BMW M3 Forum (E90 E92)

BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   M3Post - BMW M3 Forum > BIMMERPOST Universal Forums > General Automotive (non-BMW) Talk + Photos/Videos
 
Race Precision Motorsport
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      09-03-2007, 03:15 PM   #1
lkevinl
Lieutenant
 
Drives: '07 335i 4dr Sport+Premium+Nav
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: So. Cal.

Posts: 521
iTrader: (0)

300HP sedan/coupe here to stay??

So, I had a 1990 300zx twin turbo. This was great car, 300HP, 4 wheel steering at speed, adjustable suspension, etc. Loved it! It was the first car I owned that really pinned me to the back of my seat when accelerating.

After that car came out, it was followed by the 330HP Toyota Supra, and 330HP Mitsubishi 3000GT...

There were all of those 300+HP hatchbacks, but one by one, they were all discontinued. Was this because the hatchback market dried up or because 300HP was to pricey, lacked the gas mileage, or some other reason? The horse power and performance of the Z, Supra and others kepting creeping up with each new revision but seemed like it peeked and then they all went a way because their markets dried up.

When the new Z was re-introduced with the 350z, I believe it had only 260HP so Nissan was not attempting to beat the HP/Torque of its predecessor. It has since crept back up.

I'm wondering if the same thing will happen with the sports sedan/coupe market, not the class of car itself, but the horse power. There are now several 300+HP sport sedans and coupes. Are they here to stay?

It seems like the hatchback market just died up and with it, all of those 300HP engines. That can't happen to the sedan/coupe market but there has to be a horse power limit for this class (excluding the M, AMG, etc).

Thoughts?
lkevinl is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      09-03-2007, 03:53 PM   #2
sdiver68
Expert Road Racer
 
Drives: 07 335i e90, 09 335i e93
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 1,330
iTrader: (3)

The hatchback market dried up, the 90's became the decade of the dino-whore SUV.

We are in a full-fledged HP was now. It may peak and plateau, but I don't think it will go backwards unless fuel prices rise significantly. Rumors of the S6 at 580HP and CTS-V at 600HP show we aren't at the peak yet.
sdiver68 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      09-03-2007, 06:29 PM   #3
ynotony
Private First Class
 
Drives: 330i
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Los Angeles

Posts: 145
iTrader: (0)

I think the hatchback market has gone up significantly recently. There are so many of them now.

And there is something wrong with your logic if you think 300hp and hatchbacks were exclusively linked until recently. We stopped seeing such high output 2 seaters and they happened to be hatchbacks. The hatchback going away for a bit was coincidental. engineers could have put those 300hp engines in any car they wanted.
ynotony is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      09-03-2007, 06:54 PM   #4
lkevinl
Lieutenant
 
Drives: '07 335i 4dr Sport+Premium+Nav
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: So. Cal.

Posts: 521
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by sdiver68 View Post
The hatchback market dried up, the 90's became the decade of the dino-whore SUV.

We are in a full-fledged HP was now. It may peak and plateau, but I don't think it will go backwards unless fuel prices rise significantly. Rumors of the S6 at 580HP and CTS-V at 600HP show we aren't at the peak yet.
There certainly is a horse power war (whores power war ) going on, but the cars you're talking about are racing models like the M, well, maybe not the CTS-V exactly but not a direct comparison.

We're at 300+HP now for the standard 3 series sedans and coupes. You think those models are going to creep into the 400+HP range as well??? I find that hard to believe!

I think we're going to hit a wall, the trade-off between fuel economy for the class against horse power or just plain pricing issues. The 3 series is supposed to bring performance and luxury at a more affordable price and it currently pretty much does that even if it is at the high end of its class.

On the other hand, it is hard to see where this will end.
lkevinl is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      09-03-2007, 07:47 PM   #5
lkevinl
Lieutenant
 
Drives: '07 335i 4dr Sport+Premium+Nav
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: So. Cal.

Posts: 521
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ynotony View Post
I think the hatchback market has gone up significantly recently. There are so many of them now.

And there is something wrong with your logic if you think 300hp and hatchbacks were exclusively linked until recently. We stopped seeing such high output 2 seaters and they happened to be hatchbacks. The hatchback going away for a bit was coincidental. engineers could have put those 300hp engines in any car they wanted.
Hatchbacks are making a come back. Actually, they never fully went away really... didn't the Eclipse come out during the life of the 3000GT? By the way, that things (Eclipse) is up to 260HP now isn't it?!?

I wasn't linking hatchbacks to 300HP engines... it's just during that time frame, early to mid-90's, there were several 300HP hatchbacks competing for market share and then they all died out.
lkevinl is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      09-03-2007, 07:56 PM   #6
lkevinl
Lieutenant
 
Drives: '07 335i 4dr Sport+Premium+Nav
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: So. Cal.

Posts: 521
iTrader: (0)

Speaking of technology, it would be really interesting to see a comparison of the 300HP twin-turbo 300ZX to that of the 300HP twin-turbo 335i.

I remember a few distinct things about the Nissan engine... Unlike the 335i, the turbo whine was pretty apparent. It was actually kind of reassuring to hear when they kicked in!

Also, the turbo lag was more noticable. Again, at the time I didn't think of it as a draw back. It gave the feeling of an arcade game, turning the thrusters on!

Also, that car had a suspension switch for comfort and sport. I was amazed how quick it changed and how noticeable the ride difference was, unlike other cars of the time with a similar feature.

All in all, it was a pretty nice ride, fun to drive! I definitely wouldn't trade it for my 335 though...
lkevinl is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      09-03-2007, 08:10 PM   #7
bavarian19
General
 
bavarian19's Avatar
 
Drives: Car
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: VA

Posts: 18,811
iTrader: (23)

Keep in mind 300 hp today is probably where 225 hp (or so) was in 1990.


For sport luxury cars, 300hp is the new benchmark. Keep in mind there will always be cars that have much more. I hate to say it, but I still dont think 300hp is completely memorizing. Its nice, but not the difference you feel of a 400+hp car
bavarian19 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      09-03-2007, 08:43 PM   #8
Bimmerista
Major General
 
Bimmerista's Avatar
 
Drives: superstock
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada

Posts: 5,698
iTrader: (0)

Agee with what posted above. One more thing-all the cars you mentioned, Mitsu GT, Supra, the original Z, the RX, got to be too pricey for the target market. None were playing in the luxury field and they were all discontinued when the yen started to appreciate too much. At that time the Japanese manufacturers had little NA manufacturing capacity and the currency exchange rate priced their cars out of the market.
__________________
__________________________
2012 335i, saphire black, coral red leather interior, sport line, sport suspension, 6mt, premium package
2011 Lincoln MKX, black on black, premium package - that's right! Techno-Groovy baby
Bimmerista is offline   Canada
0
Reply With Quote
      09-03-2007, 11:24 PM   #9
lkevinl
Lieutenant
 
Drives: '07 335i 4dr Sport+Premium+Nav
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: So. Cal.

Posts: 521
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bavarian19 View Post
Keep in mind 300 hp today is probably where 225 hp (or so) was in 1990.


For sport luxury cars, 300hp is the new benchmark. Keep in mind there will always be cars that have much more. I hate to say it, but I still dont think 300hp is completely memorizing. Its nice, but not the difference you feel of a 400+hp car
I don't know about memorizing, but if my memory serves me well, my first test drive in my 335i was indeed Mesmerizing!
lkevinl is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      09-03-2007, 11:27 PM   #10
lkevinl
Lieutenant
 
Drives: '07 335i 4dr Sport+Premium+Nav
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: So. Cal.

Posts: 521
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bimmerista View Post
Agee with what posted above. One more thing-all the cars you mentioned, Mitsu GT, Supra, the original Z, the RX, got to be too pricey for the target market. None were playing in the luxury field and they were all discontinued when the yen started to appreciate too much. At that time the Japanese manufacturers had little NA manufacturing capacity and the currency exchange rate priced their cars out of the market.
I agree about the price point. I remember in 1990 or there about checking out a twin turbo Z on the lot and, if my memory still serves me correctly, I believe it was about $41K. That is 17 years ago. $41K, if adjusted for inflation would be very pricey today! Doesn't the current 350Z go for much less than that now?
lkevinl is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      09-03-2007, 11:30 PM   #11
lkevinl
Lieutenant
 
Drives: '07 335i 4dr Sport+Premium+Nav
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: So. Cal.

Posts: 521
iTrader: (0)

By the way... had a 1982 Toyota Supra.... 175HP 2.8 liter straight 6. That thing was my dream car in high school. It had a great shifter and felt like a rocket back then. My how expectations change!
lkevinl is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      09-04-2007, 08:24 AM   #12
sdiver68
Expert Road Racer
 
Drives: 07 335i e90, 09 335i e93
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 1,330
iTrader: (3)

1 more thing I forgot to add.

Electronic traction and stability controls removes one of the key engineering problems, that of putting too much power into a car. For the non-specialty car market (M, AMG, Porsche, etc...) 300+ can be too much power for most drivers, absent the electronic aids.

And I'll respond to the non-specialty argument above. It's my experience that the technology found in those cars makes its way to the "normal" cars within a model refresh or 2 at the most.

Last edited by sdiver68; 09-04-2007 at 08:40 AM.
sdiver68 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      09-04-2007, 11:38 AM   #13
lkevinl
Lieutenant
 
Drives: '07 335i 4dr Sport+Premium+Nav
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: So. Cal.

Posts: 521
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by sdiver68 View Post
1 more thing I forgot to add.

Electronic traction and stability controls removes one of the key engineering problems, that of putting too much power into a car. For the non-specialty car market (M, AMG, Porsche, etc...) 300+ can be too much power for most drivers, absent the electronic aids.

And I'll respond to the non-specialty argument above. It's my experience that the technology found in those cars makes its way to the "normal" cars within a model refresh or 2 at the most.
The muscle cars never had traction control though. The technology does allow for less skilled drivers to maintain control of these lighter cars with increasing horsepower for sure.

Are you suggesting the newer technology is opening the doors that unleashed the current horse power war?
lkevinl is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      09-04-2007, 12:04 PM   #14
sdiver68
Expert Road Racer
 
Drives: 07 335i e90, 09 335i e93
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 1,330
iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by lkevinl View Post
The muscle cars never had traction control though. The technology does allow for less skilled drivers to maintain control of these lighter cars with increasing horsepower for sure.

Are you suggesting the newer technology is opening the doors that unleashed the current horse power war?
True, but muscle cars also did not exist in today's product liability legal climate, either.

Yes, technology definitely makes this all possible. Even without the DSC argument, there is the fuel economy, safety and power arguments. My 335i Sedan runs the QM is the mid-to-lower 13's and still returns 21 mpg mixed, 27 on the highway running 80ish. With who knows how many airbags and side impact protection devices!
sdiver68 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      09-04-2007, 01:08 PM   #15
voltron1011
Colonel
 
voltron1011's Avatar
 
Drives: 2011 135i, FJR-1300
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Wiesbaden

Posts: 2,912
iTrader: (2)

I had a '91 300zx TT as well!! Loved the car, but it really wasn't THAT fast 0-60 (6.1 or something) because it had some insanely tall gears (1st gear would go to about 48mph). I would probably still have the car had I not gotten run off the road by a drunk driver in a Firebird
voltron1011 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      09-04-2007, 01:42 PM   #16
Plan B
Private First Class
 
Plan B's Avatar
 
Drives: 2008 997S / 2007 CaymanS
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Neither here nor there

Posts: 166
iTrader: (0)

As everyone here have posted, we are indeed in the middle of a horsepower war.

For the future of true enthusiast sporting makes/models however, my guess is that simple horsepower billings as the means to one-up a competitor will end soon. Eventually, manufacturers will focus in on the utilization of more exotic materials and manufacturing techniques to minimize weight.

I think one can begin to see the laws to diminishing returns on bigger/more potent engines for future M5/M6 models...more power, more nanny electronics, bigger brakes, bigger wheels…vicious cycle continues…

Ferrari and Porsche will lead the way…I look forward to the evolution of this new phase in sports car/sedans.
__________________

2008 Porsche 911 S 6MT [GT Silver/Cocoa extended leather/sport chrono/loaded]
2007 Porsche Cayman S 6MT [Black/Black extended leather/typical options] Daily Driver
Plan B is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      09-04-2007, 01:50 PM   #17
T Bone
Brigadier General
 
T Bone's Avatar
 
Drives: 2008 335xi Coupe
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: The land where we kill baby seals

Posts: 4,021
iTrader: (0)

I hope to get 650 hp with my next car....650 out of the box....
__________________
"Aerodynamics are for people who cannot build engines"......Enzo Ferrari
T Bone is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      09-04-2007, 05:45 PM   #18
voltron1011
Colonel
 
voltron1011's Avatar
 
Drives: 2011 135i, FJR-1300
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Wiesbaden

Posts: 2,912
iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by T Bone View Post
I hope to get 650 hp with my next car....650 out of the box....
Yep, the only problem is that it'll probably weigh about 4400 lbs.
voltron1011 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      09-05-2007, 10:36 AM   #19
T Bone
Brigadier General
 
T Bone's Avatar
 
Drives: 2008 335xi Coupe
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: The land where we kill baby seals

Posts: 4,021
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by voltron1011 View Post
Yep, the only problem is that it'll probably weigh about 4400 lbs.

I have faith in BMW's philosophy..... Gerhard Richter, chief M dude, is saying the HP will plateau since fuel economy and CO2 emissions are getting out of control and the only way to improve performance is weight.

I look forward to BMW using carbon and composites in the F10 M5 / F12 M6 and the Z10....
__________________
"Aerodynamics are for people who cannot build engines"......Enzo Ferrari
T Bone is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      09-05-2007, 11:39 AM   #20
Bimmerista
Major General
 
Bimmerista's Avatar
 
Drives: superstock
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada

Posts: 5,698
iTrader: (0)

+1.

I think that the Hp war glory days are behind us. Right now manufacturers are starting to focus more and more on emissions and consumption (again....).

Engines such as the monster 6.2 litre V8 that AMG is using across the board are dinosaurs. BMW is now toying with double turbo 4.0 litre V8s as top motor (the V10 is also dead-but-doesn't-really-know-it-yet).

So for high performance cars the new moto is doing more with less across the board (less displacement, less weight)
__________________
__________________________
2012 335i, saphire black, coral red leather interior, sport line, sport suspension, 6mt, premium package
2011 Lincoln MKX, black on black, premium package - that's right! Techno-Groovy baby
Bimmerista is offline   Canada
0
Reply With Quote
      09-06-2007, 12:49 AM   #21
lkevinl
Lieutenant
 
Drives: '07 335i 4dr Sport+Premium+Nav
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: So. Cal.

Posts: 521
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by voltron1011 View Post
I had a '91 300zx TT as well!! Loved the car, but it really wasn't THAT fast 0-60 (6.1 or something) because it had some insanely tall gears (1st gear would go to about 48mph). I would probably still have the car had I not gotten run off the road by a drunk driver in a Firebird
You're mistaken, man! I believe that thing could do 0-60 in about 5.1.
My car had a chip before I knew what chips were... I bought it used from someone who modded it with performance chip and exhaust.

Just searched the net and I see times from 5.2 to 6.5 for the 0-60, and only 24mpg.
lkevinl is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      09-06-2007, 01:00 AM   #22
lkevinl
Lieutenant
 
Drives: '07 335i 4dr Sport+Premium+Nav
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: So. Cal.

Posts: 521
iTrader: (0)

I think there is definitely an HP limit for the class of car we're talking about. As we get older, and wiser, and hopefully wealthier, we'll move up to the next class for the extra horsepower, etc.
I agree, it will be all about technology, styling, and comfort all balanced against economy for the class.

So, what does that mean for the 2012 3 series (that's the next model rennovation, isn't it?). More than 300hp?

I actually was wondering why BMW wouldn't have gone with a 300HP 3.0 liter naturally aspirated engine instead of the twin turbo. They already produced a 330HP 3.2 liter engine for the last model M3. It seems like they could have squeezed out 300HP from a 3.0 liter by using similar engine technolgy and it seems there'd be other advantages to that versus a twin turbo, specifically, wear and tear, maintenance, heat, (fuel economy?), etc.
lkevinl is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:53 PM.




m3post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST