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      02-20-2013, 05:41 AM   #45
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yeah i totally agree thats a good idea for the wheels...id need to borrow OEm set bc i dont have them anymore...anyone wanna let me borrow a set wrapped in PSS? either that or Manari06 will have to come and do this for the taping and i just enjoy the fun
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      02-20-2013, 06:04 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UBER ///M3 View Post
yeah i totally agree thats a good idea for the wheels...id need to borrow OEm set bc i dont have them anymore...anyone wanna let me borrow a set wrapped in PSS? either that or Manari06 will have to come and do this for the taping and i just enjoy the fun
Agreed, but I still think in the end we will just do it with your offset. I don't think this will make a life altering decision in the comparison.
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      02-20-2013, 07:30 AM   #47
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Agreed, but I still think in the end we will just do it with your offset. I don't think this will make a life altering decision in the comparison.
+1
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      02-20-2013, 11:42 AM   #48
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Concur that the only valid comparison is to reduce the variables and to do that both cars need to run a baseline and then run both tunes. There are guys out there, probably very few, that have both tunes. They just need to come out and run a comparison.
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      02-20-2013, 01:53 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Longbow64 View Post
Concur that the only valid comparison is to reduce the variables and to do that both cars need to run a baseline and then run both tunes. There are guys out there, probably very few, that have both tunes. They just need to come out and run a comparison.
I doubt there is anyone out there with both tunes or it would have been done by now. Anyone who wants to donate for the greater cause can paypal me money and I will do both tunes.

Thanks for your input!
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      02-20-2013, 06:39 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by BMRLVR View Post
I do realize that they are locked to the VIN but putting tunes on the same car is in reality the only true way for a 100% accurate comparison.

At the very least I think both guys should be running stock wheel and tire sizes....... Maybe someone can loan the gentleman with the 305's a set of stock wheels/tires to make the comparison a little more legitimate!
Sorry but this relaly makes no sense. Tires size or any other mods would be accounted for in the stock vs stock pulls. First step is stock runs and if they are equal than all of those things don't matter.

Once stock vs stock is established equal than the cars can essentially be considered equal enough. Throw a tune on each car and hit the gas. Again if it comes down to that tiny of a difference than the test shows they are equal. If one car pulls than what other factor could it be if stock runs are equal? Nothing, so it will tell you which tune is making the most usable power. Enough said
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      02-20-2013, 06:47 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3takesNYC View Post
Sorry but this relaly makes no sense. Tires size or any other mods would be accounted for in the stock vs stock pulls. First step is stock runs and if they are equal than all of those things don't matter.

Once stock vs stock is established equal than the cars can essentially be considered equal enough. Throw a tune on each car and hit the gas. Again if it comes down to that tiny of a difference than the test shows they are equal. If one car pulls than what other factor could it be if stock runs are equal? Nothing, so it will tell you which tune is making the most usable power. Enough said
They are running different size tires and presumably non oem wheels.

But yes, some of you guys take this way too serious. Should of just posted the thread when you had the videos.
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      02-20-2013, 06:51 PM   #52
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Is this really going to show anything?

We are talking about 20 HP. You feel that the first day you get it and that's about it.
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      02-20-2013, 07:10 PM   #53
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OMG, this is sooo pointless. First of all the 2 cars you are using are too different to create a controlled enviornment to show any sort of comparable difference. Second, power wise we are talking peanuts. Less than peanuts.
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      02-20-2013, 08:49 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3takesNYC
Quote:
Originally Posted by BMRLVR View Post
I do realize that they are locked to the VIN but putting tunes on the same car is in reality the only true way for a 100% accurate comparison.

At the very least I think both guys should be running stock wheel and tire sizes....... Maybe someone can loan the gentleman with the 305's a set of stock wheels/tires to make the comparison a little more legitimate!
Sorry but this relaly makes no sense. Tires size or any other mods would be accounted for in the stock vs stock pulls. First step is stock runs and if they are equal than all of those things don't matter.

Once stock vs stock is established equal than the cars can essentially be considered equal enough. Throw a tune on each car and hit the gas. Again if it comes down to that tiny of a difference than the test shows they are equal. If one car pulls than what other factor could it be if stock runs are equal? Nothing, so it will tell you which tune is making the most usable power. Enough said
You are making no sense!

It has been proven time after time that different cars respond differently to the exact same mods. I have never seen two exact dyno curves from two different cars yet. Yes they will be similar but the software is going to make different numbers on different cars.

All I was trying to do is eliminate yet another one of the variables by suggesting that both cars run the same wheel and tire setups.

If you think this test will prove anything without running the both tunes on both cars than go ahead and think it. I work on engines for a living and I can tell you that when running up two different (mechanically exact) engines on the dyno the numbers are never the same even thought technically they should be!
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      02-20-2013, 09:36 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMRLVR View Post
You are making no sense!

It has been proven time after time that different cars respond differently to the exact same mods. I have never seen two exact dyno curves from two different cars yet. Yes they will be similar but the software is going to make different numbers on different cars.

All I was trying to do is eliminate yet another one of the variables by suggesting that both cars run the same wheel and tire setups.

If you think this test will prove anything without running the both tunes on both cars than go ahead and think it. I work on engines for a living and I can tell you that when running up two different (mechanically exact) engines on the dyno the numbers are never the same even thought technically they should be!

+1

I'm not sure how tuning two different cars with different supporting mods will show which tune is better.
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      02-20-2013, 09:52 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMRLVR View Post
You are making no sense!

It has been proven time after time that different cars respond differently to the exact same mods. I have never seen two exact dyno curves from two different cars yet. Yes they will be similar but the software is going to make different numbers on different cars.

All I was trying to do is eliminate yet another one of the variables by suggesting that both cars run the same wheel and tire setups.

If you think this test will prove anything without running the both tunes on both cars than go ahead and think it. I work on engines for a living and I can tell you that when running up two different (mechanically exact) engines on the dyno the numbers are never the same even thought technically they should be!
+1, the only way to get remotely close is to dyno the same car. Run one tune and break it in for a couple hundred miles, dyno, and then repeat with the other tune.
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      02-20-2013, 09:53 PM   #57
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If two cars run side by side in their curred modified specs than simply flashing a tune on each will not change the way the mods run on a car. Of course nothing is absolutely exact but if both cars are catless, have dct and are roughly the same weight, use the same fuel etc. Run stock and are evenf. Then the tune will simply supplement the car and you will get a darn good idea of which tune is faster if one car outruns the other.
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      02-20-2013, 10:55 PM   #58
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I second the motion for swapping tunes on the same car. Having two car, different tune on each car creates far too many variables to consider. The ideal scenario would be 1 car, swap tunes, dyno, then VBOX.
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      02-21-2013, 01:04 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3takesNYC View Post
If two cars run side by side in their curred modified specs than simply flashing a tune on each will not change the way the mods run on a car. Of course nothing is absolutely exact but if both cars are catless, have dct and are roughly the same weight, use the same fuel etc. Run stock and are evenf. Then the tune will simply supplement the car and you will get a darn good idea of which tune is faster if one car outruns the other.
If this is what you think than so be it! I for one will place no weight in the results if there are no proper controls or procedures put in place to validate the results.
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      02-21-2013, 03:28 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sensi09 View Post
They are running different size tires and presumably non oem wheels.

But yes, some of you guys take this way too serious. Should of just posted the thread when you had the videos.
Thought about this but now I am having fun with all this debating.
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      02-21-2013, 06:15 AM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3takesNYC View Post
Sorry but this relaly makes no sense. Tires size or any other mods would be accounted for in the stock vs stock pulls. First step is stock runs and if they are equal than all of those things don't matter.

Once stock vs stock is established equal than the cars can essentially be considered equal enough. Throw a tune on each car and hit the gas. Again if it comes down to that tiny of a difference than the test shows they are equal. If one car pulls than what other factor could it be if stock runs are equal? Nothing, so it will tell you which tune is making the most usable power. Enough said
I agree, this is a good point in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by HighandDry View Post
Is this really going to show anything?

We are talking about 20 HP. You feel that the first day you get it and that's about it.
I am sure this will show something. I am not sure if it is 20HP +/-. I will tell you this, when I went against him last week on my stock map against his ESS map there was a night and day difference between the two. He pulled like crazy on my from the start. By half a mile he had been atleast 2 to 3 car lengths (roughly) on me and was still going but we ran out of room. This was after multiple runs. So even if it is just 20HP it still made a huge difference on stock vs ESS. If you would have read my original post you would have know this.

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Originally Posted by RingMeister01 View Post
OMG, this is sooo pointless. First of all the 2 cars you are using are too different to create a controlled enviornment to show any sort of comparable difference. Second, power wise we are talking peanuts. Less than peanuts.
Read my above post, we are running catless (400 cells). It's not peanuts, its a huge difference for the fact I have witnessed it myself. Another note is that they are the same exact car with similar modifications. The only difference now is that he has 305 and I have 265 and a little difference in weight. Peanuts are good IMO.

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Originally Posted by BMRLVR View Post
You are making no sense!

It has been proven time after time that different cars respond differently to the exact same mods. I have never seen two exact dyno curves from two different cars yet. Yes they will be similar but the software is going to make different numbers on different cars.

All I was trying to do is eliminate yet another one of the variables by suggesting that both cars run the same wheel and tire setups.

If you think this test will prove anything without running the both tunes on both cars than go ahead and think it. I work on engines for a living and I can tell you that when running up two different (mechanically exact) engines on the dyno the numbers are never the same even thought technically they should be!
UBER's first M3 he owned was bone stock, my car was bone stock. We tested our cars side by side for the heck of it and they didnt leave eachothers side. We are not talking about dyno curves here, we are talking about seeing if there is a huge difference between the two maps after we do a stock run. It's really for fun and wanted people to see the difference between the two. Lets not over think this what should be a fun experiment. We are not sponsored by them or anything we are just wanting to have fun and involve others who are curious and not over thinking this to the extreme. Have fun with life, you only live once my friend.

Quote:
Originally Posted by M3takesNYC View Post
If two cars run side by side in their curred modified specs than simply flashing a tune on each will not change the way the mods run on a car. Of course nothing is absolutely exact but if both cars are catless, have dct and are roughly the same weight, use the same fuel etc. Run stock and are evenf. Then the tune will simply supplement the car and you will get a darn good idea of which tune is faster if one car outruns the other.
Running test pipes on a car not tuned for them vs a car tuned for them makes a difference when flashing. The cars stock are tuned from factory for a certain exhaust flow with the cats applied to the system. When you apply the test pipes to the stock map, you may feel a bit of a difference but the car is still running as if it has the cats, hence the emissions code pop up. Now when you tune the car and adjust for the missing cats its tells the car its new abilities and runs from that thus allowing more exhaust flow allowing more power. There are so many other variable applied to the tuning of running catless but I am not aware of them. I am not a tuning expert but I am aware of this for sure. Someone please enlighten me if I am wrong.

I do agree with your post I highlighted in red.

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If this is what you think than so be it! I for one will place no weight in the results if there are no proper controls or procedures put in place to validate the results.
Ok, cool!
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      02-21-2013, 07:04 AM   #62
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ok people just to say it again...we are in no way shape or foem pros, we just wanna see how 2 ///M3s with the exact mods (except for wheels/tire size) perform when stacked again another with just another tune...are the gonna run along side like my previous stock M3 did with his? or is on tuned car going to outshine the other drastically?...thats all we wanna know...is there something different with the BPM and ESS tune? who knows, but thats what we are looking for...and if one of us is a little ahead of the other then so be it both the tunes are along the same lines and worth their money...this is just for fun...We have the spring coming up with the Autobahn we are looking for some fun haha
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      02-21-2013, 07:37 AM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UBER ///M3 View Post
ok people just to say it again...we are in no way shape or foem pros, we just wanna see how 2 ///M3s with the exact mods (except for wheels/tire size) perform when stacked again another with just another tune...are the gonna run along side like my previous stock M3 did with his? or is on tuned car going to outshine the other drastically?...thats all we wanna know...is there something different with the BPM and ESS tune? who knows, but thats what we are looking for...and if one of us is a little ahead of the other then so be it both the tunes are along the same lines and worth their money...this is just for fun...We have the spring coming up with the Autobahn we are looking for some fun haha
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      02-21-2013, 08:34 AM   #64
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I will say that I am enjoying all the ideas and comments each person brings to the thread. This is good for debating and learning IMO.
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      02-21-2013, 08:56 AM   #65
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I will say that I am enjoying all the ideas and comments each person brings to the thread. This is good for debating and learning IMO.
+1 learning more each day
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      02-21-2013, 09:04 AM   #66
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Interesting idea, but BMRLVR is 100% correct in stating that the results won't mean anything. Even with an identical mod list and the same tune the cars would likely be a few hp apart... I doubt there is more variance in the power of those tunes than standard dyno error.
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