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      04-02-2013, 07:01 PM   #67
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With a small amount of boost you can be pushing some great hp numbers
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      04-02-2013, 07:42 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crabman View Post
Nope, real world the M3 cant even come close to its numbers but the Camaro can actually beat them in owners hands and those numbers are better in a heavier car with worse aero which was the excuse you made with the M3 compared to the Corvette.
That's just not true. I get in the M3 exactly the stated city mileage, and that's driving as fast as I dare. 14 mpg.

And when driving a lot of highways in Europe, I got 21-22 mpg, so actually better than stated.

Forget anecdotal evidence man, it's not reliable.

Quote:
No, exotics are not built to any cost, they must return a profit and every item in the car is built to a price.
Not really. Nobody cares that an F12 costs $337k or $343k, these companies are operating more on a principle of perception more thn the principles of scale economics you are used to when dealing with a product like the M3 or Corvette.

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None of those engines you mentioned matches the LS7 for size and weight while producing its power at its efficiency. None.
My apologies, i was comparing the 911 to the new regular Vette. I guess you were refering to the old Z06? In that case, please consider the 911 turbo, or the GTR.

The reason nobody can compare it to an engine "of the same size" is because nobody else makes engines of that size. Most everybody else went to turbocharging for this level of performance, emissions and fuel consumption. Just a different choice.

But if we're comparing the performance envelopes, there are cars which do similarly, or better, in all respects.

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Reading comprehension helps. I never said technological tour de force I said technologically developed, please use a dictionary and then look at just the research and development in the heads alone on the various Chevy small blocks and get back to me.
Actually you said some of the most technologically developed and cutting edge. So stick with the reading comprehension too, won't be wasted.

How the hell can you make any claims about which heads are more technologically developed, when you simply don't have any data from other manufacturers?? You just want to brag about how many man hours Chevy engineers have used, without actually knowing what the industry norm is for performance engines.

As for cutting edge, I just don't see it. What is so technologically special on these engines that is not present in any others, or in extremely few others?

Quote:
Also I was responding to Otto's post about the LS7 being underpowered for a 7 liter. It is not but he doesn't know what he is looking at. The Chevy V8s were not developed in a taxed displacement world which is the only place power per liter matters because power per liter has no functional meaning in the real world with a road going car.
But it is. If its so easy, and there are no adverse effects to adding 100BHP to the LS7, then why didn't Chevy already sell it like that? after all, they were definitely creating the most sporting car they knew how, right?

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When you figure out what engine can match an LS7 you get back to me. So far you have failed miserably with the Porsche engines but maybe you haven't had enough fail yet? Just find one that can match its packaging and produce its power at its efficiency as installed in any car at any price. I would say get back to me when you do but there isn't one so you wont. lol You can argue it all you want but there is no getting around it.
911 turbo, 911 GT2, Nissan GT-R, McLaren MP4-12 (last one is a little bit worse fuel economy).


Am i getting closer?
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Last edited by adc; 04-02-2013 at 07:55 PM.
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      04-02-2013, 07:47 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mookster View Post


U went hard on him
... And what would he do without some brown nose applauding his every word, while at the same time making absolutely no valuable contribution to this forum, ever, at all.

Way to go...
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      04-03-2013, 10:07 AM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adc View Post
What part of Camaro SS were you having trouble with?

426 HP, close to 3900 pounds. Nearly 20% better mileage than the S65, as stated.
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      04-03-2013, 10:14 AM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krnnerdboy View Post

OK, what part of "Camaro SS" were you having trouble with. Was it "Camaro" or "SS".

Sheesh. Do you guys move your lips when you read?

Bruce

PS - Hint: The SS is NOT the ZL1 or Z28. Get it?
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      04-03-2013, 01:28 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ottoblotto View Post
Cmon, you know its underpowered for its ginormous size...
That's the best part about the Chevy small block. It's relatively light and small no matter the displacement.

The only engine that comes close to its combination of size, weight, and power is the Mercedes 63 AMG engine, and its far more expensive.

Pretty small once its sitting out of the engine bay.

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      04-03-2013, 01:35 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adc View Post


But it is. If its so easy, and there are no adverse effects to adding 100BHP to the LS7, then why didn't Chevy already sell it like that? after all, they were definitely creating the most sporting car they knew how, right?
?
There are no adverse affects to the engine but emissions and drivability are impacted. A small performance cam, headers and ported heads will put down at least 550whp. If you want to get really aggressive, I've seen LS7s knock on 630whp with an H/C package.

Not very realistic for them to make someting like that.

However, the 427 block mated to the new LT1 top end could easily eclipse 550hp at the crank if Chevy were to go that route. I don't think they will though.
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      04-03-2013, 06:24 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
What part of Camaro SS were you having trouble with?

426 HP, close to 3900 pounds. Nearly 20% better mileage than the S65, as stated.
I don't know, that website doesn't really offer model details. So there are some versions of the Camaro which have better fuel economy, and some which have worse. I have no idea which is which...

But in any case the post I originally replied to was about the LS7 engine.
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      04-04-2013, 06:50 AM   #75
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I can't imagine myself driving a pony car, but this would be the car if i wanted to drive one. Such a great package.
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      10-17-2013, 12:01 PM   #76
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Z/28 time at the ring is no joke. Will new F8x be with in 20 seconds of the Z/28?
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      10-17-2013, 03:09 PM   #77
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      10-17-2013, 03:13 PM   #78
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Some of you just cant give credit where credit it due. Chevy makes a track dedicated car (something BMW will never even attempt) and all I see is "interior herp derp!" "luxury!! herp derp! refinement herp derp!" thats not what this car is about. This car is too hard for most of you and a lot of drivers here couldnt handle it. I would DD this car and love it.
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      10-17-2013, 03:16 PM   #79
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this thing is such a beast. what a bargain, too. I'm gonna have to test drive one.
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      10-17-2013, 03:24 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JAM3S View Post
Some of you just cant give credit where credit it due. Chevy makes a track dedicated car (something BMW will never even attempt) and all I see is "interior herp derp!" "luxury!! herp derp! refinement herp derp!" thats not what this car is about. This car is too hard for most of you and a lot of drivers here couldnt handle it. I would DD this car and love it.
+1. I'm a car enthusiast not a bmw enthusiast. As an American I'm glad Chevy is putting out something that can at least compete performance wise.
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      10-17-2013, 07:45 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Necromancer View Post
Z/28 time at the ring is no joke. Will new F8x be with in 20 seconds of the Z/28?
7:57? Quite possible, maybe even a bit faster than that. E92 M3 did it in 8:05 if not mistaken.
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      10-17-2013, 07:57 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmk08 View Post
+1. I'm a car enthusiast not a bmw enthusiast. As an American I'm glad Chevy is putting out something that can at least compete performance wise.
This.
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      10-17-2013, 08:52 PM   #83
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BMW is crap. They've completely neglected the performance aspect of the community and I view them just as a sportier Lexus. Maybe they'll release a $150k lightweight M3 with some M-performance stickers.
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      10-17-2013, 09:00 PM   #84
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The key thing to keep in mind about the 2014 Camaro Z/28 is that it isn't just another crosstown rival for the Ford Mustang. Sure, the 1LE and Boss 302 are perfectly matched for a fight, and heavyweights ZL1 and Shelby GT500 equally so, but really, there isn't a clear competitor from Ford or even Chrysler for this even more extreme Z/28. (At least, not yet.) Chevy is dead set on testing new waters with its track-focused Z/28, and firmly states that this car is not to be treated as a daily driver. To that end, Chevy is extending the factory warranty on the Z/28 to include track use the company stands behind the full performance capabilities of this car.

Chevy has taken out everything that wasn't a legal necessity or didn't improve performance. Of course, the larger V8 engine adds some heft, as do added bits of aero and the higher caliber chassis, suspension, braking and wheel/tire components. The end result, however, is a Camaro that weighs 3,837 pounds some 300 pounds less than a ZL1 coupe and has enough added aero to produce 440 pounds of downforce at 150 miles per hour. The functional aerodynamic enhancements include a front splitter, large rear spoiler, hood vent, reshaped rockers and Gurney lip fender flares.

More than 190 of the Z/28's parts are unique, with each one focused on solely making this thing the most capable track car in the Camaro lineup. In addition to the LS7 tweaks, the Z/28 marks the first application of a dry sump lubrication system in a Camaro, designed to better handle frequent high revving and the higher g-forces of the Z/28's improved cornering ability. Of course, things get super hot under extreme driving conditions, so to keep it all in check, there's a liquid-to-liquid cooling system for the engine oil (identical to the system used in the Corvette ZR1), and the transmission and differential are kept cool with a high-capacity liquid-to-air system that's similar to what Chevy uses in the Camaro ZL1.
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      10-17-2013, 09:40 PM   #85
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Hard to beat 305s and carbon brakes. And good god. 7 liters!! At this rate the LS will be bigger than the Vipers V10 in 5-10 more years
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      11-29-2013, 10:44 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ottoblotto View Post

My problem is with GM.
-They still will use inferior materials that costs less to produce so interior will reak of plastic junk.
-I am not surprised they are using a pre-existing motor so 1)No R&D Costs. 2)Already have parts manufactures contracted out. 3)Costs less when you can make one item for multiple cars.

Its all standard money making bs being fed to the GM die hards and it will be gobbled up by the truckloads keeping the shitty non-consumer oriented megalomaniacal cogs turning. Im sure this car will cost less to manufacture than the standard Coupe does now. They will high five themselves to the bank. And then the recalls will start...

For the price, get a good euro car and be much happier.
This of all places, is probably not the best forum to discuss the good and the bad on GM/Ford products, especially muscle cars, though I see there are some HP aficionados here.

I think you miss the point on why GM and Ford make cars like the Mustang and Camaro. These cars are not intended to rival BMW, Lexus, Audi and Mercedes in terms of styling, looks, refinement, and quality....these muscle cars are nearly 100% performance oriented and are supposed to give you the best bang for your buck.

Parts, especially the interior, are cheaper to keep maintenance/repairs down and maintain a MSRP that is within range of a whole spectrum of consumers (not just those in the higher tax brackets). For the Z/28 specifically, GM is using an engine variant that's been around for a bit...true..but this engine's performance and reliability has been refined and proven quite extensively. So again this helps keep maintenance and repair costs down for the likely buyers of this car. And BMW has done this same exact thing with the E90 M3 and the S65 engine (been in service since 07), so I dont know why you make a big deal of GM doing it.

Please don't throw the "recall" card at GM....Let's be honest, BMW and nearly all the other Euro cars have had their fair share of recalls and hiccups especially when coming out with new models/generations of cars.

There is nothing that is truly cutting edge about the camaro Z/28 and the other muscle cars...It's a very finely tuned and well designed track car. What is truly amazing is that cars like this can compete with and, in the case of the Z/28, outperform Euro cars that easily cost 2-3x as much....despite the fact that these muscle cars use cheaper parts and older engines...I think that's amazing and a true sign of the product's quality!

Take it for what it is. They are different classes of cars...Though I cant help but smile whenever I see a S/C american muscle car just totally kick ass on the Nurburgring and beat out a bunch of expensive cars. And american muscle in general, especially on the GM side, has been getting much better at handling, which was traditionally their main disadvantage when paired against euro cars.

Last edited by Patronus86; 11-30-2013 at 02:59 AM. Reason: typo
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      11-30-2013, 12:05 AM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gthal
I really hope BMW steps up with the M4... I bet this car will be silly fast. I don't like the looks but that's subjective... objectively, this car will be a beast and at a similar weight to the E92 M3 at 3,800lbs.
I won't disagree that this car will be a beast around the track, but how is the weight anywhere near an E92 M3...?

Car & Driver just did their first review, and they weighed the test vehicle at 3850 lbs (curb weight). By comparison, the E92 M3 they weighed (in the M3 vs C63 review; they've done several so I just picked one for comparison) was recorded at 3552 lbs.

Maybe your standard for "close" is different than mine, but I feel-in general--that a lot of people on these forums confuse BMW's quoted weights, which are EU weights (added 75 kilograms--about 165 pounds--for driver and cargo, 90% fuel) with curb weights for American cars (no weight added for driver or cargo, 100% fuel). We need to make sure we're comparing apples to apples.
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      12-02-2013, 07:50 PM   #88
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Bottom line... M3/M4 gets crushed by the Z/28... And for quite a bit less $$$ might I add. M3's are so overrated by their owners cause their crusty noses are in the air and they can't see past them. M3's are a dime a dozen here in Charlotte. I see no less then 5-6 of them every time I jump in my car. I bet seeing a Z/28 on the road will be a lot fewer and further between.
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