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      04-06-2013, 10:28 PM   #177
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Benvo View Post
According to Sti, he had about 70 lbs in the trunk. The passenger was roughly 170lbs, so technically maybe there was a 10hp difference.
Not maybe for one and for two closer to 11 hp

These tunes provide about the same level of change, well maybe 15-20 hp at the best.

After all of the discussion and suggestions to have 100 lb unaccounted for leaves little to no credibility in any of this nonsense...
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      04-06-2013, 10:47 PM   #178
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Benvo View Post
According to Sti, he had about 70 lbs in the trunk. The passenger was roughly 170lbs, so technically maybe there was a 10hp difference.
Not maybe for one and for two closer to 11 hp

These tunes provide about the same level of change, well maybe 15-20 hp at the best.

After all of the discussion and suggestions to have 100 lb unaccounted for leaves little to no credibility in any of this nonsense...
I think you selectively quoted me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Benvo View Post
According to Sti, he had about 70 lbs in the trunk. The passenger was roughly 170lbs, so technically maybe there was a 10hp difference. I'm sure they will run again with no passengers and we can see that video when it happens.
StiTraitor: Please ask UBER///M3's passenger to sit with you in the passenger seat for the next round of videos. That way his weight will be in your car and UBER can run solo. I think that will be a good representation of the difference (pertaining to the weight differential).
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      04-07-2013, 02:32 AM   #179
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Originally Posted by STi_traitor View Post
If you would like to sponsor that kind of money that would be great. The OBD cables are VIN locked so we would need to buy another tune. We do run the same fuel from the same military gas stations.

Why would you say that we are so easily convinced?
The statement was directed towards all the people who say, the vid doesn't lie and there can only be one winner.

.
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Let me get this straight... You are swapping out parts designed by some of the top engineers in the world because some guys sponsored by a company told you it's "better??" But when you ask the same guy about tracking, "oh no, I have a kid now" or "I just detailed my car." or "i just got new tires."
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      04-07-2013, 03:02 AM   #180
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The video is interesting and the effort is appreciated, but it's pointless to pick apart the details. There are way too many variables here to make this a meaningful comparison and there is no way I'd say bpm is the superior tune based on this video.

Maybe if you had two brand new, bone stock, identically spec'ed cars, blinded the drivers and swapped tunes and ran multiple comparisons - then that would be a start. Obviously, that's not happening.

I'm not knocking the effort here - it's still interesting. Picking apart whether one car had a passenger or not is silly, considering the cars aren't even remotely spec'ed the same and the drivers are different.
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      04-07-2013, 04:50 AM   #181
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Benvo View Post
I think you selectively quoted me.



StiTraitor: Please ask UBER///M3's passenger to sit with you in the passenger seat for the next round of videos. That way his weight will be in your car and UBER can run solo. I think that will be a good representation of the difference (pertaining to the weight differential).
Mike, I will contact him today and we will finalize this once and for all. We will have no passengers and we will top off the gas tanks.
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      04-07-2013, 04:53 AM   #182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GJF View Post
Very Pointless indeed. I am suprised that so many people do not take this with a pinch of salt.

2 engines are never the same, the faster car could always be a slightly stronger car stock...

And then there is talk of a passenger??

Because the power difference is very small in these tunes, it makes it very difficult to carry out an accurate test.

It would have been better if the following was done, remember I saying "better"
not perfect.

Use 1 car, buy both ESS and BPM tune for same car.

Dyno the car stock, whilst logging intake temp. Get several dyno runs to be sure to get an accurate baseline. Each run should be done whilst watching intake air temp, coolant temp and kept very close between runs.

Then run the first tune and do the same keep intake air temp and coolant close to the values of stock runs. Perhaps log Ign timing, Lambda and vanos to get a little idea of what is going on. DO 10 runs at least, keeping temps as consistent as possible.

Then do the same on other tune. Even this method has it's flaws but still alot better than what was carried out on this thread.
You are ridiculous! There is no need to nit pick it like this. The difference is in the video. Even without the passenger on unrecorded test the BPM continued to pull in top end, ÜBER has agreed but hasn't state on the thread yet. Do you have a tune?
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      04-07-2013, 04:55 AM   #183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Not maybe for one and for two closer to 11 hp

These tunes provide about the same level of change, well maybe 15-20 hp at the best.

After all of the discussion and suggestions to have 100 lb unaccounted for leaves little to no credibility in any of this nonsense...
If we were referring to a woman on the 100LB difference I would agree!
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      04-07-2013, 05:04 AM   #184
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Quote:
Originally Posted by STi_traitor View Post
So what about you admitting the BPM tune had more pull than your ESS tune? This would also be including the pulls prior to our "teaser" video. I am just asking from one veteran buddy to another.

I think we all know what was originally planned. We literally parked at a gas station and prepped my GoPro for the video. We both knew what was coming of that. Enlighten me if I am wrong.

We did the same gear and same RPM (4500) for these runs. The first run was dead even off the start, as for the second, UBER had the jump on the start. Sorry that the clips are so short but my GoPro was acting funny. The videos still show a good idea of whats going on.

DO YOU NOT AGREE UBER?

yeah but IMO i think they are pretty much identical (saying that the cars are even prior) i thought the BPM was pulling our first day but i realized i was short shifting and when we went out the second time i was 100% sure that shifting was my issue...with that being said i believe they are so close that its a personal preference in tune brand and service
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      04-07-2013, 05:17 AM   #185
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Im outta this thread..there seems to be too much controversy even though as stated before that the cars are different specs with different variables...it was done in fun, but now its just more on the annoying side and a sales pawn...i just dont wanna be a part of it..Roman (ESS) isnt even taking part in this thread either...it was fun hearing this debate and there are other ESS tuned ///M3s in my area I just am backing out...Have fun continuing this thread my friends and keep it professional...maybe a member with extra money will pre dyno his car, then buy each tune to settle this once and for all

Mike Benvo your tune is very nice, I was 2 secs away from buying yours and the only reason I didnt was bc ill be ESS SCing so I decided to stick with the line...Great work
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      04-07-2013, 06:05 AM   #186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GJF View Post
I am ridiculous? Are you sure?

Just because I would like to see a test that has less variables, I am ridiculous?

Ok I understand.

Oh and by the way no I do not have any tune...
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      04-07-2013, 07:52 AM   #187
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Quote:
Originally Posted by STi_traitor View Post
You are ridiculous! There is no need to nit pick it like this. The difference is in the video. Even without the passenger on unrecorded test the BPM continued to pull in top end, ÜBER has agreed but hasn't state on the thread yet. Do you have a tune?
There is a difference in the video - but you cannot say the bpm tune is superior because of this test. There are just way too many variables to validate that.

I have been mulling over a tune for several weeks now - I don't doubt the bpm tune may have superior, subjective, drivability. To say that it's objectively better, however, is a different story. I have a hard time believing that NA tunes working within a reasonable safety envelope can be all that different from an absolute performance standpoint. It's going to take a more scientific method to say that this test was anything more definitive than just being a fun experiment.
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      04-07-2013, 09:23 AM   #188
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GJF View Post
I am ridiculous? Are you sure?

Just because I would like to see a test that has less variables, I am ridiculous?

Ok I understand.

Oh and by the way no I do not have any tune...
Quote:
Originally Posted by robotk View Post
There is a difference in the video - but you cannot say the bpm tune is superior because of this test. There are just way too many variables to validate that.

I have been mulling over a tune for several weeks now - I don't doubt the bpm tune may have superior, subjective, drivability. To say that it's objectively better, however, is a different story. I have a hard time believing that NA tunes working within a reasonable safety envelope can be all that different from an absolute performance standpoint. It's going to take a more scientific test to say that this test was anything more definitive than just being a fun experiment.

Can someone here please show me something that states how these cars each make different HP numbers? I can understand a HP or two but be realistic people. Now I am sure that you will come forward with different Dyno charts with stock M3's. You will now become hypocritical by incorporating variables as each dyno reads differently due to temperature and elevation among others. In the end your point to make of stating each car makes different HP is irrelevant. I have never heard of so many "variables" until coming into this forum where everyone seems to be the smartest engine/BMW GURU in the world.

Here is a single post stating that a Dyno itself also has too many variables. (Read this before moving forward.)

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showpos...9&postcount=13

So technically after reading something like this the people stating that each M3 makes a significant horsepower difference is wrong because their information cannot be backed up due to the amount of "variables".
Myself and UBER are showing two of the same cars with the same modifications side by side in the same environment. The first pull was equal on take off and BPM pulled ahead. The second pull you can clearly tell that the ESS car jumps first but in the end the BPM car reels him in. For those of you who say that a straight road is not acceptable for a comparison you are the DUMBEST people I have ever met! If you truly believe this than throw every test and comparison for every car in the world out the window. Fact, cars are tested on roads!!!!!

I did some math on the Tires and Wheel variables:

UBER M3: 305/30/19 tires which equates to:
Diameter: 26.2in
Sidewall: 3.6in
Circumference: 82.3 in <<-- this is important
Revoloutions/Mile: 770

STi_Traitor: 265/40/18 tires which equates to:
Diameter: 26.3in
Sidewall: 4.17in
Circumference: 82.7 in <<-- this is important
Revoloutions/Mile: 765.9

So the EFFECTIVE difference seems to be 4/revolutions per mile, and it seems that I have more rotating circumference than UBER's car with the 30 profile tires, which seems to be in his advantage.

In the end I think what is happening here is 1. people want to just add anything and everything due to boredom. 2. The ESS fanboys need to get off their high chair because BPM is providing a product that is great!!!
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      04-07-2013, 10:05 AM   #189
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Uber would have more rotational mass having the bigger wheels, although the circumference is is slightly larger on your side.

Regardless, good runs guys. Make some friendly pulls if you want or have time with no passengers or with Ubers passenger in your car and see what happens.

Sti, that's a very good post that you linked. Sal and I have had extremely long conversations on this matter. It is absolutely true that its difficult sometimes to see actual gains on the dyno, because replicating real world conditions in an uncontrolled environment is not plausible. If you log ignition timing on the dyno vs on the street you will see that the car will normally have more problems on the dyno due to heat buildup, lack of airflow, exhaust gas recirculation, etc. Although we feel our tunes match or exceed the completion in power gains, there is so much more to performance software than just WOT power. What percentage of time when driving the car are you at part throttle vs full throttle? 90% of driving is under partial load so it is essential not to overlook this when designing software.

Too much fighting here, everyone just enjoy your tunes
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      04-07-2013, 11:27 AM   #190
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Benvo View Post
Über would have more rotational mass having the bigger wheels, although the circumference is is slightly larger on your side.

Regardless, good runs guys. Make some friendly pulls if you want or have time with no passengers or with über a passenger in your car and see what happens.

Sti, that's a very good post that you linked. Sal and I have had extremely long conversations on this matter. It is absolutely true that its difficult sometimes to see actual gains on the dyno, because replicating real world conditions in an uncontrolled environment is not plausible. If you log ignition timing on the dyno vs on the street you will see that the car will normally have more problems on the dyno due to heat buildup, lack of airflow, exhaust gas recirculation, etc. Although we feel our tunes match or exceed the completion in power gains, there is so much more to performance software than just WOT power. What percentage of time when driving the car are you at part throttle vs full throttle? 90% of driving is under partial load so it is essential not to overlook this when designing software.

Too much fighting here, everyone just enjoy your tunes
Mike im allllll with you on this one if we were identical then id continue but with our car...wheels 305s vs 265 (big diff) and a few hp, also shifting differences that we've had that made a huge diferene there's clearly a good amount of variables...i learn a lot from this and yourself and ESS know way more than myself...i just hate this fun turning into negaive and thats why i pulled out of this...both tunes are pretty much alike (with dependability/daily driving kept in mind)...like i said earlier its a just test pipes and a tune..someone weathly enough can buy both tunes if they really need to know which tune is so called "better" thanks and youre a true professional understanding this along with the ESS crew
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      04-07-2013, 11:42 AM   #191
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UBER ///M3 View Post
Mike im allllll with you on this one if we were identical then id continue but with our car...wheels 305s vs 265 (big diff) and a few hp, also shifting differences that we've had that made a huge diferene there's clearly a good amount of variables...i learn a lot from this and yourself and ESS know way more than myself...i just hate this fun turning into negaive and thats why i pulled out of this...both tunes are pretty much alike (with dependability/daily driving kept in mind)...like i said earlier its a just test pipes and a tune..someone weathly enough can buy both tunes if they really need to know which tune is so called "better" thanks and youre a true professional understanding this along with the ESS crew
All good

I think you should both flash back to stock and then run again with no passengers. Both should be in D5 shifting mode so there is no variable there. If you want to get "reallly" technical, your car is two years newer and probably has newer and better DCT software. But if it's more or less equal both runing stock tunes than I would think that the tuned results have more weight. I don't think the wheels are a gigantic difference in this case, in fact, circumference wise you actually have a slight advantage. On the flip side, you likely have more mass to rotate. So the best way is to get a base with both running stock and then go from there.

Also it might be cool for you guys to switch cars and drive eachothers cars so you get a "feel" for response, and part throttle application, etc.. There is more to a tune that just full throttle!!

But work it out between you two and both of you obviously have awesome rides and the best place in the world to drive them hard!
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      04-07-2013, 11:55 AM   #192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UBER ///M3 View Post
Im outta this thread..there seems to be too much controversy even though as stated before that the cars are different specs with different variables...it was done in fun, but now its just more on the annoying side and a sales pawn...i just dont wanna be a part of it..Roman (ESS) isnt even taking part in this thread either...it was fun hearing this debate and there are other ESS tuned ///M3s in my area I just am backing out...Have fun continuing this thread my friends and keep it professional...maybe a member with extra money will pre dyno his car, then buy each tune to settle this once and for all

Mike Benvo your tune is very nice, I was 2 secs away from buying yours and the only reason I didnt was bc ill be ESS SCing so I decided to stick with the line...Great work
The reason I have not commented in this thread is because it is simply silly to think you are going to compare two NA tunes on two different cars with two different drivers and get any real scientific data from it. I also would not be foolish enough to take any sort of credit or do marketing based off results from such comparisons knowing the amount of variables involved and the small difference NA tunes can really make in power from one to the other.

In the end you guys have fun and enjoy your cars. The only thing that matters is that you are happy with your tunes and you like the way your car drives. Let me know when you are ready for your SCer
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      04-07-2013, 11:58 AM   #193
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All good

I think you should both flash back to stock and then run again with no passengers. Both should be in D5 shifting mode so there is no variable there. If you want to get "reallly" technical, your car is two years newer and probably has newer and better DCT software. But if it's more or less equal both runing stock tunes than I would think that the tuned results have more weight. I don't think the wheels are a gigantic difference in this case, in fact, circumference wise you actually have a slight advantage. On the flip side, you likely have more mass to rotate. So the best way is to get a base with both running stock and then go from there.

Also it might be cool for you guys to switch cars and drive eachothers cars so you get a "feel" for response, and part throttle application, etc.. There is more to a tune that just full throttle!!

But work it out between you two and both of you obviously have awesome rides and the best place in the world to drive them hard!
yeah thanks thats why im backing out of this i feel its turned negative and thats the last thing that i want out of this wonderful forum...it was fun and both tunes are great thanks and good luck with all that you do providing an excellent service to the ///M3 community
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      04-07-2013, 12:03 PM   #194
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Originally Posted by Roman@ESS View Post
The reason I have not commented in this thread is because it is simply silly to think you are going to compare two NA tunes on two different cars with two different drivers and get any real scientific data from it. I also would not be foolish enough to take any sort of credit or do marketing based off results from such comparisons knowing the amount of variables involved and the small difference NA tunes can really make in power from one to the other.

In the end you guys have fun and enjoy your cars. The only thing that matters is that you are happy with your tunes and you like the way your car drives. Let me know when you are ready for your SCer
^^^ im 1,000,000 percent behind you and thats why im not doing it brother bc it makes no sense after doing my research...cant wait for your supercharger to be on my ride...thanks for all your help and your customer service is the absolute best along with the ACM guys
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      04-07-2013, 12:21 PM   #195
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Im outta this thread..there seems to be too much controversy even though as stated before that the cars are different specs with different variables...it was done in fun, but now its just more on the annoying side and a sales pawn...i just dont wanna be a part of it..Roman (ESS) isnt even taking part in this thread either...it was fun hearing this debate and there are other ESS tuned ///M3s in my area I just am backing out...Have fun continuing this thread my friends and keep it professional...maybe a member with extra money will pre dyno his car, then buy each tune to settle this once and for all

Mike Benvo your tune is very nice, I was 2 secs away from buying yours and the only reason I didnt was bc ill be ESS SCing so I decided to stick with the line...Great work
It blows my mind how you have stated that you are down for this, we do a few test runs and you see that my car pulls so we do a few more and its only reduced to less of a pull because you decided to adjust your shifting point. Then we do a few more on the Autobahn with you getting pulled on and you quit all of a sudden talking about "variables" this and "variables" that. You stated to me at least two times that you see the BPM tune pulling harder but now you say we are even? WTF Dude!?!?!?!

Your a friend of mine but you are back pedaling and only feeding the trolls and allowing them to win with there Million variables BS!

BPM clearly has the better over all tune and you know it bro! That is what we started this for and you can't even end it properly, just quitting.
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      04-07-2013, 12:25 PM   #196
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I guess this is where it ends! Go ahead and lock this "pointless" thread just like the others!

SHEEP!!!

Last edited by STi_traitor; 04-07-2013 at 01:03 PM.
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      04-07-2013, 12:29 PM   #197
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Originally Posted by STi_traitor View Post
It blows my mind how you have stated that you are down for this, we do a few test runs and you see that my car pulls so we do a few more and its only reduced to less of a pull because you decided to adjust your shifting point. Then we do a few more on the Autobahn with you getting pulled on and you quit all of a sudden talking about "variables" this and "variables" that. You stated to me at least two times that you see the BPM tune pulling harder but now you say we are even? WTF Dude!?!?!?!

Your a friend of mine but you are back pedaling and only feeding the trolls and allowing them to win with there Million variables BS!

BPM clearly has the better over all tune and you know it bro! That is what we started this for and you can't even end it properly, just quitting.
i thought it was pulling hard and i was shifting premature and never thought so after, not once...IMO they are so even that shifting a few rms earlier or later will change the outcome..even as i rode with a 187 lbs person in my car..thats the whole reason why im backing out..this is so small of an issue to debate over that its not worth it to waste time...someone with money to burn buy 1 of each tune and settle this once and for all please and thank you...also its just a tune and test pipes not like a huge mod
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      04-07-2013, 12:29 PM   #198
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I think that both cars should flash to stock and then compare.

After that there is a baseline to go off of. Full tank of gas, same tire pressures, same shifting mode, etc..

Then tune and see what happens. Sti, ill even send you a logging software so you can log the runs

Anyway, no one should get bent out of shape about this.
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