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      03-30-2013, 12:00 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by DaFish
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Originally Posted by bluekn8286 View Post
Looks like Chevrolet brought out a surprise during the NY Auto Show...the Z28 Camaro!! It looks pretty nice and has some awesome standard equipment. Just wanted to get everyone's thoughts on this.

Here is a link to the Car and Driver article:

http://www.caranddriver.com/news/201...-unveiled-news
The Camero looks ok on the outside.... have you sat in one? It is just the most awful car on the inside. The dash, quality of the materials, the seemingly metal covered interior doors, the stupid looking dash, the ridiculous center console, buttons, materials..... it just looks like absolute crap.

The high end ZL1 and others are truly great performers, and handle well. I will give them that... but this is not something I could sit in day in and day out and enjoy - full stop. the bunkered feeling is not for me either, I am short, and it just doesn't work. I want to see where I am going, and see all around me.

I'll stick to my BMW and wait for the M4.
I don't think the discussion was ever about how nice the Z28 interior was, I totally agree with the fact that they are pure crap when it comes to fit, finish, design and material quality!

The discussion was about performance and the Z28 will have that in barrels!

When it comes to the entire package, the M3 will be better than a Z28 hands down, but when it comes to performance I think the Z28 will win that competition quite easily!!!!
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      03-30-2013, 05:52 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast.
This is one of those strings that keep me in this forum.

Chevy announces a serious-as-a-heart-attack race car, and this string is filled with posts about the looks, and 15K for replacement brakes is a lot for a Camaro, and the power per liter isn't very high, and who would buy it if A/C isn't standard, and...

OK, there were some posts by more informed people (and you know who you are), but really, this forum is often a laugh a minute...

Listen, did you guys miss the part about no sound deadening? That piece alone means this car just won't be street driven, smog-legal or not.

In any event, this car will very likely be knocking on the below-7:30 door at the 'Ring, but nobody in their right mind would use it as a daily driver.

Think ACR Viper, or somesuch. Not to be compared with the M3 in any way.

Bruce
It is clear it is a track only vehicle. However, why would I purchase a 3700 lb vehicle that has poor visibility and an ls7 when I can buy a 3100 lb vehicle with an ls7...? That is a laughable comment? Clearly if its track only then you are not a pizza delivery boy. Why not get the better car?
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      03-30-2013, 07:44 PM   #25
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Pretty cool car. I wonder how much weight savings will remain after you add A/C and a radio.

On paper I prefer the Z28, but to live with on a regular basis, I'd probably choose a ZL1.
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      03-30-2013, 07:51 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by crabman View Post
Disagree, not all of us grew up in a time when not having butt warmers was considered roughing it. I would happily roll with this as a toy car. It's what I'm hoping for with the Z06.
+1 and you can take out the electric seats, power windows, power steering and GPS.... ala BMW M3 E30 true sports car!
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      03-30-2013, 08:31 PM   #27
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Let's not forget that the Camaro and Mustang (and alike) are MUSCLE CARS. They are about looks and speed at modest prices. They are loud and raunchy. The are not, and never were, about refinement, sophistication and luxury.

The Z28 seems to be a true track beast. GM should be applauded for this.
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      03-31-2013, 02:02 AM   #28
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Its not that GM is trying to build a track oriented car, they are continuing with their process of decontenting their vehicles and using "Its for the track" as an excuse. The only impressive thing about it is the lack of an automatic... Any true enthusiast would remove the a/c or sound deading material or whatever for weight reduction themselves, but GM does it for you, reduces their overhead by several $$$ and then charges a premium by stuffing an underpowered 7 liter (really?!? 500hp??? Reminds me of their 5.7l V8 Diesels that produced 120hp!) motor and calling it a Z28. Its all about money for them. "Pricing has yet to be announced, but GM told us at the New York show that it will be the most expensive Camaro."
There is no enthusiast love there. GM should have listened to Bob Lutz many years ago: "It's time to stop the dominance of the number-crunchers, living in their perfect, predictable, financially-projected world (who fail, time and again), and give the reins to the 'product guys'...those with vision and passion for the customers and their product or service." Sounds brilliant doesnt it? Well they should have listened to him. Instead they didnt, they produce shitty cars like the Aztek or Saturns, use subpar materials for the interior, overcharge/lie/screw their customers and then require a bailout from the govt. They are only a shell of the awesomeness they were 40-50 years ago.
GM should have died off many years ago.
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      03-31-2013, 03:42 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ottoblotto
Its not that GM is trying to build a track oriented car, they are continuing with their process of decontenting their vehicles and using "Its for the track" as an excuse. The only impressive thing about it is the lack of an automatic... Any true enthusiast would remove the a/c or sound deading material or whatever for weight reduction themselves, but GM does it for you, reduces their overhead by several $$$ and then charges a premium by stuffing an underpowered 7 liter (really?!? 500hp??? Reminds me of their 5.7l V8 Diesels that produced 120hp!) motor and calling it a Z28. Its all about money for them. "Pricing has yet to be announced, but GM told us at the New York show that it will be the most expensive Camaro."
There is no enthusiast love there. GM should have listened to Bob Lutz many years ago: "It's time to stop the dominance of the number-crunchers, living in their perfect, predictable, financially-projected world (who fail, time and again), and give the reins to the 'product guys'...those with vision and passion for the customers and their product or service." Sounds brilliant doesnt it? Well they should have listened to him. Instead they didnt, they produce shitty cars like the Aztek or Saturns, use subpar materials for the interior, overcharge/lie/screw their customers and then require a bailout from the govt. They are only a shell of the awesomeness they were 40-50 years ago.
GM should have died off many years ago.
So how do you feel about the m3?
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      03-31-2013, 09:43 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ottoblotto View Post
Its not that GM is trying to build a track oriented car, they are continuing with their process of decontenting their vehicles and using "Its for the track" as an excuse. The only impressive thing about it is the lack of an automatic... Any true enthusiast would remove the a/c or sound deading material or whatever for weight reduction themselves, but GM does it for you, reduces their overhead by several $$$ and then charges a premium by stuffing an underpowered 7 liter (really?!? 500hp??? Reminds me of their 5.7l V8 Diesels that produced 120hp!) motor and calling it a Z28. Its all about money for them. "Pricing has yet to be announced, but GM told us at the New York show that it will be the most expensive Camaro."
There is no enthusiast love there. GM should have listened to Bob Lutz many years ago: "It's time to stop the dominance of the number-crunchers, living in their perfect, predictable, financially-projected world (who fail, time and again), and give the reins to the 'product guys'...those with vision and passion for the customers and their product or service." Sounds brilliant doesnt it? Well they should have listened to him. Instead they didnt, they produce shitty cars like the Aztek or Saturns, use subpar materials for the interior, overcharge/lie/screw their customers and then require a bailout from the govt. They are only a shell of the awesomeness they were 40-50 years ago.
GM should have died off many years ago.
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      03-31-2013, 10:24 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by muskamatt View Post
It is clear it is a track only vehicle. However, why would I purchase a 3700 lb vehicle that has poor visibility and an ls7 when I can buy a 3100 lb vehicle with an ls7...? That is a laughable comment? Clearly if its track only then you are not a pizza delivery boy. Why not get the better car?
That is the #1 thing about all the Camaros. They're too big and too heavy and the visibility is terrible. If you stuff a diamond in a turd, it's still a turd. I would actually be quite interested in the ZL1 but I can' get past the shell.
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      03-31-2013, 10:35 AM   #32
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http://www.gm.com/article.content_pa...echnology.html

Yeah its big & heavy but it will show its taillights to any stock E9x M3 at the track.Just wait till the C7 Z06 arrives.It is great to see that GM is realizing that there is a market for properly equipped track day cars from the factory.BMW needs to follow this lead.
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      03-31-2013, 12:59 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ottoblotto View Post
Its not that GM is trying to build a track oriented car, they are continuing with their process of decontenting their vehicles and using "Its for the track" as an excuse. The only impressive thing about it is the lack of an automatic... Any true enthusiast would remove the a/c or sound deading material or whatever for weight reduction themselves, but GM does it for you, reduces their overhead by several $$$ and then charges a premium by stuffing an underpowered 7 liter (really?!? 500hp??? Reminds me of their 5.7l V8 Diesels that produced 120hp!) motor and calling it a Z28. Its all about money for them. "Pricing has yet to be announced, but GM told us at the New York show that it will be the most expensive Camaro."
There is no enthusiast love there. GM should have listened to Bob Lutz many years ago: "It's time to stop the dominance of the number-crunchers, living in their perfect, predictable, financially-projected world (who fail, time and again), and give the reins to the 'product guys'...those with vision and passion for the customers and their product or service." Sounds brilliant doesnt it? Well they should have listened to him. Instead they didnt, they produce shitty cars like the Aztek or Saturns, use subpar materials for the interior, overcharge/lie/screw their customers and then require a bailout from the govt. They are only a shell of the awesomeness they were 40-50 years ago.
GM should have died off many years ago.
Couldn't disagree more. American cars are becoming more and more solid performers these days. What they have not done to any great degree is to combine performance with premium refinement and luxury, but that is not the American car persona. American performance is about muscle. It is about big pecs, big biceps and chugging beers. It is not about fine athleticism and Johnny Walker Blue Label....know what I mean?

As far as expensive, even at over $60k, it is much less than an M3, and is likely expensive due to it's true performance oriented equipment.

It is a different type of car and a different type of appeal. It has nothing whatsoever in common with the German premium brands. The only reason that we are even comparing these cars is because for a number of years, it was the Germans that had dominated the non-exotic performance market, and now the Americans are well in the game.

Still, if you seek refinement, look elsewhere.
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      03-31-2013, 01:50 PM   #34
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Youre correct, they are slowly coming back. But if they hadnt gotten lost in the muck of SixSigma and cheaper materials they would have come back MANY years ago and they would have continued to dominate the performance market like they did in their heyday.
Im no expert, I just call it as I see it. GM had the cars, they only had to make them better instead of worse, Re: 2004 Pontiac GTO (dont get bent, its just my opinion, but sales were lacking and it looked like a grand prix).
Now everyone is finally bouncing back, making better cars (Re: Dodge Viper, C7 Corvette ), but GM has not learned their lesson and are still quietly removing standard equipment from their models and making them options that cost more $$$ the following year. Youd think they would wait awhile to stick it to their customers again. That is was bothers me about them. I love classic American muscle cars.
And I was not comparing their 7 liter fanboi reach-around to my beautiful, refined european work of art.
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      03-31-2013, 02:10 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ottoblotto View Post
Youre correct, they are slowly coming back. But if they hadnt gotten lost in the muck of SixSigma and cheaper materials they would have come back MANY years ago and they would have continued to dominate the performance market like they did in their heyday.
Im no expert, I just call it as I see it. GM had the cars, they only had to make them better instead of worse, Re: 2004 Pontiac GTO (dont get bent, its just my opinion, but sales were lacking and it looked like a grand prix).
Now everyone is finally bouncing back, making better cars (Re: Dodge Viper, C7 Corvette ), but GM has not learned their lesson and are still quietly removing standard equipment from their models and making them options that cost more $$$ the following year. Youd think they would wait awhile to stick it to their customers again. That is was bothers me about them. I love classic American muscle cars.
And I was not comparing their 7 liter fanboi reach-around to my beautiful, refined european work of art.


If thats what you call it
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      03-31-2013, 02:19 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swanson
Quote:
Originally Posted by ottoblotto View Post
Youre correct, they are slowly coming back. But if they hadnt gotten lost in the muck of SixSigma and cheaper materials they would have come back MANY years ago and they would have continued to dominate the performance market like they did in their heyday.
Im no expert, I just call it as I see it. GM had the cars, they only had to make them better instead of worse, Re: 2004 Pontiac GTO (dont get bent, its just my opinion, but sales were lacking and it looked like a grand prix).
Now everyone is finally bouncing back, making better cars (Re: Dodge Viper, C7 Corvette ), but GM has not learned their lesson and are still quietly removing standard equipment from their models and making them options that cost more $$$ the following year. Youd think they would wait awhile to stick it to their customers again. That is was bothers me about them. I love classic American muscle cars.
And I was not comparing their 7 liter fanboi reach-around to my beautiful, refined european work of art.


If thats what you call it
What a dick :
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      03-31-2013, 02:59 PM   #37
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[/b]

If thats what you call it
It was meant to lighten the mood, but ok.
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      03-31-2013, 03:24 PM   #38
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What a dick :
yes, you are
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      03-31-2013, 03:25 PM   #39
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+1 and you can take out the electric seats, power windows, power steering and GPS.... ala BMW M3 E30 true sports car!
I think the E30 M3 had power windows, heated seats, sunroofs, leather interiors, radio and AC etc. A true sports car you say?
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      04-01-2013, 09:07 PM   #40
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Before you knock those Chevy engines you might consider that an LS7 is on par in terms of weight and size with our S65 and produces nearly 100 more hp while simultaneously delivering much better mileage. Power per liter only matters if there are artificial bureaucratic restraints (per liter taxes) at work and the metric is actually meaningless as compared to power versus efficiency where those Chevy engines dominate.

A whole lot of people make the mistake of thinking that these engines are archaic but nothing could be further from the truth. They are some of the most technologically developed engines currently being sold and in every respect cutting edge.
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      04-01-2013, 09:24 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by krnnerdboy View Post
Agreed! Although butt warmers are nice on the long drive back from the track

I'm thinking, why didn't they go to this extreme with any model of the vette?
I'm hopeful this will change. The rumor mill has the C7Z being a track oriented car like this one and the ZR1 remaining the halo car. This because the Z06 was pretty much raped from below by the GS and above by the ZR1 with at one point more than 200 days of cars on the ground. Taking it hardcore gives it its own niche where its sales wont be cannibalized by its own brethren.
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      04-01-2013, 11:21 PM   #42
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Before you knock those Chevy engines you might consider that an LS7 is on par in terms of weight and size with our S65 and produces nearly 100 more hp while simultaneously delivering much better mileage.
Disagree on the mileage comment. The Corvette gets better mileage because it's much lighter and more aerodynamic probably. The Camaro, not so much.

Quote:
A whole lot of people make the mistake of thinking that these engines are archaic but nothing could be further from the truth. They are some of the most technologically developed engines currently being sold and in every respect cutting edge.
How so, exactly? what pioneering tour de force do these engines accomplish?

They are just now introducing technologies in the new Vette engines which have been employed elsewhere, or even inside GM, for decades. The truth is that they are engineered to a specific price point, so GM can make money when they install it in a $40,000 car. They aren't engineered to be the best, so while nobody should disparage them or deny that the end result is a good engine, I think it's fair that we shouldn't really either stand in awe at the magic involved. Because there isn't any.
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      04-02-2013, 01:27 AM   #43
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Disagree on the mileage comment. The Corvette gets better mileage because it's much lighter and more aerodynamic probably. The Camaro, not so much.



How so, exactly? what pioneering tour de force do these engines accomplish?

They are just now introducing technologies in the new Vette engines which have been employed elsewhere, or even inside GM, for decades. The truth is that they are engineered to a specific price point, so GM can make money when they install it in a $40,000 car. They aren't engineered to be the best, so while nobody should disparage them or deny that the end result is a good engine, I think it's fair that we shouldn't really either stand in awe at the magic involved. Because there isn't any.
The lack of technology is what is impressive about the LS7 it does well without all of the high technology that many engines use today. Another thing about it is the fact that for only a few thousand dollars an extra 100+ HP is easily attainable.

Don't get me wrong, I love the S65 and all of the technology it has and I love the 8400RPM redline, however to say the LS7 is not impressive is not sensible at all. With regards to the fuel economy, the LS7 is more efficient on fuel because it has more torque due to it's higher displacement and is able to pull an extremely tall 6th gear that allows the engine to lug along at about 1500 RPM at 60 MPH. No doubt, aerodynamics and weight make a bit of difference, but realize that GM is almost able to get the mileage of our M3's out of half ton pickups with LS V8's (AKA Vortec in P/U's).

Also have it be known that I hate current day GM vehicles! but...... When it comes to facts I will call a spade a spade, and the LS7 or all of the LS V8 engine family is extremely impressive due to the performance that GM is able to pull out of an old tech cam in block OHV engine design.
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      04-02-2013, 02:36 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adc View Post
Disagree on the mileage comment. The Corvette gets better mileage because it's much lighter and more aerodynamic probably. The Camaro, not so much.



How so, exactly? what pioneering tour de force do these engines accomplish?

They are just now introducing technologies in the new Vette engines which have been employed elsewhere, or even inside GM, for decades. The truth is that they are engineered to a specific price point, so GM can make money when they install it in a $40,000 car. They aren't engineered to be the best, so while nobody should disparage them or deny that the end result is a good engine, I think it's fair that we shouldn't really either stand in awe at the magic involved. Because there isn't any.
No, it will get substantially better mileage because the torque of the LS7 enables gearing that is more efficient.

All engines and everything manufactured by every automaker is made to a price point. Save the fanboy stuff for someone else because I don't subscribe. I would say that perhaps you should stand in awe of them because their combination of power, packaging, and weight is unrivaled by any manufacturer at any price. Don't believe it, try and find an engine from another automaker that is equally sized and of equal weight that can deliver the same economy while producing the same power as installed in another car. Any car, any price, any engine. You will fail.

I personally would not buy any Chevy except the Corvette and think that GM has done some of the worst cars made in recent history but I still have to recognize that their V8 development is now producing some truly great engines even if they don't have an important badge on them that makes them palatable to some folks here.
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