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      11-02-2013, 11:06 AM   #1
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E9x M3, perhaps the Last, True ///M car

I have yet to drive the new 4 Series but have been driving a few new BMWs as I have them for loaners from time to time. We just had a 2013 328i and I was truly disappointed as it had No character. The car was SOFT, so I set it to the "Sport" setting and it felt a little better but still far from the E9x 3 Series in regular settings. It seems as BMW is focusing more on energy effificency than buliding the Ultimate Driving Machine.

To my surprise, the first comment my wife made after driving it for a day said it drove like the Toyota Camry we rented on one of our trips. That really summed it all up.

I am so grateful for having perhaps the Last True ///M car, the E92 M3 6 Speed.
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      11-02-2013, 11:15 AM   #2
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heres my view on the new BMWs.

They are great for most people looking for a nice car. they get good MPG, comfortable, and good looking cars. I had a 2011 328i, last week i had a 2013 328i from dealership. the cars have gotten softer no question. but i think maybe people do not really care.

my mother just got a 335i, and i think the cars is great for her. she said liked how the car was softer feel.....
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      11-02-2013, 11:33 AM   #3
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      11-02-2013, 11:46 AM   #4
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Comparing non-M cars to M-cars is not exactly a good predictor of the future
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      11-02-2013, 12:19 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alee0729 View Post
Comparing non-M cars to M-cars is not exactly a good predictor of the future
tell you what though while i agree. my 2011 328i with sports package only, had a better road feel and steering feel than the 2013 328i M sport the dealership gave me.

of course the M4 is probs going to feel WAYYYYY better.
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      11-02-2013, 12:31 PM   #6
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Comparing non-M cars to M-cars is not exactly a good predictor of the future
Maybe you are right. However, the editors in Motortrend were quite critical on the M6 in their Best Driver's car comparison. We will see if the new M4 will be the benchmark that BMW has been known for.
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      11-02-2013, 01:21 PM   #7
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Didn't people say this when the E9x was about to launch, citing the V8 as evidence that BMW had abandoned one of their signature features and that they must've made a fat lumbering pig if they had to use a V8 to hit their power to weight target? And now many of us, myself included, herald the E9x M3 as a truly brilliant achievement.

Bottom line is you can't have both mosquito weight AND the luxury, comfort, and convenience features that make a car livable as a DD, which is something people prize about the E9x even over the E46. Or at least you can't have that combo anywhere near M3 price points. Luxury/comfort vs performance is a spectrum, different cars will land at different points and different people will want them to be at other points.
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      11-02-2013, 01:24 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jphughan
Didn't people say this when the E9x was nearing release, using the V8 as a basis to accuse BMW of abandoning one of their signatures and clearly making a car that must be a fat lumbering pig if they had to use a V8 to hit their power to weight target? And now many of us herald the E9x M3 as a truly brilliant achievement.

Bottom line is you can't have both mosquito weight AND the luxury, comfort, and convenience features that make a car livable as a DD, which is something people prize about the E9x even over the E46. Or at least you can't have that combo anywhere near M3 price points. Luxury/comfort vs performance is a spectrum, different cars will land at different points and different people will want them to be at other points.
This is the most accurate and concise post I have seen in a long time.
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      11-02-2013, 01:38 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jphughan View Post
Didn't people say this when the E9x was about to launch, citing the V8 as evidence that BMW had abandoned one of their signature features and that they must've made a fat lumbering pig if they had to use a V8 to hit their power to weight target? And now many of us, myself included, herald the E9x M3 as a truly brilliant achievement.

Bottom line is you can't have both mosquito weight AND the luxury, comfort, and convenience features that make a car livable as a DD, which is something people prize about the E9x even over the E46. Or at least you can't have that combo anywhere near M3 price points. Luxury/comfort vs performance is a spectrum, different cars will land at different points and different people will want them to be at other points.
Well said
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      11-02-2013, 01:41 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jphughan View Post
Didn't people say this when the E9x was about to launch, citing the V8 as evidence that BMW had abandoned one of their signature features and that they must've made a fat lumbering pig if they had to use a V8 to hit their power to weight target? And now many of us, myself included, herald the E9x M3 as a truly brilliant achievement.

Bottom line is you can't have both mosquito weight AND the luxury, comfort, and convenience features that make a car livable as a DD, which is something people prize about the E9x even over the E46. Or at least you can't have that combo anywhere near M3 price points. Luxury/comfort vs performance is a spectrum, different cars will land at different points and different people will want them to be at other points.
heres the thing though. some may call the E92 heavy or not a true M car. or the E46 was the last M car.... blah blah..


AT LEAST the E9x M retained a high revving engine that was also F1 inspired. it had a something under its hood that is so rare to find these days.

these new engines don't sound very good, make fart noises, and are far from FI inspired. they are great for overall for making power and better MPG. but dam the car has lost its special feel if you ask me. BUT maybe its not possible for a company to make a engine like the s65 anymore.
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      11-02-2013, 01:47 PM   #11
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While you are grateful for owning E9X M3 I'll be smoking your ass on the race track and everywhere else in my F8X M3 SOON...hahaha
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      11-02-2013, 01:52 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chill72
While you are grateful for owning E9X M3 I'll be smoking your ass on the race track and everywhere else in my F8X M3 SOON...hahaha
We'll see how many laps you can get in down here in Texas before your turbos force you in. Very few turbo'd cars out on the track out here....
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      11-02-2013, 02:00 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezio View Post
AT LEAST the E9x M retained a high revving engine that was also F1 inspired. it had a something under its hood that is so rare to find these days.

these new engines don't sound very good, make fart noises, and are far from FI inspired. they are great for overall for making power and better MPG. but dam the car has lost its special feel if you ask me. BUT maybe its not possible for a company to make a engine like the s65 anymore.
Well I obviously can't comment on the F8x car yet, but I agree that the current car and engine is very special and it will be tough to replicate these days. Porsche somehow seems to have managed it with the GT3 even though its engine is based on the regular series engine rather than bespoke like the previous GT3 and the S85/S65 -- but it also costs ~$150K.

As for FI, I think it's a classic case of regulations and also customer whining about things like MPG and (alleged) lack of torque. The fact is that the overwhelming majority of M3s spend most of their time on public roads, and still a healthy majority have owners that are so cruel as to NEVER take their cars to the track, or even on fun, twisty back roads -- which is precisely where you need to be for this engine to truly shine. But an FI engine will shine a lot more for owners that doom their cars to monotonous driving locales. BMW is giving the majority what it wants, for better or worse.

I realized that when I got to drive a Cobb-tuned 335i last night for a little while. It was a savage level of power and torque up to about 80 MPH, enough that it would take me a while to get used to driving it confidently, but even though it was fast, it didn't feel as smooth or nearly as "balanced" as my car, even though I was only driving it somewhat aggressively on twisty roads because there was traffic around. But if my driving pattern were such that I didn't care about overall balance and just wanted a car that could be turned into a straight-line cruise missile every now and then, the engine of tuned 335i would fit that bill nicely. I imagine that's similar to what we'll get with the F8x M3/4, just with more balance, because that's how lots of owners use their cars.

But fwiw, I had previously taken the owner of said tuned 335i out in my car and he couldn't believe how awesome it was.
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      11-02-2013, 02:04 PM   #14
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M4 will be good. Stiffer, lighter, wider, lower center of gravity. The turbo engines tend to leave more power on the table for additional hp.

I'd love to have the original M3, I had a 86 325i and it was 'toss-able' as we say. Lot's of fun.

I think the E92 M3 is definitely a car worth owning. The engine is magnificent and it is well matched with an amazing chassis, brakes, transmission, It was a technological marvel in 07 when it was introduced, but it will prove to be a simpler car as we evolve into 'dynamics'. NA V8 may show up in another car like an M2. Never know.
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      11-02-2013, 02:11 PM   #15
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The difference is that the E9x M3 had vast improvements compared to the E46.

High-revving bespoke S65B40 N/A F1-derived engine, just like the S85B50. More power, higher redline, barely heavier than the E46 (engine). V8 noise and CF roof.

The F82 M4 will have problems. It's turbo'ed (HPFP, anyone?), lower redline, a smidge lighter, shit noise that's improved by speakers, terrible looking interior, lack of good-looking colors, and a plebeian S55, that shares bits with the N55B30. I don't like that the displacement is the same as the 335i...
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      11-02-2013, 02:16 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turbolag
The difference is that the E9x M3 had vast improvements compared to the E46.

High-revving bespoke S65B40 N/A F1-derived engine, just like the S85B50. More power, higher redline, barely heavier than the E46 (engine). V8 noise and CF roof.
Good points, but the S65 is actually lighter than the S54 since the former is aluminum and the latter is cast iron. Can't remember how much, somewhere in the tens of pounds I believe.
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      11-02-2013, 02:24 PM   #17
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I came from an E36 M3 and I was about to buy a new F30 before I decided on buying a used E90 M3. I'm pretty sure I would have been happy with the F30 and even with its 'softness'. It's a pretty nice car.
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      11-02-2013, 02:41 PM   #18
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Quote:
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While you are grateful for owning E9X M3 I'll be smoking your ass on the race track and everywhere else in my F8X M3 SOON...hahaha
Besides the cars, driver's mods are just as if not more important. Let's see what you got with all those Autobahn driving, Bring it on .... Hahaha
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      11-02-2013, 03:18 PM   #19
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Good points, but the S65 is actually lighter than the S54 since the former is aluminum and the latter is cast iron. Can't remember how much, somewhere in the tens of pounds I believe.
I made a guess on 'barely heavier' because I wasn't sure how much savings the aluminium would have over the iron. All I knew was that it wasn't really worth the E46 guys bitching about how much front-heavier the car was.
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      11-02-2013, 04:19 PM   #20
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Well I obviously can't comment on the F8x car yet, but I agree that the current car and engine is very special and it will be tough to replicate these days. Porsche somehow seems to have managed it with the GT3 even though its engine is based on the regular series engine rather than bespoke like the previous GT3 and the S85/S65 -- but it also costs ~$150K.

As for FI, I think it's a classic case of regulations and also customer whining about things like MPG and (alleged) lack of torque. The fact is that the overwhelming majority of M3s spend most of their time on public roads, and still a healthy majority have owners that are so cruel as to NEVER take their cars to the track, or even on fun, twisty back roads -- which is precisely where you need to be for this engine to truly shine. But an FI engine will shine a lot more for owners that doom their cars to monotonous driving locales. BMW is giving the majority what it wants, for better or worse.

I realized that when I got to drive a Cobb-tuned 335i last night for a little while. It was a savage level of power and torque up to about 80 MPH, enough that it would take me a while to get used to driving it confidently, but even though it was fast, it didn't feel as smooth or nearly as "balanced" as my car, even though I was only driving it somewhat aggressively on twisty roads because there was traffic around. But if my driving pattern were such that I didn't care about overall balance and just wanted a car that could be turned into a straight-line cruise missile every now and then, the engine of tuned 335i would fit that bill nicely. I imagine that's similar to what we'll get with the F8x M3/4, just with more balance, because that's how lots of owners use their cars.

But fwiw, I had previously taken the owner of said tuned 335i out in my car and he couldn't believe how awesome it was.
Except for the subjective feel of the engine with its incredible sound and wired-to-your-nervous-system throttle response, I am willing to bet the new M3/4 will be better in almost every way.

Why don't we all stop guessing and wait until the next gen car is actually out and can be directly compared to the e9x.
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      11-02-2013, 05:05 PM   #21
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Great discussion! Some back story: I have owned the E36 M3 and 3 series, the E46 M3 and 3 series and now the E90 M3 and 3 series. I am not a track person and I mostly drive on freeways and everyday driving. Once in a while a twisty road for fun.

My opinion is not technical but I have noticed a few things over the years. Any time a new version of the M3 or 3 series comes out, everyone complains about how the new one cant do what the old one can. We cannot discount that opinion because its true to an extend. Gradually the M3's and 3 series have become "softer". The connection to the road for me is being lost gradually. It makes me sad, but I continue to buy the cars because I enjoy them and adapt to the changes.

This time around, I will not be buying the newest version of the 3 series because I absolutely cannot get over the poor connection to the road. I tried the bottom model all the way to the M sport model. All disappointing to me! I felt like I was driving any sedan out there, it didn't feel like a BMW. I was so bummed at the disconnect with the road and I decided to grab another 2011 M3 with low miles, which I will keep for a long while.

Time will tell how the F80 stacks up to the predecessors, Im hoping its better than the current 3 series models.
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      11-02-2013, 05:09 PM   #22
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I just don't understand threads like these that try to compare one car against another that hasn't even been driven by the people that are comparing it.
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