BMW M3 Forum (E90 E92)

BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   M3Post - BMW M3 Forum > BIMMERPOST Universal Forums > Off-Topic Discussions Board > Politics/Religion
 
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      04-30-2014, 12:44 PM   #1
whats77inaname
Banned
 
Drives: when at all possible
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Tx

Posts: 1,740
iTrader: (15)

Tolling of Interstate highways might soon become legal

Interesting, to say the least.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/...1f4_story.html
whats77inaname is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      04-30-2014, 01:36 PM   #2
fecurtis
Captain
 
Drives: 2014 BMW 335i M-Sport
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Arlington, VA

Posts: 856
iTrader: (0)

Seems logical, let the states decide whether or not to implement tolls and for how much on roads running through their jurisdiction.

In theory it seems to make sense, the people paying for a decent chunk of the roads are technically the ones who are actually using them.
__________________
2014 BMW 335i M-Sport | Estoril Blue II | 8AT | MPPK | MPE
fecurtis is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      04-30-2014, 02:28 PM   #3
8k3
Lieutenant
 
Drives: Car
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Austin, Tx

Posts: 475
iTrader: (0)

Except when the state uses it as an excuse to generate revenue. Some tolls in IL are over a buck and they hit you multiple times if I recall correctly
8k3 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      04-30-2014, 02:38 PM   #4
Kyle B
This one goes to 11.
 
Kyle B's Avatar
 
Drives: E30, E60
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Tampa Bay, FL

Posts: 521
iTrader: (0)

" Money from new tolling would have to be used for repair and reconstruction of roadway systems, and the U.S. secretary of transportation would have to approve any new tolling plans for interstates."

Because the Federal government is so good at handling its money.

BTW, we already pay federal fuel taxes that are supposed to pay for maintaining the system. Where'd all that money go?
Kyle B is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      04-30-2014, 02:54 PM   #5
JRV
Lieutenant
 
Drives: 2011.75 AWE90M3
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Bedford, NY

Posts: 513
iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle B
" Money from new tolling would have to be used for repair and reconstruction of roadway systems, and the U.S. secretary of transportation would have to approve any new tolling plans for interstates."

Because the Federal government is so good at handling its money.

BTW, we already pay federal fuel taxes that are supposed to pay for maintaining the system. Where'd all that money go?
+1 I read the US spends around 2% of our federal taxes on infrastructure. A lot more goes to military (27%), healthcare (22%) and unemployment (9.8%). The rest is education, food energy, etc..the least I believe goes to scientific research. Education is around 2%.
__________________
'08 Silver/Black C300 (Wife)
'04 Jeep Grand Cherokee Limited V8 (My beater)
Loaded AW Fox Red/Black/Black Carbon Leather ZCP E90 M3 (Halloween Delivery)
JRV is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      04-30-2014, 03:06 PM   #6
XM_Rocks
Lieutenant
 
Drives: E90 335i
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Austin, TX

Posts: 401
iTrader: (0)

Do it how they did in the past.

Toll Company builds road for X.

Once Tolls = X + % of profit is collected in tolls the road is handed back to the state.
XM_Rocks is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      04-30-2014, 03:20 PM   #7
fecurtis
Captain
 
Drives: 2014 BMW 335i M-Sport
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Arlington, VA

Posts: 856
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by XM_Rocks View Post
Do it how they did in the past.

Toll Company builds road for X.

Once Tolls = X + % of profit is collected in tolls the road is handed back to the state.
That won't really work since interstates and US highways are still maintained largely by the Federal government.

I also don't think $1 tolls are a big deal. The HOT lanes around here can be around $6-$12 for about an 8 mile trip during rush hour. Normal tolls around the area range from around $1.25-$5.00.

I guess HOT lanes aren't very common, they stand for High Occupancy Toll lanes. If you don't have 3 or more people in your car, you're charged based upon how far you take the HOT lanes. The amount you're charged is linked to how many cars are using the HOT lanes. The more people in them, the more expensive it gets. The idea is to always keep traffic in the HOT lanes moving, even though the interstate itself maybe congested.
__________________
2014 BMW 335i M-Sport | Estoril Blue II | 8AT | MPPK | MPE
fecurtis is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      04-30-2014, 03:24 PM   #8
XM_Rocks
Lieutenant
 
Drives: E90 335i
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Austin, TX

Posts: 401
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by fecurtis View Post
That won't really work since interstates and US highways are still maintained largely by the Federal government.
Ok... replace state with federal.
XM_Rocks is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      04-30-2014, 03:36 PM   #9
bubu
Bunny Slayer
 
Drives: E92 M3 - DCT (2013)
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Orange County - Southern California

Posts: 484
iTrader: (0)

Orange County, CA taxpayers got scammed with Toll Roads already... private money (backed by gov't loan guarantees) was used to build a toll road network. Tolls roads are always a bad deal in the end for tax payers, even privately funded ones based on what I've seen to date.

End result in orange county is that the date for the "no more tolls" handoff keeps getting pushed further and further out (2056 last I heard) and there is now a "quasi" government bureaucracy known as the "toll road authority" skimming hundreds of millions if not billions of the top of the revenues which are supposed be to be used to satisfy the loans which the tax payer guaranteed. I doubt these roads will EVER be free within my lifetime, possibly even my Children's lifetimes. Look @ the NJ turnpike
bubu is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      04-30-2014, 04:05 PM   #10
Kyle B
This one goes to 11.
 
Kyle B's Avatar
 
Drives: E30, E60
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Tampa Bay, FL

Posts: 521
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by fecurtis View Post

I also don't think $1 tolls are a big deal.
Please don't take offense to this, because I don't mean to offend; this is a very flawed way of thinking in my opinion. Simply because it isn't a 'big deal' to you doesn't mean it isn't a big deal to someone else. $5 a week to you (and me, thankfully) is nothing, but to someone else it literally might determine whether or not the family gets a gallon of milk this week. Seriously, there are a LOT of families out there that deal with this very predicament every day.

I lived in NoVA for about 20 years. It is a very, VERY affluent area and I think there is a skewed sense of economics and how most people live in that entire region.

Raising tolls on federal highways is akin to you getting a second or third job to support your household. On a microeconomic level, when things get tight in a household the first typical reaction is to reduce expenditures, and adhere to a tight budget. This seems to be a completely alien concept to the Feds; when they spend too much or completely lose track of money, they react by raising taxes. They've been doing this for how many decades now? It's working so well....

Raising taxes to support roads does absolutely nothing to address the two root economic issues that continue to plague this country which are excessive spending, and devaluation of the dollar.
Kyle B is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      04-30-2014, 04:19 PM   #11
whats77inaname
Banned
 
Drives: when at all possible
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Tx

Posts: 1,740
iTrader: (15)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle B View Post
" Money from new tolling would have to be used for repair and reconstruction of roadway systems, and the U.S. secretary of transportation would have to approve any new tolling plans for interstates."

Because the Federal government is so good at handling its money.

BTW, we already pay federal fuel taxes that are supposed to pay for maintaining the system. Where'd all that money go?
Excellent question!

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/...1f4_story.html

If you believe the govt, the $ has almost dried up b/c cars are more fuel efficient.

Quote:
The question of how to pay to repair roadways and transit systems built in the heady era of post-World War II expansion is demanding center stage this spring, with projections that traditional funding can no longer meet the need.

That source, the Highway Trust Fund, relies on the 18.4-cent federal gas tax, which has eroded steadily as vehicles have become more energy efficient.

“The proposal comes at the crucial moment for transportation in the last several years,” Foxx said. “As soon as August, the Highway Trust Fund could run dry. States are already canceling or delaying projects because of the uncertainty.”
whats77inaname is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      04-30-2014, 04:47 PM   #12
XM_Rocks
Lieutenant
 
Drives: E90 335i
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Austin, TX

Posts: 401
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by fecurtis View Post
I also don't think $1 tolls are a big deal.
Yeah... Warren Buffet probably doesn't think the balance on my mortgage is a big deal either.

We are not a poor country.

We have the means however the tax code is written by those who exploit it. It is also so complex that some companies hire hundreds of tax attorneys to figure out how to offshore profits.

The tax code should be a few pages and I am all for getting rid of all deductions.
XM_Rocks is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      05-01-2014, 07:47 AM   #13
one 35i
Private First Class
 
one 35i's Avatar
 
Drives: CSM/terra
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Maryland

Posts: 170
iTrader: (1)

Tolls

More lost time, inefficiency, congestion, waste of fuel(slowing,stopping,starting) but, hey, its another way to raise more revenue that can be wasted by politicians!
one 35i is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      05-01-2014, 08:47 AM   #14
bbbbmw
Lieutenant
 
Drives: 135i
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Southwest

Posts: 547
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by whats77inaname View Post
Excellent question!

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/...1f4_story.html

If you believe the govt, the $ has almost dried up b/c cars are more fuel efficient.
The article states that the Federal gas tax has not risen since 1993, and cars are so much more fuel efficient, that it's reducing the revenue. But - from what I can find - the total number of miles driven on US roads is up by about 50% since 1993 - which should make for a substantial increase in tax, even though the tax hasn't changed.

Out of the other side of its mouth, the government is paying taxpayer dollars to buyers of electric vehicles, who also don't pay any gas taxes - so they are being essentially paid to drive on the roads. Madness...
__________________
<OO (llll)(llll) OO>
bbbbmw is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      05-01-2014, 09:54 AM   #15
whats77inaname
Banned
 
Drives: when at all possible
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Tx

Posts: 1,740
iTrader: (15)

So the question becomes, which way should we fix this? If the states can toll Interstate highways, one could see poorer states have higher tolls to address other needs. If the govt. increases the tax rate, it is a flat tax across the board. Decisions, decisions.
whats77inaname is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      05-01-2014, 02:39 PM   #16
Kyle B
This one goes to 11.
 
Kyle B's Avatar
 
Drives: E30, E60
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Tampa Bay, FL

Posts: 521
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by whats77inaname View Post

If you believe the govt..
LULZ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post

Out of the other side of its mouth, the government is paying taxpayer dollars to buyers of electric vehicles, who also don't pay any gas taxes - so they are being essentially paid to drive on the roads. Madness...
Aaaaand this is why the Feds should stay out of the private sector. They fail miserably at every single attempt.
Kyle B is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      05-01-2014, 03:45 PM   #17
XM_Rocks
Lieutenant
 
Drives: E90 335i
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Austin, TX

Posts: 401
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by whats77inaname View Post
So the question becomes, which way should we fix this? If the states can toll Interstate highways, one could see poorer states have higher tolls to address other needs. If the govt. increases the tax rate, it is a flat tax across the board. Decisions, decisions.
Its not a flat tax across the board.

People like myself that drive 4k miles a year pay little in gas tax when others that live in the suburbs and drive 40 miles a day on the interstate in their Excursion pay more.

The govt cant manage itself because its not a private sector company.

Gas tax hasn't risen since the 90's.... its a political tool.

Politicians are scared to up the gas tax for some unknown fear of some tax payer backlash.

Then they spoint to decaying/small roads and allow toll companies to step in and line their pockets.

No private sector company would have allowed their revenues to dry up like that.
XM_Rocks is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      05-01-2014, 04:03 PM   #18
fecurtis
Captain
 
Drives: 2014 BMW 335i M-Sport
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Arlington, VA

Posts: 856
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by XM_Rocks View Post
Its not a flat tax across the board.

People like myself that drive 4k miles a year pay little in gas tax when others that live in the suburbs and drive 40 miles a day on the interstate in their Excursion pay more.

The govt cant manage itself because its not a private sector company.

Gas tax hasn't risen since the 90's.... its a political tool.

Politicians are scared to up the gas tax for some unknown fear of some tax payer backlash.

Then they spoint to decaying/small roads and allow toll companies to step in and line their pockets.

No private sector company would have allowed their revenues to dry up like that.
To be fair, if you raised the gas tax, you most likely would see tax payer backlash. Happens all the time in Virginia. People outside of northern VA get upset that their tax dollars go towards many infrastructure projects in NoVA meanwhile we here in NoVA counter that most of the state's tax revenue comes from NoVA since it's densely populated and very affluent.

It's usually difficult for governments to find ways to generate new revenue without pissing people off.
__________________
2014 BMW 335i M-Sport | Estoril Blue II | 8AT | MPPK | MPE
fecurtis is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      05-01-2014, 04:06 PM   #19
fecurtis
Captain
 
Drives: 2014 BMW 335i M-Sport
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Arlington, VA

Posts: 856
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by one 35i View Post
More lost time, inefficiency, congestion, waste of fuel(slowing,stopping,starting) but, hey, its another way to raise more revenue that can be wasted by politicians!
If they build the tolls in such a way that effectively use ezpass or something similar, it won't cause much in congestion.

You typically see older tolls that have been retrofitted with ezpass lanes cause congestion while newer tolls have been set up so that you drive normally without slowing down while those who need to stop and pay a toll have to actually merge off the main highway.
__________________
2014 BMW 335i M-Sport | Estoril Blue II | 8AT | MPPK | MPE
fecurtis is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      05-01-2014, 04:13 PM   #20
fecurtis
Captain
 
Drives: 2014 BMW 335i M-Sport
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Arlington, VA

Posts: 856
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle B View Post
Please don't take offense to this, because I don't mean to offend; this is a very flawed way of thinking in my opinion. Simply because it isn't a 'big deal' to you doesn't mean it isn't a big deal to someone else. $5 a week to you (and me, thankfully) is nothing, but to someone else it literally might determine whether or not the family gets a gallon of milk this week. Seriously, there are a LOT of families out there that deal with this very predicament every day.

I lived in NoVA for about 20 years. It is a very, VERY affluent area and I think there is a skewed sense of economics and how most people live in that entire region.

Raising tolls on federal highways is akin to you getting a second or third job to support your household. On a microeconomic level, when things get tight in a household the first typical reaction is to reduce expenditures, and adhere to a tight budget. This seems to be a completely alien concept to the Feds; when they spend too much or completely lose track of money, they react by raising taxes. They've been doing this for how many decades now? It's working so well....

Raising taxes to support roads does absolutely nothing to address the two root economic issues that continue to plague this country which are excessive spending, and devaluation of the dollar.
None taken since you're right, NoVA is a very affluent area home to some of the wealthiest jurisdictions by average household income.

Your analogy doesn't make sense though, for one the proposed law would take the decision out of the Feds hands and leave the states to decide whether to toll and for how much on interstates that run through their jurisdiction. I'd rather it be up to the state government than the Federal government personally. Every spring the roads around here are in abysmal condition. There are disadvantages of course, funding from the tolls could be used for something OTHER than maintaining the road itself. A good example of this is the metro expansion into the Dulles Airport area and beyond. That is partially funded by tolls along the Dulles Toll Road...where the metro expansion runs along. But even with that, one could argue that those who'd normally take the toll road could take the metro (if and when it ever opens...) instead if they so chose to since it'll take you straight into downtown DC.

Besides, it's probably more accurate to use a business rather than a household since a household is obviously far more simplistic than the money a government takes in vs. how much it spends. A business will try to cut expenses while raising revenues in concert with one another.

Plus I think many are forgetting that just because the initial cost of building a road is paid for, that the road no longer incurs any expenses. The toll revenue still needs to pay to actually maintain the roads and fund any future improvements to the roadway. In theory, if it's the money is used as intended, it's an effective way to fund maintenance and improvements as the ones paying for it are the ones who actually use the road instead of tax payers who live in the same state but would never use the road.
__________________
2014 BMW 335i M-Sport | Estoril Blue II | 8AT | MPPK | MPE
fecurtis is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      05-01-2014, 08:38 PM   #21
XM_Rocks
Lieutenant
 
Drives: E90 335i
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Austin, TX

Posts: 401
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by fecurtis View Post
T

It's usually difficult for governments to find ways to generate new revenue without pissing people off.
It reminds me of parents that refuse to parent because they want to be best friends with their kid.

XM_Rocks is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      05-03-2014, 12:31 PM   #22
128Convertibleguy
Lieutenant
 
Drives: 2010 128 Covertible
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Mountains

Posts: 505
iTrader: (0)

Smile

Everyone knows our roads need more work, both maintenance and more lanes. A great many are shoddy and congested. Everyone knows the reason it isn't being done is that there is not enough money from present gas taxes to do what is needed. That money is not being diverted elsewhere.

So this is totally necessary. Citizens should get the numbers, and assure themselves that the tolls don't go to other uses. Personally, I'm confident they won't. Too much risk for the politicians involved, too many investigative journalists who'd love a juicy story.

Last edited by 128Convertibleguy; 05-03-2014 at 12:36 PM.
128Convertibleguy is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:42 AM.




m3post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST