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      02-21-2013, 09:52 AM   #67
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The funny thing is though is the same people saying this will be useless data, are the ones that often request dyno data from people which is entirely useless. Dyno pulls have so many variables they really are not applicable to anyone yet they seem to not only be accepted but requested or demanded when someone gets a mod.

An actual run on the road shows real world performance and I for one would much rather accept slight variations in the real world performance than the myriad of variables a random car has on a random dyno. So many factors on a dyno that may show 20 hp gain on some random car with a tune or mod yet we don't have true air flow, no clue about adaptions, no clue about whether timing is being hit, a/f, dyno setup etc.

Real world takes 2 stock cars that really should normalize quite well to any other healthy stock m3. You put a tune on and real world run the car. If it pulls harder than the next car I think that is info I would take to the bank over a random dyno
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      02-21-2013, 09:56 AM   #68
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As STi_traitor and UBER ///M3 stated, they are doing it for the fun of it. Is the comparison going to be 100% accurate, of course not. But it will be nice to see how each car responds.

So for those of you who want to be negative and come with the "this is pointless", I suggest you keep those thoughts to yourself.

Last edited by DopeM3; 02-21-2013 at 01:31 PM.
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      02-21-2013, 11:04 AM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3takesNYC View Post
The funny thing is though is the same people saying this will be useless data, are the ones that often request dyno data from people which is entirely useless. Dyno pulls have so many variables they really are not applicable to anyone yet they seem to not only be accepted but requested or demanded when someone gets a mod.

An actual run on the road shows real world performance and I for one would much rather accept slight variations in the real world performance than the myriad of variables a random car has on a random dyno. So many factors on a dyno that may show 20 hp gain on some random car with a tune or mod yet we don't have true air flow, no clue about adaptions, no clue about whether timing is being hit, a/f, dyno setup etc.

Real world takes 2 stock cars that really should normalize quite well to any other healthy stock m3. You put a tune on and real world run the car. If it pulls harder than the next car I think that is info I would take to the bank over a random dyno
+1000

Thank you! This is a very good point, well said. Dyno queens are the worst BTW.

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Originally Posted by AyooooJay View Post
As STi_traitor and UBER ///M3 stated, they are doing it for the fun of it. Is the comparison going to be 100% accurate, of course not. But it will nice too see how each car responds.

So for those of you who want to be negative and come with the "this is pointless", I suggest you keep those thoughts to yourself.
+1

Lets remember people, not everything is 100% so lets give this a try.
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      02-21-2013, 12:02 PM   #70
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Dyno data isn't meaningless unless the variance is just a few hp (~5hp plus or minus). When I see a dyno of a car with test pipes and tune with ~40whp more, that has meaning. But I've dynoed a car back to back with the same car putting down a few more or less hp 5 min later (hint: it wasn't because the car got more powerful by sitting still 5 minutes). I think pitting 2 main tunes against each other in these circumstances is kind of silly, since the hp variation between the 2 is almost certainly less than 10 hp (2-3%).

What I'm getting at is that even if the cars were 100% identical in terms of wheels/tires/options and same driver, the results would not mean much. Add those variables in, and it is worthless (except for fun).

Having a run like that for fun is fine of course, except that a lot of people are going to watch it and say "oh gee, tune #1 won the race so it makes more power!"
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      02-21-2013, 01:00 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Porschefile View Post
Dyno data isn't meaningless unless the variance is just a few hp (~5hp plus or minus). When I see a dyno of a car with test pipes and tune with ~40whp more, that has meaning. But I've dynoed a car back to back with the same car putting down a few more or less hp 5 min later (hint: it wasn't because the car got more powerful by sitting still 5 minutes). I think pitting 2 main tunes against each other in these circumstances is kind of silly, since the hp variation between the 2 is almost certainly less than 10 hp (2-3%).

What I'm getting at is that even if the cars were 100% identical in terms of wheels/tires/options and same driver, the results would not mean much. Add those variables in, and it is worthless (except for fun).

Having a run like that for fun is fine of course, except that a lot of people are going to watch it and say "oh gee, tune #1 won the race so it makes more power!"
Okay, well it is for fun and people can take what they want from it. After we post the video you should make another thread and get detailed about it with your extensive knowledge.

I have a question for you. What if after the stock tunes are proven equal one of the aftermarket tunes pulls harder than the other? What is the explanation for this? I am not saying one will but what if?
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      02-21-2013, 01:05 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by STi_traitor View Post
Okay, well it is for fun and people can take what they want from it. After we post the video you should make another thread and get detailed about it with your extensive knowledge.

I have a question for you. What if after the stock tunes are proven equal one of the aftermarket tunes pulls harder than the other? What is the explanation for this? I am not saying one will but what if?
It wouldn't be a very long thread... it would just say your results aren't indicative of the power of either tune.

It could be any number of things. I don't know as much about them as many people on the forum (Mike/Tech/Any ESS employee etc.), but adaptation is a big variable. A tune doesn't make its peak power instantaneously, it takes some driving to get to that.

I'm not trying to say don't run your cars, I've done pointless races myself, I'm just saying that the actual results don't show that either tune is stronger.

I don't have a dog in the fight since I am not tuned, and stopped modifying my M3 when I bought a racecar I have to feed.
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      02-21-2013, 01:12 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Porschefile View Post
It wouldn't be a very long thread... it would just say your results aren't indicative of the power of either tune.

It could be any number of things. I don't know as much about them as many people on the forum (Mike/Tech/Any ESS employee etc.), but adaptation is a big variable. A tune doesn't make its peak power instantaneously, it takes some driving to get to that.

I'm not trying to say don't run your cars, I've done pointless races myself, I'm just saying that the actual results don't show that either tune is stronger.

I don't have a dog in the fight since I am not tuned, and stopped modifying my M3 when I bought a racecar I have to feed.
Understood on allowing the vehicle to adapt. That is going to be taken into account of course. Just for you and the others on here, we will ensure that when I post the video I will state not to favor one over the other due one hundred million "variables" that have been stated on here. Does that sound good?

What type of racecar do you have? Is it the one for your picture?
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      02-21-2013, 01:15 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Porschefile View Post
It wouldn't be a very long thread... it would just say your results aren't indicative of the power of either tune.

It could be any number of things. I don't know as much about them as many people on the forum (Mike/Tech/Any ESS employee etc.), but adaptation is a big variable. A tune doesn't make its peak power instantaneously, it takes some driving to get to that.

I'm not trying to say don't run your cars, I've done pointless races myself, I'm just saying that the actual results don't show that either tune is stronger.

I don't have a dog in the fight since I am not tuned, and stopped modifying my M3 when I bought a racecar I have to feed.
So to clarify you are posting numerous posts arguing how even after two stock cars are deemed equally fast, that a tune vs tune run would not be accurate yet you don't even know why? Adapatations are reset with the tune install. You both do 5 full throttle pulls and that will re-adapt the car to everything.

You run the cars and mash the gas. Anyone that says there is some other magic at work or variables that really matter beside the parameters of the tune in this case is really just nitpicking over nothing.

Those not interested in the results maybe should not keep posting. I for one will enjoy these results.

It seems like people almost don't want to know in fear their tune may be deemed the lesser tune or for some other reasons.
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      02-21-2013, 01:19 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by STi_traitor View Post
Understood on allowing the vehicle to adapt. That is going to be taken into account of course. Just for you and the others on here, we will ensure that when I post the video I will state not to favor one over the other due one hundred million "variables" that have been stated on here. Does that sound good?

What type of racecar do you have? Is it the one for your picture?
Cool, I think that sounds fair, I just get annoyed with misleading comparisons (more often in track section or vs. than here) that ignore a huge variable (like driver).

Yep, a 2000 Formula Mazda. It is as much fun as you can have for that price range. I would rather have a Formula BMW, but they're a different price bracket and not really raced in the US to my knowledge.
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      02-21-2013, 01:21 PM   #76
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All I can say is that I agree with the notion that both should run in an agreed upon dct automatic mode. No paddle shifting, that just adds potential for error

Run both cars in some dct or sport mode.
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      02-21-2013, 01:24 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Porschefile View Post
Cool, I think that sounds fair, I just get annoyed with misleading comparisons (more often in track section or vs. than here) that ignore a huge variable (like driver).

Yep, a 2000 Formula Mazda. It is as much fun as you can have for that price range. I would rather have a Formula BMW, but they're a different price bracket and not really raced in the US to my knowledge.
Okay, but a driver variable on a straight line with DCT? I don't see how we can really make that big of a difference. It's not like I am seeing a random guy on the street and giving it one try, then posting a crazy half a$$ video. There will be time and effort put into this with quality video. We could spend all day and two tanks or three on this to really fine tune so to say.

That Formula car sounds like a blast, those cars look amazing in races. Like they are on tracks!
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      02-21-2013, 01:26 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KennyPowers View Post
All I can say is that I agree with the notion that both should run in an agreed upon dct automatic mode. No paddle shifting, that just adds potential for error

Run both cars in some dct or sport mode.
This will be planned. I believe we can handle the paddles in a straight line to redline with miles upon miles of road to spare.
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      02-21-2013, 01:30 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Porschefile View Post
Dyno data isn't meaningless unless the variance is just a few hp (~5hp plus or minus). When I see a dyno of a car with test pipes and tune with ~40whp more, that has meaning. But I've dynoed a car back to back with the same car putting down a few more or less hp 5 min later (hint: it wasn't because the car got more powerful by sitting still 5 minutes). I think pitting 2 main tunes against each other in these circumstances is kind of silly, since the hp variation between the 2 is almost certainly less than 10 hp (2-3%).

What I'm getting at is that even if the cars were 100% identical in terms of wheels/tires/options and same driver, the results would not mean much. Add those variables in, and it is worthless (except for fun).

Having a run like that for fun is fine of course, except that a lot of people are going to watch it and say "oh gee, tune #1 won the race so it makes more power!"
+1

The only real way to test tunes because the power difference is most likely only 5-10 HP if any is the dyno. Same car, same fuel, same dyno, same day using the average of several runs.

Having some runs for fun is still a good idea if you have access to the Autobahn
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      02-21-2013, 02:19 PM   #80
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Guys, I am all for a couple of friendly runs in the sake of fun. Hell if I were in Germany and had access to the autobahn I would come out there and run with you guys!!! The problem I have with this is the title and stating that it is BPM vs. ESS. The test is not fair to Benvo or ESS unless there is a proper testing method established and followed! I work on and around engines and flash ECM's on a regular basis (not on automotive but the principles are exactly the same) and I can tell you one thing for sure, when we dyno an engine after a rebuild, the procedure and controls are extremely strict to ensure certified results.

So with all that being said, have fun, enjoy your cars and be safe, but realize that this test will be just for that, FUN! The results will be too skewed for conclusions to be drawn.

I wish Jason would allow Robert (Pencilgeek) back on here, he added so much to the forum and M3 community. We have him to thank for the dyno DB, our dyno calibration parameters for the M3 and so much more and he could suggest a procedure to make this test valid.
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      02-21-2013, 02:24 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by STi_traitor View Post
Okay, but a driver variable on a straight line with DCT? I don't see how we can really make that big of a difference. It's not like I am seeing a random guy on the street and giving it one try, then posting a crazy half a$$ video. There will be time and effort put into this with quality video. We could spend all day and two tanks or three on this to really fine tune so to say.

That Formula car sounds like a blast, those cars look amazing in races. Like they are on tracks!
A slight reaction time difference could affect it, but yeah if they're in auto mode then that at least eliminates that. BMRLVR's latest reply is exactly the point I was trying to get across.

Yep, I love it. 1350lb with driver and fluids and 200hp, and more downforce than it weighs at top speed is full of awesome.
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      02-21-2013, 02:27 PM   #82
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Yep, I love it. 1350lb with driver and fluids and 200hp, and more downforce than it weighs at top speed is full of awesome.
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      02-21-2013, 04:37 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMRLVR
Guys, I am all for a couple of friendly runs in the sake of fun. Hell if I were in Germany and had access to the autobahn I would come out there and run with you guys!!! The problem I have with this is the title and stating that it is BPM vs. ESS. The test is not fair to Benvo or ESS unless there is a proper testing method established and followed! I work on and around engines and flash ECM's on a regular basis (not on automotive but the principles are exactly the same) and I can tell you one thing for sure, when we dyno an engine after a rebuild, the procedure and controls are extremely strict to ensure certified results.

So with all that being said, have fun, enjoy your cars and be safe, but realize that this test will be just for that, FUN! The results will be too skewed for conclusions to be drawn.

I wish Jason would allow Robert (Pencilgeek) back on here, he added so much to the forum and M3 community. We have him to thank for the dyno DB, our dyno calibration parameters for the M3 and so much more and he could suggest a procedure to make this test valid.
+1.
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      02-21-2013, 04:50 PM   #84
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      02-21-2013, 10:52 PM   #85
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Good luck guys, looking forward to the results.
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      02-21-2013, 11:48 PM   #86
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How is this not fair to Mr Benvo or ESS? They sell their tune as a product for someone to put on their car to increase performance over a stock car. You run two stock cares with the same mods. They run equally together. You put a tune on and the winner is the winner. If one car pulls hard on the other after they pulled equal stock given they had several adaptation pulls, than what other possible explanation could there be to one car pulling hard on the other?

I am open to explanations of what else could possibly allow one care to pull on the other besides the tune if that is the only variable changed?
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      02-22-2013, 02:23 AM   #87
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Good Luck I can't wait for the results!! Subscribed
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      02-22-2013, 03:46 AM   #88
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I hesitate to suggest one other possible variable but it needs to be stated. Now that the thread title is out there and this fairly healthy debating has already begun there is some pressure. There is a chance that a vendor could supply some "ringer" code for the competition. I am not accusing anyone, just pointing out it is possible.
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