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      01-23-2014, 09:29 PM   #1
Kitsune sama
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Protests in Ukraine Summarized

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      01-25-2014, 04:33 PM   #2
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Some video to show what Ukrainian goverment and police do with citizens.


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      01-25-2014, 04:47 PM   #3
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Gents,

I've spent a lot of time in Kyiv and Ukraine in general. I've been in the center and other places which I now see on the web as the epicenter of the uprisings. It saddens me to see such a wonderful country and people at each others throats. My boots have walked down those same streets which are now covered with snow, blood and burning tires.

The real issue is Eastern Ukraine has a very large pro-Russian or Russian actual population. The West is Ukrainian and wants to be part of the West. They cannot have a "Velvet Revolution" like the Czech and Slovak republics did. Both sides want Kyiv at ANY cost! The Crimea as well.

Corruption is rampant, more than once I've had to bribe a policemen to leave me alone. This mess is only making their economy worse as foreign capital will flee.

I hope by offering the opposition party the PM slot they will deescalate this.
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      01-26-2014, 05:05 AM   #4
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Thanks, you are right.

http://zyalt.livejournal.com/984735.html
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      01-27-2014, 05:16 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by templarklimek View Post
Gents,

I've spent a lot of time in Kyiv and Ukraine in general. I've been in the center and other places which I now see on the web as the epicenter of the uprisings. It saddens me to see such a wonderful country and people at each others throats. My boots have walked down those same streets which are now covered with snow, blood and burning tires.

The real issue is Eastern Ukraine has a very large pro-Russian or Russian actual population. The West is Ukrainian and wants to be part of the West. They cannot have a "Velvet Revolution" like the Czech and Slovak republics did. Both sides want Kyiv at ANY cost! The Crimea as well.

Corruption is rampant, more than once I've had to bribe a policemen to leave me alone. This mess is only making their economy worse as foreign capital will flee.

I hope by offering the opposition party the PM slot they will deescalate this.
Ukraine protesters leave justice ministry

According to this article, it seems that even though the PM slot was offered, Arseniy Yatsenyuk said that the protests would still continue.
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      03-03-2014, 02:39 PM   #6
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Russia invading makes no sense what so ever! It does not need the Ukraine, and the reason given was that there are "russian speakers" in the Ukraine, there are a shit load of Russians all over the globe... if that is a reason enough to invade then the world is going to war.

There are clearly other reasons at play which no one has blatantly reported on or voiced yet.
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      03-04-2014, 12:05 PM   #7
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When and if the Ukraine joins the EU, will they have the same seven year restriction on labor movement just like the Romanians and the Bulgarians had?
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      03-04-2014, 05:00 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by M3Denver View Post
Russia invading makes no sense what so ever! It does not need the Ukraine, and the reason given was that there are "russian speakers" in the Ukraine, there are a shit load of Russians all over the globe... if that is a reason enough to invade then the world is going to war.

There are clearly other reasons at play which no one has blatantly reported on or voiced yet.
Putin has been sitting on this one for a long time. Why have the Olympics in Sochi, a tiny town in the middle of nowhere? Because it sits on the Black Sea coast close to Crimea. The Olympics were a chance for Putin to build up the town to an adequate size to house military units and to divert vast resources there unquestioned for 5 years. He's wanted Crimea for a while now.
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      03-04-2014, 08:20 PM   #9
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Russia called, it wants all the comm-block states back!!!
This is the way i see all this turmoil. For the past decade or so, EU has been egging on the comm-block states to join the EUcomminsim. Well, apparently the leash has ran out, and the big bear(Russia) is not going to take anymore of this EU crap.
Now, we have turmoil and the USA is getting roped in this conflict. F*** that!!!
The EU can send its Military(what military?) to separate/fight/and play police of Ukraine.
For all i care, they can poke their eyes out........not a USA problem aka Tax payer. Today our Gov was quick to give 1Billion for aid......My tax dollars at work. Now, how much is the EU sending "IN"
Funny thing is the EU is in bed with Russia for energy. The Germans are shutting down the nuclear plants in the up coming years, and are getting energy from Russia?!?!?!?Get ready German cars WILL get expensive.....
Ok........end rant/
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      03-05-2014, 01:08 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuz5150 View Post
Russia called, it wants all the comm-block states back!!!
This is the way i see all this turmoil. For the past decade or so, EU has been egging on the comm-block states to join the EUcomminsim. Well, apparently the leash has ran out, and the big bear(Russia) is not going to take anymore of this EU crap.
Now, we have turmoil and the USA is getting roped in this conflict. F*** that!!!
The EU can send its Military(what military?) to separate/fight/and play police of Ukraine.
For all i care, they can poke their eyes out........not a USA problem aka Tax payer. Today our Gov was quick to give 1Billion for aid......My tax dollars at work. Now, how much is the EU sending "IN"
Funny thing is the EU is in bed with Russia for energy. The Germans are shutting down the nuclear plants in the up coming years, and are getting energy from Russia?!?!?!?Get ready German cars WILL get expensive.....
Ok........end rant/
its a complex problem heres why. and why the US is involved.

Russia did or "pretty much" broke international law. and the people who enforce international law are manly the superpower nations.

this is what happens when a superpower violates a law. superpower nations cannot go into "battle" with each other. because both have a lot of worldly influence in all different aspects. Russia is the 4th largest oil producer (i believe). economically speaking the EU specially is heavily dependent oil from them(like you said). so its like the same counties who should punish Russia for there games, will also be hurt. which is why Russia will not be "punished"

the US is less concerned about what is going on with the EU stuff you talked about more concerned about Russia invading or taking over a another country.

best case is that Russia leaves and lets Ukraine try to work there stuff out. then we can get back to dealing with Iran and N Korea
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      03-05-2014, 04:09 PM   #11
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The whole situation is political... No war will come out of this...

Russia basically forced the EU to foot the $15B bill that Ukraine owes before it defaults....

US and EU have been eating into Russia's sphere of influence for years.... And Ukraine is a painful bite... Especially given that the US consulted coup...

Remember - USA illegally invaded Iraq.... UN did not authorize and condemnation followed....double standards seem the norm nowadays...
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      03-05-2014, 06:07 PM   #12
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1983 USA invaded Grenada for reason of safety for dozens of US citizens living there....

This is a direct comparison...
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      03-06-2014, 01:17 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Chadi335is View Post
Remember - USA illegally invaded Iraq.... UN did not authorize and condemnation followed....double standards seem the norm nowadays...
There are those who would disagree that it was an illegal invasion:

"[Colin] Powell, however, said: “What we did was totally consistent with international law.”

Officials in Britain, Australia and Poland also insisted the military action in Iraq was legal.

On Thursday, Prime Minister Tony Blair’s official spokesman reminded reporters that Britain’s attorney general, Lord Goldsmith, had found before the war that Britain was acting legally, citing three U.N. resolutions he said justified the use of force against Saddam.

Britain was a leading supporter of the U.S.-led March 2003 invasion that ousted Saddam, which followed months of bitter debate in the 15-nation Security Council.

Australian Prime Minister John Howard — a staunch U.S. supporter who defied widespread public anger to participate in the invasion — also dismissed claims that the military action violated international law.

“There had been a series of Security Council resolutions and the advice we had (was) that it was entirely legal,” Howard told Perth radio station 6PR."

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/6016893/ns...rnational-law/
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      03-06-2014, 06:36 AM   #14
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The invasion was illegal. The very word indicates that.

The fact that NATO did not join is an example.

UN did not sanction the invasion.... Therefore it was illegal to invade a sovereign nation
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      03-06-2014, 09:54 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chadi335is View Post
The invasion was illegal. The very word indicates that.

The fact that NATO did not join is an example.

UN did not sanction the invasion.... Therefore it was illegal to invade a sovereign nation
Why is this thread about Iraq now?

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      03-06-2014, 10:12 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Chadi335is View Post
1983 USA invaded Grenada for reason of safety for dozens of US citizens living there....

This is a direct comparison...
It's not a comparison. Safety of US citizens was one reason, security and security interests of the US was another. Because of the Grenada invasion, we only have one Cuba in the Carribean - not two.
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      03-06-2014, 10:46 AM   #17
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Why is this thread about Iraq now?

Funny how that works, right? I guess the right thing to do is just allow Russia to starve 7 million more Ukrainians to death.

--

More generally, the issue at play is that Russia signed a treaty promising not to invade Ukraine as long as they divested their nuclear weapons. They divested their nuclear weapons, and now Russia has invaded. The word "illegal" is a red herring here because all legalities go out the window when one country invades another. This is a case of a country that controls 30% of Europe's natural gas supply (and therefore a significant portion of global economic well-being) proving itself to be untrustworthy. I can't think of any cases offhand where the US promised not to invade a country, and then turned around and did it anyway. I'm confident that someone will tell me if I'm wrong about that.

It's in everybody's best interest for Europe to diversify its energy portfolio. If the Russians restrict supply to Europe for whatever reason, what ripple effect can that have on the US, on China, etc? I can guarantee you that it'll come with a hell of a lot more than a few billion dollars of hurt. Some hard decisions need to be made, and they won't come without some temper tantrums. But the bottom line is that some changes need to be made to that arrangement.

My two-cents, anyway.
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      03-07-2014, 12:23 PM   #18
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The issues in the Ukraine are very complex with different levels of interests at stake. The "Russian Way" is simply more direct whereas the West would've dressed it up via the UN.

This is another "pick your poison " moment. Will the West lend support to the new Ukrainian government which has reported to have neo-facists in its ranks or will it back channel support to Moscow?
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      03-07-2014, 12:27 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by pt View Post
Funny how that works, right? I guess the right thing to do is just allow Russia to starve 7 million more Ukrainians to death.

--

More generally, the issue at play is that Russia signed a treaty promising not to invade Ukraine as long as they divested their nuclear weapons. They divested their nuclear weapons, and now Russia has invaded. The word "illegal" is a red herring here because all legalities go out the window when one country invades another. This is a case of a country that controls 30% of Europe's natural gas supply (and therefore a significant portion of global economic well-being) proving itself to be untrustworthy. I can't think of any cases offhand where the US promised not to invade a country, and then turned around and did it anyway. I'm confident that someone will tell me if I'm wrong about that.

It's in everybody's best interest for Europe to diversify its energy portfolio. If the Russians restrict supply to Europe for whatever reason, what ripple effect can that have on the US, on China, etc? I can guarantee you that it'll come with a hell of a lot more than a few billion dollars of hurt. Some hard decisions need to be made, and they won't come without some temper tantrums. But the bottom line is that some changes need to be made to that arrangement.

My two-cents, anyway.

Russia nor did the US sign a treaty. It was just an agreement.
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      03-07-2014, 12:56 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Chadi335is View Post
The invasion was illegal. The very word indicates that.

The fact that NATO did not join is an example.

UN did not sanction the invasion.... Therefore it was illegal to invade a sovereign nation
In your eyes it may have been illegal. But who is Governing them now? The jackbooted of the United States? Or their own?
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      03-07-2014, 02:35 PM   #21
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In your eyes it may have been illegal. But who is Governing them now? The jackbooted of the United States? Or their own?
Doesn't matter. Funny thing is everyone talks about sanctions, but back in the day of invading Iraq no one said something about sanctions. I read the quote below from Kerry the other day and couldn't stop laughing.
Quote:
You just don't in the 21st century behave in 19th century fashion by invading another country on completely trumped up pre-text,"
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      03-07-2014, 02:46 PM   #22
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^^ Yeah, none remembers how all these naysayers were quiet when this happened. Some of them were even in support of the invasion.
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