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      03-22-2013, 03:37 PM   #45
Matski
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmarei View Post
my main issue is as long as you are following someone else
you will never be a leader, or a winner

i'm genuinely worried about BMW
everything they do now is following in Audi's foot steps
the whole m135i etc is basically what audi does with their S line
the 3/4 series is basically what audi did with the A4/A5
Audi never had an A4 coupe in the first place, I'm pretty sure they introduced the A5 in response to the 3 series coupe... although it's pointless debating who built what first, and even more about who used which naming strategy first, that's not an important race to be leading... what matters at the end of the day is the quality of the product... in that respect, there is not much between the Germans (BMW, Audi, Mercedes)... it's simply personal preference for the most part. The M135 is a great car... that's all that matters.. not which marketing department opened up a different chapter in their "Lets learn our ABC's" the fastest.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kmarei View Post
the only thing of note that they are doing is focusing on carbon fiber, but that's more a long term thing.
i'm not convinced the i3/i8 will amount to much
and i'm sure those cost a lot to develop
meanwhile i see less and less focus on the "ultimate driving machine" thing
with the electric power steering, turbocharging etc
you can't be all things to all people
if you cater to every single tiny little niche of a market
you are over extending yourself, and something will break
Project-i has been a massive gamble for BMW, and logically it should pay off, its the right thing to do, done the right way... whether or not the market will bite... I'm not so sure. Look at the other manufacturers, they put Electric drive trains in existing bodies -- COMPROMISE. They design an electric car the same way as they design a normal car, NO VISION... the i3 and i8 represent new thinking from the ground-up.. cars like the R8 etrone, and the SLS e-cell... they are just lip-service to the idea of electric power, compromised because they are trying to be something they are not - compromisation at this level will not wash..... but like I say, that doesn't mean to say the i3, i8 will sell

As for the "Ultimate Driving Machine", that slogan ALWAYS had holes in it... it's just people being nostalgic - and forgetting BMW have had bread and butter products that have been less than sporting for a long time.

I wouldn't worry about BMW if I were you. They appear to be the most free-thinking of the bunch... their strength has grown through their independence. This has led to them having to take certain paths, make certain decisions, and do things in a certain way... Check out the Audi Financial report 2012 - look at the Hundreds and hundreds of Millions of Euro's going back and forth between VW and it's other subsidiaries... The same with Daimler-Chrysler and Mercedes...

Do I think that BMW's line-up is perfect? No, there's lots I don't like, I would like a supercar, I would like more Z's, is their styling perfect? great? good? or even acceptable? sometimes no... but then I didn't fall for BMW because they made the best looking cars in the world.

BMW still make the great cars they always did... the M3, the M5, the M6, these still sit in the marketplace as those models always have done, we now have great cars like the M135i. The economical cars utilise BMW's great engineering skills, just targeted in a different way, and this era isn't unprecidented, now we have the 320 Efficient Dynamics, 30 years ago we had the 325eta... yes we have turbo-charging, but we also have governmental regulations to meet, and don't forget BMW used Turbo's to create one of the all-time classic BMW's the 2002 Turbo. Yes, we have GT models and Gran Coupe models that blur conventional lines... but there was a time when the lines had to be blurred for us to end up with the E30 Tourer, imagine now if BMW had not innovated and there'd never been tourers? -- there was a time when they had to make bubble cars and rear engined, motorcycle powered compacts in order to just survive... there was a time before BMW made SAV's, there was a time before 3/5/7...

Look past the nostalgia induced dogmas. If an Audi is the product you want to buy, then fine buy one, but if you buy an Audi because they had a naming strategy first, then you are a fool. BMW is a business, and they apply their principles to offer a desirable product to more than just the members of this forum.

You say 'dilution', I say 'choice'. You say 'marketing', I say 'so what... be clever, look at the product, not the presentation'...

I love BMW, I have done since I first saw an E24, I don't give a shit about the badge, I don't give a shit about LED head lamps, or whether or not the LCI will change the tail-lamps, I don't care much for most of the things people on here complain about either, I don't care if BMW are making cars I don't need or don't like... I will care when they start making bad cars.. but for now...

...

..
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      03-22-2013, 03:55 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matski View Post
Audi never had an A4 coupe in the first place, I'm pretty sure they introduced the A5 in response to the 3 series coupe... although it's pointless debating who built what first, and even more about who used which naming strategy first, that's not an important race to be leading... what matters at the end of the day is the quality of the product... in that respect, there is not much between the Germans (BMW, Audi, Mercedes)... it's simply personal preference for the most part. The M135 is a great car... that's all that matters.. not which marketing department opened up a different chapter in their "Lets learn our ABC's" the fastest.
that's not what i meant
my point is BMW is trying to follow Audis lead in that the A5 is priced higher than the A4
i am willing to bet the price difference between the F32 and F30 will be higher than E92 vs E90
the fact is that BMW used to be tailred to people such as yourself, where pure driving please was of primary concern. Now its trying to outsell Audi and. More of bragging rights for the repsective CEOs
which also explains why M engineers used to say no to turbocharging etc
now they will stick an M badge on anything as long as it gains them a few extra car sales.
Basically BMW used to be like Apple now
they make great products, and the sales come
now BMW is looking at the end result of more sales, and trying to make cars that fit that, not great cars.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Matski View Post
Project-i has been a massive gamble for BMW, and logically it should pay off, its the right thing to do, done the right way... whether or not the market will bite... I'm not so sure. Look at the other manufacturers, they put Electric drive trains in existing bodies -- COMPROMISE. They design an electric car the same way as they design a normal car, NO VISION... the i3 and i8 represent new thinking from the ground-up.. cars like the R8 etrone, and the SLS e-cell... they are just lip-service to the idea of electric power, compromised because they are trying to be something they are not - compromisation at this level will not wash..... but like I say, that doesn't mean to say the i3, i8 will sell

As for the "Ultimate Driving Machine", that slogan ALWAYS had holes in it... it's just people being nostalgic - and forgetting BMW have had bread and butter products that have been less than sporting for a long time.

I wouldn't worry about BMW if I were you. They appear to be the most free-thinking of the bunch... their strength has grown through their independence. This has led to them having to take certain paths, make certain decisions, and do things in a certain way... Check out the Audi Financial report 2012 - look at the Hundreds and hundreds of Millions of Euro's going back and forth between VW and it's other subsidiaries... The same with Daimler-Chrysler and Mercedes...

Do I think that BMW's line-up is perfect? No, there's lots I don't like, I would like a supercar, I would like more Z's, is their styling perfect? great? good? or even acceptable? sometimes no... but then I didn't fall for BMW because they made the best looking cars in the world.

BMW still make the great cars they always did... the M3, the M5, the M6, these still sit in the marketplace as those models always have done, we now have great cars like the M135i. The economical cars utilise BMW's great engineering skills, just targeted in a different way, and this era isn't unprecidented, now we have the 320 Efficient Dynamics, 30 years ago we had the 325eta... yes we have turbo-charging, but we also have governmental regulations to meet, and don't forget BMW used Turbo's to create one of the all-time classic BMW's the 2002 Turbo. Yes, we have GT models and Gran Coupe models that blur conventional lines... but there was a time when the lines had to be blurred for us to end up with the E30 Tourer, imagine now if BMW had not innovated and there'd never been tourers? -- there was a time when they had to make bubble cars and rear engined, motorcycle powered compacts in order to just survive... there was a time before BMW made SAV's, there was a time before 3/5/7...

Look past the nostalgia induced dogmas. If an Audi is the product you want to buy, then fine buy one, but if you buy an Audi because they had a naming strategy first, then you are a fool. BMW is a business, and they apply their principles to offer a desirable product to more than just the members of this forum.

You say 'dilution', I say 'choice'. You say 'marketing', I say 'so what... be clever, look at the product, not the presentation'...

I love BMW, I have done since I first saw an E24, I don't give a shit about the badge, I don't give a shit about LED head lamps, or whether or not the LCI will change the tail-lamps, I don't care much for most of the things people on here complain about either, I don't care if BMW are making cars I don't need or don't like... I will care when they start making bad cars.. but for now...

...

..
problem is right now there are quite a few cars that don't fit into the ultimate driving machine thing anymore.
and my fear is this will continue, just to keep selling more cars
keep in mind the whole "selling more" strategy doesn't always work
In the UK for example, people used to buy BMWs to be exlcusive
right now, it's the biggest selling model (3 series) and if you want exclusivity you'd be getting a different car
if the premium brand becomes common, it is no longer premium


when your marketing department starts to give direction to your engineering department, you're in trouble
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      03-22-2013, 04:14 PM   #47
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At least doing better then the RS q3 Audi are putting out
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      03-22-2013, 04:45 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmarei View Post
that's not what i meant..
...which also explains why M engineers used to say no to turbocharging etc
now they will stick an M badge on anything as long as it gains them a few extra car sales.
M-engineers possibly wouldn't be in business now if they did just what they wanted, they have to offer cars like the X6M, which go down great in Russia, and cars with Turbo's that help avoid hundreds of millions in CAFE fines.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kmarei View Post
problem is right now there are quite a few cars that don't fit into the ultimate driving machine thing anymore.
and my fear is this will continue, just to keep selling more cars
keep in mind the whole "selling more" strategy doesn't always work
In the UK for example, people used to buy BMWs to be exlcusive
right now, it's the biggest selling model (3 series) and if you want exclusivity you'd be getting a different car
if the premium brand becomes common, it is no longer premium


when your marketing department starts to give direction to your engineering department, you're in trouble
There's a balance, you are right. At the moment, it needs to be a period of growth. This growth will help to sustain BMW's future.. thats crucial. If they just did what the enthusiasts want, they would shrink and die. Even Porsche now has to be supported by products that don't fit it's core needs. And, for every diversification that BMW makes, it competitors are making one also, so.. really, who's worse off... those that adapt, or those that don't?

.. also stats on 3 series being UK's best selling are well out of date. It was true once, but not at the moment. It's interesting how BMW's 'premiumness' is so in question in the US... yet they are cheaper to own than anywhere else in the world. We have poverty spec 316's etc.. on the market, that cost above average to own, americans almost shun the *28 models.. I think our perceptions are both skewed.
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Last edited by Matski; 03-22-2013 at 04:53 PM.
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      03-22-2013, 06:13 PM   #49
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So 5GT has a steady base of customers.
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      03-22-2013, 07:04 PM   #50
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Oh man, this data is just screaming for stacked area graphs.
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Last edited by bradleyland; 03-23-2013 at 08:59 AM. Reason: Fixed the model graph legend
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      03-22-2013, 09:34 PM   #51
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ha i knew i was no the only one to think the x6 was hideous.
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      03-23-2013, 01:12 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matski View Post
Audi never had an A4 coupe in the first place, I'm pretty sure they introduced the A5 in response to the 3 series coupe... although it's pointless debating who built what first, and even more about who used which naming strategy first, that's not an important race to be leading... what matters at the end of the day is the quality of the product... in that respect, there is not much between the Germans (BMW, Audi, Mercedes)... it's simply personal preference for the most part. The M135 is a great car... that's all that matters.. not which marketing department opened up a different chapter in their "Lets learn our ABC's" the fastest.



Project-i has been a massive gamble for BMW, and logically it should pay off, its the right thing to do, done the right way... whether or not the market will bite... I'm not so sure. Look at the other manufacturers, they put Electric drive trains in existing bodies -- COMPROMISE. They design an electric car the same way as they design a normal car, NO VISION... the i3 and i8 represent new thinking from the ground-up.. cars like the R8 etrone, and the SLS e-cell... they are just lip-service to the idea of electric power, compromised because they are trying to be something they are not - compromisation at this level will not wash..... but like I say, that doesn't mean to say the i3, i8 will sell

As for the "Ultimate Driving Machine", that slogan ALWAYS had holes in it... it's just people being nostalgic - and forgetting BMW have had bread and butter products that have been less than sporting for a long time.

I wouldn't worry about BMW if I were you. They appear to be the most free-thinking of the bunch... their strength has grown through their independence. This has led to them having to take certain paths, make certain decisions, and do things in a certain way... Check out the Audi Financial report 2012 - look at the Hundreds and hundreds of Millions of Euro's going back and forth between VW and it's other subsidiaries... The same with Daimler-Chrysler and Mercedes...

Do I think that BMW's line-up is perfect? No, there's lots I don't like, I would like a supercar, I would like more Z's, is their styling perfect? great? good? or even acceptable? sometimes no... but then I didn't fall for BMW because they made the best looking cars in the world.

BMW still make the great cars they always did... the M3, the M5, the M6, these still sit in the marketplace as those models always have done, we now have great cars like the M135i. The economical cars utilise BMW's great engineering skills, just targeted in a different way, and this era isn't unprecidented, now we have the 320 Efficient Dynamics, 30 years ago we had the 325eta... yes we have turbo-charging, but we also have governmental regulations to meet, and don't forget BMW used Turbo's to create one of the all-time classic BMW's the 2002 Turbo. Yes, we have GT models and Gran Coupe models that blur conventional lines... but there was a time when the lines had to be blurred for us to end up with the E30 Tourer, imagine now if BMW had not innovated and there'd never been tourers? -- there was a time when they had to make bubble cars and rear engined, motorcycle powered compacts in order to just survive... there was a time before BMW made SAV's, there was a time before 3/5/7...

Look past the nostalgia induced dogmas. If an Audi is the product you want to buy, then fine buy one, but if you buy an Audi because they had a naming strategy first, then you are a fool. BMW is a business, and they apply their principles to offer a desirable product to more than just the members of this forum.

You say 'dilution', I say 'choice'. You say 'marketing', I say 'so what... be clever, look at the product, not the presentation'...

I love BMW, I have done since I first saw an E24, I don't give a shit about the badge, I don't give a shit about LED head lamps, or whether or not the LCI will change the tail-lamps, I don't care much for most of the things people on here complain about either, I don't care if BMW are making cars I don't need or don't like... I will care when they start making bad cars.. but for now...
Best post on this thread and many others! 100% Agreed! Well said.
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      03-23-2013, 11:47 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmarei View Post
my main issue is as long as you are following someone else
you will never be a leader, or a winner

i'm genuinely worried about BMW
everything they do now is following in Audi's foot steps
the whole m135i etc is basically what audi does with their S line
the 3/4 series is basically what audi did with the A4/A5

the only thing of note that they are doing is focusing on carbon fiber, but that's more a long term thing.
i'm not convinced the i3/i8 will amount to much
and i'm sure those cost a lot to develop
meanwhile i see less and less focus on the "ultimate driving machine" thing
with the electric power steering, turbocharging etc
you can't be all things to all people
if you cater to every single tiny little niche of a market
you are over extending yourself, and something will break
Well said KM.. I feel the same way. I can see why shareholders would want BMW to bcome the 'Toyota' of luxary but spreading yourself too thin is just that.
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      03-24-2013, 07:06 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bradleyland
Oh man, this data is just screaming for stacked area graphs.
Cool graphs. Illustrates the attraction of the X range...With Europe struggling focus shifts east and the US where such cars appeal more than the relative European niches of smaller sports cars.
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      04-01-2013, 02:05 PM   #55
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I wish we could get this data further broken down by model i.e. 335i coupe 328 coupe 335xi coupe etc etc Anyone know if that exists publicly anywhere?
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