really all that fast in a straight line. Good around a track until the ZL1 gets heatsoak and then its about the same as a stock 335i.

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None of these Camaros are just brutal musclecars. They each seem to be better overall track machines than the current M3.
I'd not consider any of them 'brutal' or muscle cars anymore. But considering you're last statement....

Have you even driven a 1LE Camaro before? It's not all that impressive. The Ford track-pack on a bone stock Mustang GT is a better handling car. The whole Camaro platform still suffers from a terrible IRS. All of them get by with very stiff suspension and great tires and do well in spite of how terrible their steering is. You're HIGH if you think a 1LE will touch a M3 on a track.

And you want to talk about overheating brakes from 4-5 laps and other such nonsense? You DO realize the ZL1 gets heatsoak really badly right? I've seen them run slower than V6 Mustang times at the track. You're calling a 3500lb car too heavy but lauding 4000lb+ tanks as some kind of track car? REALLY? lol

I think they're great vehicles, but when you've actually driven them and cross-shopped them, you'll understand. You're going off half-assed 'Lightning Lap' numbers like the rest of the poseurs as some sort of fact. Seriously, go test drive a real M3 coupe and then test drive a 1LE or ZL1 Camaro back to back; it's a silly comparison.

The Z06 outran a GT3 RS in the Lightning Lap, I guess that means the Z06 handles better right? LOL.
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      12-03-2013, 01:04 PM   #101
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I live in an area that I seriously drive past about 5-6 on their way to drop off their kids at Charlotte country day middle school. In the afternoon while I run through the neighborhood they are picking their kids up. They are everywhere. At the hospital in the physician parking lot there are 3-4 every day. And a few M5's. You must live and drive around in east Charlotte.

And you just proved your smug ass with the 'Merica comment. That would be the crusty nose I mentioned above.
Live and work in Southpark. Drive uptown, into union county few times a week and sometimes Huntersville. While I see some 328's and some 335's, the M3's I usually pass are e46's and that is very few. As an owner of an e92 M3, I look for them and often wave. I don't pass many.
For me it isn't just about speed... Like most M3 owners! The visibility in the Camaro is God awful, and don't get me started on the backseat or lackthereof. Cheap interior rattles, door handles at your shin and soft paint.

That's just the beginning of the list...

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If all I wanted was the fastest thing around a track, I would get a GTR and be done with it. I have no doubt that a 5.0 can fully match the e9x around a track, but I am looking for more than just performance.

Going back to my GTR analogy, however, I would still take a 991 turbo S at twice the cost of a GTR, just as I would take an e92 M3 at twice the cost of the 'Stang.

Again, it is about wanting luxury and refinement to go along with the performance, not the performance alone.

The first car I ever owned was a Mustang GT. When it was time to get my next car, I test drove another Mustang GT. Then I went and drove a Honda Prelude. I bought the Prelude without a second thought despite the 90hp deficit. It just felt so much more refined.
+1 Couldn't have said it better myself
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      12-03-2013, 02:26 PM   #102
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Yet loses to the E9X. Did the Cadillac suddenly get amazingly better or did BMW dumb down the F30? All reports say they dumbed down the F30 Sorry, but the F-sport Lexus kids try to make the same comparisons.



What road testers? The totally unbiased ones from a Camaro forum that have never driven anything but Fbodies and Corvettes?


Not really all that fast in a straight line. Good around a track until the ZL1 gets heatsoak and then its about the same as a stock 335i.



I'd not consider any of them 'brutal' or muscle cars anymore. But considering you're last statement....

Have you even driven a 1LE Camaro before? It's not all that impressive. The Ford track-pack on a bone stock Mustang GT is a better handling car. The whole Camaro platform still suffers from a terrible IRS. All of them get by with very stiff suspension and great tires and do well in spite of how terrible their steering is. You're HIGH if you think a 1LE will touch a M3 on a track.

And you want to talk about overheating brakes from 4-5 laps and other such nonsense? You DO realize the ZL1 gets heatsoak really badly right? I've seen them run slower than V6 Mustang times at the track. You're calling a 3500lb car too heavy but lauding 4000lb+ tanks as some kind of track car? REALLY? lol

I think they're great vehicles, but when you've actually driven them and cross-shopped them, you'll understand. You're going off half-assed 'Lightning Lap' numbers like the rest of the poseurs as some sort of fact. Seriously, go test drive a real M3 coupe and then test drive a 1LE or ZL1 Camaro back to back; it's a silly comparison.

The Z06 outran a GT3 RS in the Lightning Lap, I guess that means the Z06 handles better right? LOL.


The Z06 is the better track car.
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      12-03-2013, 03:38 PM   #103
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You can do better than this. I know, because in fact you have done better than this in the past.

Yeah, i suppose

First, OK, you don't hate American. I believe you. You just don't like American - and your prejudices are showing.

I wish I cold get into an American car and love the layout, materials, graphics, ergonomics, etc. but something always feels botched. It really has more to do with interiors than exteriors. Love the body design of the Mustang, actually.

Next, American manufacturers don't compete with high end European cars. Where they do in fact compete is with lower end and mid-range European cars. In that context, check out the Cadillac ATS, which absolutely blows away the current 3 series in overall handling. For that matter, early reviews of the CTS V-Sport show it to be a really good handler as well. We'll see what the upcoming CTS-V brings to the party, but the last one (that they're still building) was a fully competitive machine, and rumors about the new one are very intriguing.

I will wait to see. The ATS-V may be the car of choice here. Cadillac needs a new badge. The Cadillac badge just looks so dorky. I will give it a fair shake, however.

As for your dismissal of the Camaro as just a brutal musclecar, consider that the lowly SS model with the 1LE handling package is a very serious performer. No, it's not quite as quick as the M3 in a straight line, but appears to be demonstrably quicker around a road course. Down on power to weight but a better overall handler? Lauded by road-testers as being a marvelously malleable machine on track? Is that sophisticated?

Sophistication, to me, is not an objective measure. It is a subjective feel of precision, combined with the right looks, feel, sounds, etc. Same with wine. You can not objectively describe a better wine, but you know it when you taste it.

The ZL-1 and Z28 Camaros speak for themselves. Very quick in a straight line, and perhaps quicker than that around a road course.

None of these Camaros are just brutal musclecars. They each seem to be better overall track machines than the current M3.

Modern muscle cars can handle. There is no doubt about that. I would say the modern muscle car is about performance only combined with a splash of nostalgia (back to the days of when people my age were in high school ) I want more than just good track performance.

Your dismissal of these machines as high-schooler cars is just silly.

When I was in high school, Camaros and Mustangs were the cars we all wanted.

Lastly, your characterization of your m3 as a "precision tool" is equally silly. In my opinion, the current M3 may be the best overall compromise car ever built by man, but its persistent understeer and flaming brakes after 4-5 laps on track are a testament to the fact that's it's just too big and heavy to qualify as a precision tool. Likewise, the Audi S6 is hardly the "Sledgehammer". Terrific car, but as you may remember, that appellation was originally given to an aftermarket Mercedes model way back when, and I'd say the current E63 S model may more properly deserve the current title.

My descriptives are relative. Of course there are far sharper cars, as well as more purely brutal big cars. That goes without saying. However for what I am looking for, the M3 is the more precision tool, and the S6 is the bigger more brutal machine. And I think you know quite well what i am looking for in cars.
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      12-03-2013, 03:48 PM   #104
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Maybe he didn't want to post a full discourse here in this post, and from his past posts, I'd say your characterization of "prejudices" is perhaps wrongfully interpreted for "wisdom" (a combination of knowledge and experience) with a hint of sarcasm tossed in.
So you're taking the slightly longer way around to say you agree with him.

If that's the case, my comments apply to you as well.
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      12-03-2013, 06:43 PM   #105
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So you're taking the slightly longer way around to say you agree with him.

If that's the case, my comments apply to you as well.
I agree with a lot what he is saying in his post #103.
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      12-03-2013, 08:08 PM   #106
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Yet loses to the E9X. Did the Cadillac suddenly get amazingly better or did BMW dumb down the F30? All reports say they dumbed down the F30 Sorry, but the F-sport Lexus kids try to make the same comparisons.
Both the Cadillac and Lexus have gotten amazingly better, while the F30 got dumbed down.

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What road testers? The totally unbiased ones from a Camaro forum that have never driven anything but Fbodies and Corvettes?
Yeah, well, you got me there. I meant the known Chevy-lover road testers from:

Car & Driver, Motor trend, Road & Track, Automobile, Popular Mechanics, Edmunds, Fox News, Motor Week and others.


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Not really all that fast in a straight line. Good around a track until the ZL1 gets heatsoak and then its about the same as a stock 335i.
Good to know about the heat soak. Really.

Then again, will the heat soak come on before the M3's brake pedal has hit the floor, or after?

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I'd not consider any of them 'brutal' or muscle cars anymore. But considering you're last statement....
Wasn't addressing you with my comment.

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Have you even driven a 1LE Camaro before? It's not all that impressive. The Ford track-pack on a bone stock Mustang GT is a better handling car. The whole Camaro platform still suffers from a terrible IRS. All of them get by with very stiff suspension and great tires and do well in spite of how terrible their steering is. You're HIGH if you think a 1LE will touch a M3 on a track.
I have in fact driven a 1LE Camaro, and was very impressed. More so than the Track Pack 5.0 Mustang I drove, which I must say I also enjoyed.

Hate the gunslit windows on the Camaro, neither car can hold a candle to the M3's interior or overall build quality - but I was talking performance.

The fact is, a 1LE Camaro will be a bit quicker around a given track than a Boss 302, and both will trailer an M3.

Check out FastestLaps.com and make the comparisons. At VIR, for instance, the 1LE went a 3:01.50 to the M3's 3:05.40, and at the Streets of Willow, it was a 1:22.70 to the bimmer's 1:27.67. The Boss 302 was also faster than the M, but not quite as quick as the Camaro.

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And you want to talk about overheating brakes from 4-5 laps and other such nonsense? You DO realize the ZL1 gets heatsoak really badly right? I've seen them run slower than V6 Mustang times at the track. You're calling a 3500lb car too heavy but lauding 4000lb+ tanks as some kind of track car? REALLY? lol
REALLY.

I will say it again. The fact is that the 1LE Camaro is a bit quicker around a road course than the Boss 302, and both will trailer the M3. Period.

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I think they're great vehicles, but when you've actually driven them and cross-shopped them, you'll understand. You're going off half-assed 'Lightning Lap' numbers like the rest of the poseurs as some sort of fact. Seriously, go test drive a real M3 coupe and then test drive a 1LE or ZL1 Camaro back to back; it's a silly comparison.
First of all, Lightning Lap numbers are far from half-assed. They're a genuine attempt to compare cars in a fairly well controlled environment. Second, I have several hours in M3 coupes, the last hour or so a couple of months back in my son's 2013 Competition-Packaged six-speed car. Great car, but I liked the turn-in on the 1LE Camaro a bit better. Third, you can call me a poseur, but unless you can trump 14 seasons of driving schools, the first few as a student, and the rest as an instructor, you might want to reconsider.

Of course, I haven't turned a wheel on track since 2009, so I'm encrusted in rust, but give me a couple of sessions, and I will give you a LOT of trouble on a given road course. Poseur indeed.

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The Z06 outran a GT3 RS in the Lightning Lap, I guess that means the Z06 handles better right? LOL.
Don't know. The Z06s were a handful, but apparently the ZR1 upgrade parts available as an option really tame this beast.
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      12-03-2013, 09:06 PM   #107
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      12-03-2013, 09:19 PM   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
In that context, check out the Cadillac ATS, which absolutely blows away the current 3 series in overall handling.
Yet loses to the E9X. Did the Cadillac suddenly get amazingly better or did BMW dumb down the F30? All reports say they dumbed down the F30 Sorry, but the F-sport Lexus kids try to make the same comparisons.

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No, it's not quite as quick as the M3 in a straight line, but appears to be demonstrably quicker around a road course. Down on power to weight but a better overall handler? Lauded by road-testers as being a marvelously malleable machine on track? Is that sophisticated?
What road testers? The totally unbiased ones from a Camaro forum that have never driven anything but Fbodies and Corvettes?

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The ZL-1 and Z28 Camaros speak for themselves. Very quick in a straight line, and perhaps quicker than that around a road course.
Not really all that fast in a straight line. Good around a track until the ZL1 gets heatsoak and then its about the same as a stock 335i.

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None of these Camaros are just brutal musclecars. They each seem to be better overall track machines than the current M3.
I'd not consider any of them 'brutal' or muscle cars anymore. But considering you're last statement....

Have you even driven a 1LE Camaro before? It's not all that impressive. The Ford track-pack on a bone stock Mustang GT is a better handling car. The whole Camaro platform still suffers from a terrible IRS. All of them get by with very stiff suspension and great tires and do well in spite of how terrible their steering is. You're HIGH if you think a 1LE will touch a M3 on a track.

And you want to talk about overheating brakes from 4-5 laps and other such nonsense? You DO realize the ZL1 gets heatsoak really badly right? I've seen them run slower than V6 Mustang times at the track. You're calling a 3500lb car too heavy but lauding 4000lb+ tanks as some kind of track car? REALLY? lol

I think they're great vehicles, but when you've actually driven them and cross-shopped them, you'll understand. You're going off half-assed 'Lightning Lap' numbers like the rest of the poseurs as some sort of fact. Seriously, go test drive a real M3 coupe and then test drive a 1LE or ZL1 Camaro back to back; it's a silly comparison.

The Z06 outran a GT3 RS in the Lightning Lap, I guess that means the Z06 handles better right? LOL.
I think your heat soaking issues should be with the GT500 not the ZL1... The ZL1 has considerable amounts of built in cooling for the brakes going on. GT500 beats ZL1 on lap 1 but gets slower and slower every lap and the ZL1 runs with in 2 tenths lap after lap. Ask Randy probst. He compared the two. No heat soaking issues at all with the ZL1.
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      03-24-2014, 09:45 PM   #109
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      03-24-2014, 09:51 PM   #110
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Z28 is a track beast.
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