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      10-02-2014, 12:14 PM   #1
IzzyGray
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School me (exotics, P-cars, super cars)

So I've been driving my e92 M3 for the past year. Supercharged it about 6 months ago and have been happy with it. I daily drive my M3 and put a crapload of miles on her(about 25-28k/yr). I have a secondary SUV(Q5) that I take when I haul more crap or people.

As with any daily driven vehicle, I know that the M3 won't be in PERFECT condition. Chips and dings, wear and tear on seats(it's usually only me in the vehicle) but I've always wanted a weekend/track car that I can mod/tune for the track specifically and one I can keep immaculate since it's not daily driven. The M3 would probably be in my stable till it dies.

I'm waiting till some time in the middle or third quarter of next year to realize this dream but I'm starting my research and search now. Reading this forum, it seems many of you move on to a P-car and that was my first initial reaction. A GT3 would be an amazing addition and I've always looked up to that as a true driver's car. However, what are the alternatives? At the 150k or so price point, there's plenty to choose from. There's Ferrari options(I don't mind preowned) and obviously a McLaren MP4-12C(I'm drawn to this car like moth to a flame). The big caveat though is, although I won't drive the vehicle a lot and I'll try to mod/work on it as much as I can, I don't want one of those exotics/supercars that break down very often. Seems like Porsches -can- be daily driven and reliability is still extremely high. How does Ferrari, McLaren, etc. compare? I do think the a GT3 would be a lot less loud than a Ferrari or McLaren(but that could be a good or bad thing).

So what other alternatives have you guys looked at, other than another M3 when you want to "move up"? My price range would be anywhere from 120-180k. Thanks!
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      10-02-2014, 12:28 PM   #2
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Nissan GTR
Porsche 911 Turbo/GT3
Audi R8 V10

All those cars are reliable and easy enough to maintain and DD.
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      10-02-2014, 12:34 PM   #3
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Really depends on whether you truly want a driver's car (GT3 hands down wins) or a car that is going to be turning the most heads...though a GT3 still does plenty of the latter too.

I am not personally a fan of McLaren at all and would cross that off the list first.

IMO nothing besides a 458 Speciale comes close to a GT3 in terms of what youre getting, and at the prices (a friend of mine is selling his for 450K) it just isnt worth the money for a car that even with 600 hp vs the GT3's 475 hp performs bascially the same. The new GT3 RS may be on the high side of your price range and will surely make the Speciale look a bit un-speciale.

In that price range though, there are plenty of options. Seems like the best for being able to be driven hard and reliable, any 911, and R8 V10 and Gallardo.

IMO seems like these are your best options to get more specific:

997 GT3/RS - well in your price range, best manual transmission you can get, engine that is second to none, and suspension geometry/balance nothing will beat
997 GT2 - powerful, amazing handling ala GT3, raw and visceral
991 GT3 - simply the best driver's car at any price other than maybe a Cayman GTS.
R8 V10 - a bit dated now but fantastic car
Gallardo - similar to R8 but more of a head turner and still drives well. Just make sure you go for an updated model
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      10-02-2014, 07:47 PM   #4
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Anyone ever driven the newest gen Viper?
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      10-02-2014, 09:05 PM   #5
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Thanks for the replies guys. I would have to agree with the choices posted(R8, GT3, GTR, etc.). I've driven the GT3 and GTR and have to agree that the GT3 is a true driver's car(997). I definitely want to try the 991 as the rear vectoring(?) sounds like superb calibration, giving pluses of short and long wheelbase. Only real issue with the GT3 is the lackluster looks(subjective obviously). Why no love for the MP4-12C? I've not driven one so can't give an honest review of the drive but it's got killer looks. The Audi R8 is on the shortlist for sure, I just feel like the dashboard is too familiar to the Q5(which shouldn't be the case since it's 3 times the price). I might just be asking for everything to be too perfect but we are talking 6 digits worth of car too. I'll definitely give the Gallardo a look though!
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      10-03-2014, 12:30 AM   #6
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I would agree with all the statement below.
If I had a 150k just to allocate on vehicle, I would get GT3, used Ferrari 430 (Since Luca is out) or R8V10

McLaren MP4/12c..... No major reason except I can't stand Ron Dennis...






Quote:
Originally Posted by IzzyGray View Post
Thanks for the replies guys. I would have to agree with the choices posted(R8, GT3, GTR, etc.). I've driven the GT3 and GTR and have to agree that the GT3 is a true driver's car(997). I definitely want to try the 991 as the rear vectoring(?) sounds like superb calibration, giving pluses of short and long wheelbase. Only real issue with the GT3 is the lackluster looks(subjective obviously). Why no love for the MP4-12C? I've not driven one so can't give an honest review of the drive but it's got killer looks. The Audi R8 is on the shortlist for sure, I just feel like the dashboard is too familiar to the Q5(which shouldn't be the case since it's 3 times the price). I might just be asking for everything to be too perfect but we are talking 6 digits worth of car too. I'll definitely give the Gallardo a look though!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfinwolfsclothing View Post
Really depends on whether you truly want a driver's car (GT3 hands down wins) or a car that is going to be turning the most heads...though a GT3 still does plenty of the latter too.

I am not personally a fan of McLaren at all and would cross that off the list first.

IMO nothing besides a 458 Speciale comes close to a GT3 in terms of what youre getting, and at the prices (a friend of mine is selling his for 450K) it just isnt worth the money for a car that even with 600 hp vs the GT3's 475 hp performs bascially the same. The new GT3 RS may be on the high side of your price range and will surely make the Speciale look a bit un-speciale.

In that price range though, there are plenty of options. Seems like the best for being able to be driven hard and reliable, any 911, and R8 V10 and Gallardo.

IMO seems like these are your best options to get more specific:

997 GT3/RS - well in your price range, best manual transmission you can get, engine that is second to none, and suspension geometry/balance nothing will beat
997 GT2 - powerful, amazing handling ala GT3, raw and visceral
991 GT3 - simply the best driver's car at any price other than maybe a Cayman GTS.
R8 V10 - a bit dated now but fantastic car
Gallardo - similar to R8 but more of a head turner and still drives well. Just make sure you go for an updated model
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Originally Posted by F1Venom View Post
Nissan GTR
Porsche 911 Turbo/GT3
Audi R8 V10

All those cars are reliable and easy enough to maintain and DD.
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      10-03-2014, 08:27 AM   #7
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2013+ VIPER GTS ///end search. Before you dismiss it, drive it. Priced great, mod friendly and cheap to maintain (just change oil every 3,000mi plugs every 30kmi).

You want a supercar you can beat on and not worry about it. You want a exotic people gawk and questions, you want a hand built exotic, you want crazy NA power, you want mod ability, you want something that will not shit itself at the track, you want something you just want to keep driving? If all if that sounds like something you want in your life. You want to check out a Viper.

PM me...I can go into more and tell you all the in/outs of the cars from 1992 to 2015. :-)

The GTR does not make a good daily driver IMHOP. The damn thing is so clucky and has basically no sound deadening it feels very Econocar but its fast 0-100.

I will agree the R8 is a fine car that can be driven daily. The issue is luggage space...there isn't any. Also the blind spots are bad. But I would still buy one.

The 911 Turbo would be my top choice on your list (tied with Viper) The 911 turbo just does everything well. But i would never buy another one.

Don't forget to look at Aston Martin. If you are willing to give up performance nothing is build as nice as a AM. They goto crazy levels of refinement even the ash tray is made from frosted glass. Sick cars if you give up performance.

The Baby Mac....no feed back yet. I haven't driven one but from what I can tell they had reliability issue however it clear They took very good care if customers and they did do updates on earlier cars free of charge.

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      10-03-2014, 08:51 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Disturbed View Post
2013+ VIPER GTS ///end search. Before you dismiss it, drive it. Priced great, mod friendly and cheap to maintain (just change oil every 3,000mi plugs every 30kmi).

You want a supercar you can beat on and not worry about it. You want a exotic people gawk and questions, you want a hand built exotic, you want crazy NA power, you want mod ability, you want something that will not shit itself at the track? If all if that sounds like something you want in your life. You want to check out a Viper.

PM me...I can go into more and tell you all the in/outs of the cars from 1992 to 2015. :-)

The GTR does not make a good daily driver IMHOP. The damn thing is so clucky and has basically no sound deadening it feels very Econocar but its fast 0-100.

I will agree the R8 is a fine car that can be driven daily. The issue is luggage space...there isn't any. Also the blind spots are bad. But I would still buy one.

The 911 Turbo would be my top choice on your list (tied with Viper) The 911 turbo just does everything well. But i would never buy another one.

Don't forget to look at Aston Martin. If you are willing to give up performance nothing is build as nice as a AM. They goto crazy levels of refinement even the ash tray is made from frosted glass. Sick cars if you give up performance.

The Baby Mac....no feed back yet. I haven't driven one but from what I can tell they had reliability issue however it clear They took very good care if customers and they did do updates on earlier cars free of charge.
I agree at any price the best all around car ever built if a 911 turbo/S...but any 991 can be daily driven from a base Carrera to a GT3. Their build quality and dependability is second to none too.

I do not agree on aston though. Have never been impressed by the build quality. I see it as a slightly upscale volvo, which IMO isnt necessarily a good thing. I've also never heard good things about the build quality and reliability from owners who say they spend most of the time in the shop. Also, for their price, the performance is simply not worth the price no matter how pretty they look and how good they sound. I do find them along with the 911 to be some of the best looking cars on the road.

Viper is a good option too, but I dont have any experience with the new ones.
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      10-03-2014, 09:48 AM   #9
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I didn't even consider the Viper since I'm not an American car fan. And I'm not saying that out of blind faith for Euro makers, but just from disappointing past experience(I've had the gamut of different American luxury/muscle cars). I will however, give it a hard look because of your recommendation.

As for the Aston, my thoughts are more in line with Wolf's. Undoubtedly beautiful vehicles but reliability is an unknown(reports are conflicting from what I've found). It definitely tips towards the aesthetics end of the spectrum, giving up some of the performance.

I -really- want to like the 911(GT3 or Turbo S) but the looks are just meh. Not to mention only Porsche fans can tell the difference between a Boxster and a GT3. The MP4 however, that thing looks like a rocketship. Performance seems to be slightly better than the GT3(just reading from the owners boards but we all know how those can biased ;p) There were definitely reliability issues(small nagging issues) but yea McLaren takes care of them(while under warranty). I like to keep my cars for a while so I'm nervous that these little nagging issues become an ownership-long problem. I'm not super picky(small rattles don't bother me) but I would like my 6 digit car to have most of its functions ;p
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      10-03-2014, 10:03 AM   #10
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I would test drive the new viper before you buy it. I was a 100% into buying one two weeks ago, that is until I drove it. It's a fantastic car with a great motor. Now my opinion is coming from my 991 911c2s so your results might be different then mine coming from a different car. It's suspension is set up well but feels a little loose compared to my 911. The power is addicting and other than the looks is the main reason to get the car. Now the downside for me which was the deal breaker is the seating position is terrible. With the seat in the lowest possible position I had to bend down while sitting in order to see out the windshield. If you don't bend down you can not see far down the road at all, you can pretty much just see the rest bumper of the car in front of you. Now I am not a very tall guy only 6'-1" now maybe if you are short or have a small torso this might not be a problem for you. Literally everything else in this car is great so I can not see how dodge screwed up one of the most important parts of the car. Transmission is great as well I would place it just behind the s2000 in terms of feal.
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      10-03-2014, 10:05 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IzzyGray View Post
I didn't even consider the Viper since I'm not an American car fan. And I'm not saying that out of blind faith for Euro makers, but just from disappointing past experience(I've had the gamut of different American luxury/muscle cars). I will however, give it a hard look because of your recommendation.

As for the Aston, my thoughts are more in line with Wolf's. Undoubtedly beautiful vehicles but reliability is an unknown(reports are conflicting from what I've found). It definitely tips towards the aesthetics end of the spectrum, giving up some of the performance.

I -really- want to like the 911(GT3 or Turbo S) but the looks are just meh. Not to mention only Porsche fans can tell the difference between a Boxster and a GT3. The MP4 however, that thing looks like a rocketship. Performance seems to be slightly better than the GT3(just reading from the owners boards but we all know how those can biased ;p) There were definitely reliability issues(small nagging issues) but yea McLaren takes care of them(while under warranty). I like to keep my cars for a while so I'm nervous that these little nagging issues become an ownership-long problem. I'm not super picky(small rattles don't bother me) but I would like my 6 digit car to have most of its functions ;p
The 991 GT3 is a better car than the Mp412C. MP412C despite being a little faster in a straight (duh 620 hp 475 hp) the Porsche has the outright better handling, grip, steering, and IMO sounds much better too and you still have the best NA motor in the market. The Porsche is also faster on the track despite nearly 150 less hp (see link below). That alone should tell you how absurd the performance since the McLaren is a great performing car. And IMO I think the GT3 looks a lot better too inside and out having seen and been in both in person.

http://www.ferdinandmagazine.com/por...evo-track-test
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      10-03-2014, 10:06 AM   #12
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As for the exotics I would stay away other then the porsche and r8. I was always into exotics and wanted one but the thought of the unreliability and cost fix had really pushed them away for me
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      10-03-2014, 10:11 AM   #13
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Quote:
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As for the exotics I would stay away other then the porsche and r8. I was always into exotics and wanted one but the thought of the unreliability and cost fix had really pushed them away for me
This is the single biggest reason why I started this thread. To weed out what "super cars" or "exotics"(to me anything north of 100k kinda falls into one of these 2 categories) that are not reliable. So definitely thankful that I'm getting all this feedback.
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      10-03-2014, 10:24 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IzzyGray View Post
I didn't even consider the Viper since I'm not an American car fan. And I'm not saying that out of blind faith for Euro makers, but just from disappointing past experience(I've had the gamut of different American luxury/muscle cars). I will however, give it a hard look because of your recommendation.

As for the Aston, my thoughts are more in line with Wolf's. Undoubtedly beautiful vehicles but reliability is an unknown(reports are conflicting from what I've found). It definitely tips towards the aesthetics end of the spectrum, giving up some of the performance.

I -really- want to like the 911(GT3 or Turbo S) but the looks are just meh. Not to mention only Porsche fans can tell the difference between a Boxster and a GT3. The MP4 however, that thing looks like a rocketship. Performance seems to be slightly better than the GT3(just reading from the owners boards but we all know how those can biased ;p) There were definitely reliability issues(small nagging issues) but yea McLaren takes care of them(while under warranty). I like to keep my cars for a while so I'm nervous that these little nagging issues become an ownership-long problem. I'm not super picky(small rattles don't bother me) but I would like my 6 digit car to have most of its functions ;p
Thanks for atleast going and taking a look at Viper. I think you will be pleasantly surprised. The 2013+ fixed the interior complaints...just take a look at the GTS or TA. A "Standard" viper may not be what your looking for. Where are you located I will point you to a good dealer. I typically get tired of cars quickly but Viper held for 13 years and I will buy another (waiting for the SC'd beast...800hp+ Or maybe a Hurican).

Agree about AM. Damn I love the looks, but again its a car I can't bring myself to buy because I like to drive my cars hard. Stay away from Maserati if you want a reliable car. Also they are under powered IMHOP....but they sound great and look sexy.


Ever think of a Jaguar F-type R coupe??? Its leaps and bounds better than the XKRS and could make a good daily driver. I hated the limp noodle chassis in the XKRS but they def did much better in the F-type R. I was not much into Jag but I am keeping an eye on them now. I always try to have a open mind about cars and try to drive everything. Ok back to the F-Type R...The sounds that the F-type R makes are awesome. With the exhaust valves open it snarls crackles and pops. With it closed... Still aggressive but not loud in anyway. Its comfy and sporty as well. I forgot to put the F-type R in my 1st post.

I suspect you and I have similar taste in what we want a car to drive like and flaws we can live with. I am lucky enough to drive just about every car that comes out.
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      10-03-2014, 10:38 AM   #15
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The GTR is NOT a loud or clunky car. The 2009s, sure but the 2014 I've put 300 miles on which has summer tires is more comfortable and quieter than my M3. I was really worried about the noise level but it is not an issue at all!

As for the Viper, it is a bit of a harsher ride for a DD but it's amazing and the price cuts make it really appealing
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      10-03-2014, 10:55 AM   #16
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You're not going to get a very realistic sample of the reliability of these cars since most of us haven't owned them so it's just going to be second hand feedback.

And yes, it depends on what you are looking for. My take:
Outright performance -> GT3 variants
Genuine, extroverted, brash exoticness -> Ferrari, Lamborghini
Exotics that are a half step below on the look-at-me scale -> R8, McLaren
Semi-exotics that more understated but definitely still turn heads -> Aston Martin, Maserati, Lotus

I have had a bunch of Porsches and currently have two. When I wanted to get something a bit different, I went with the Aston Vantage and I love that car. Very different and not an outright beast in the performance department but certainly holds its own and feels much more special than any Porsche I have had. Also, for whatever reason, it's a car that no one seems to hate (unlike Porsches, Ferraris, BMWs, etc,...)
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      10-03-2014, 12:28 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Disturbed View Post
Thanks for atleast going and taking a look at Viper. I think you will be pleasantly surprised. The 2013+ fixed the interior complaints...just take a look at the GTS or TA. A "Standard" viper may not be what your looking for. Where are you located I will point you to a good dealer. I typically get tired of cars quickly but Viper held for 13 years and I will buy another (waiting for the SC'd beast...800hp+ Or maybe a Hurican).

Agree about AM. Damn I love the looks, but again its a car I can't bring myself to buy because I like to drive my cars hard. Stay away from Maserati if you want a reliable car. Also they are under powered IMHOP....but they sound great and look sexy.


Ever think of a Jaguar F-type R coupe??? Its leaps and bounds better than the XKRS and could make a good daily driver. I hated the limp noodle chassis in the XKRS but they def did much better in the F-type R. I was not much into Jag but I am keeping an eye on them now. I always try to have a open mind about cars and try to drive everything. Ok back to the F-Type R...The sounds that the F-type R makes are awesome. With the exhaust valves open it snarls crackles and pops. With it closed... Still aggressive but not loud in anyway. Its comfy and sporty as well. I forgot to put the F-type R in my 1st post.

I suspect you and I have similar taste in what we want a car to drive like and flaws we can live with. I am lucky enough to drive just about every car that comes out.
I'm definitely like you, in the sense that I'm open minded with cars. Although heritage plays a part, I've seen some major changes in direction for car manufacturers. Enough of a change that it went from "No way in hell would I buy a car from them" to "Hell yea, I'd drive it daily". I'm located in Milwaukee, WI but probably would have to go down for Chicago for a few of the test drives I want to take.

I -LOVE- the sound of the new Jag. I think they hit a home run with that one. In fact, I loved the direction that Tata Motors is taking with the LR/Jag marquee so much, I got a RR Evoque in 2013. Only problem is, I feel like the f-type is too similar to the M3 as far as car "levels" go. Not necessarily a cross shopped type of comparison but more like it's the same level of manufacturing(?)

I would love a Ferrari to be honest but I really feel like I need to be making more money to comfortably own one, lol.
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      10-03-2014, 02:19 PM   #18
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Quote:
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I'm definitely like you, in the sense that I'm open minded with cars. Although heritage plays a part, I've seen some major changes in direction for car manufacturers. Enough of a change that it went from "No way in hell would I buy a car from them" to "Hell yea, I'd drive it daily". I'm located in Milwaukee, WI but probably would have to go down for Chicago for a few of the test drives I want to take.

I -LOVE- the sound of the new Jag. I think they hit a home run with that one. In fact, I loved the direction that Tata Motors is taking with the LR/Jag marquee so much, I got a RR Evoque in 2013. Only problem is, I feel like the f-type is too similar to the M3 as far as car "levels" go. Not necessarily a cross shopped type of comparison but more like it's the same level of manufacturing(?)

I would love a Ferrari to be honest but I really feel like I need to be making more money to comfortably own one, lol.
Sent a PM.
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      10-03-2014, 03:55 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IzzyGray View Post
I'm definitely like you, in the sense that I'm open minded with cars. Although heritage plays a part, I've seen some major changes in direction for car manufacturers. Enough of a change that it went from "No way in hell would I buy a car from them" to "Hell yea, I'd drive it daily". I'm located in Milwaukee, WI but probably would have to go down for Chicago for a few of the test drives I want to take.

I -LOVE- the sound of the new Jag. I think they hit a home run with that one. In fact, I loved the direction that Tata Motors is taking with the LR/Jag marquee so much, I got a RR Evoque in 2013. Only problem is, I feel like the f-type is too similar to the M3 as far as car "levels" go. Not necessarily a cross shopped type of comparison but more like it's the same level of manufacturing(?)

I would love a Ferrari to be honest but I really feel like I need to be making more money to comfortably own one, lol.
Ferraris are overrated premaddona cars that arent built even close to as well as they should given their costs. A buddy of mine was the shop foreman for a very prestigous dealer and said they were the biggest pieces of sh$t.
There's a reason why they have to send a full team of techs with a car for a comparo to set the car up for each type of test, track or straight line whereas Porsche can take any car off production or out of a customer's hands and still beat the Ferrari 99% of the time as it does. Same reason why the GT3 was the Evo Car of the Year over the F12 and the GT3/RS over the 458.
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      10-03-2014, 05:30 PM   #20
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Good opinions already stated above. If you really have the mod bug, I'd steer towards the 911 Turbo S or GTR. Ferrari's and Lambo's are black holes once you start to mod or track them. The GT3 variants may not wow you as far as looks go but there are a cult of us that own them because there really is nothing else that drives quite like them. Amazing unique dynamics for both street and track. Pretty much bullet proof with some basic mods (happy to discuss that further offline).

I know a lot of people who go thru cars in this range quite often. Most pass thru the Ferrari's and Lambo's and try something else. Those that own GT3's tend to either never sell them or sell them and regret selling them....then buy another. Or more.

I personally have pretty bad automotive ADD and very few cars have lasted more than 2 years in my garage. My 997.2 GT3 is on year 3 and I have no plans to sell. Makes me smile every time I open the garage.

If you want to discuss further, feel free to PM.
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      10-03-2014, 05:47 PM   #21
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2011 997.2 Turbo S  [4.75]
2013 e92 M3  [4.55]
2013 BMW X5  [0.00]
If you want to buy a car and be done then yeah a 991 GT3 or McLaren are incredible cars.

I wanted a track car a little more powerful than a McLaren or GT3 (or really anything you could buy for under $500,000) and that could also be really fast at an airstrip and dragstrip - so I'm building what essentially is a Porsche GT2 RS but with PDK and AWD. I started with a 997.2 Turbo S and had BBI design a suspension system and GIAC/Champion with the power mods. This is pretty easy since the 911 variants including the RSR are homologated. All in cost of mods is maybe $25K so gets you on the low end of your budget if you start with a 2010 Turbo (non-S). Yeah I agree the 997.2 doesn't look like a supercar but what are you priorities? Nothing will be faster in that price range.
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Daily: 2013 e92 M3 DCT / ESS VT2 650 S/C / Akrapovic Evolution / StopTech BBK
Track/Airstrip: 2011 997.2 Turbo S PDK / GIAC FBO @ 24psi / BBi suspension build
Beater: 2013 X5
YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCT1...eoFBszPIK0gf9w
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      10-03-2014, 06:03 PM   #22
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My dream Porsche is a GT3, which I hope to own after my C63. For now, I think the C63 offers the right amount of sport and comfort.
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