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      06-03-2013, 02:55 PM   #1
gongju
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"It's Incredibly Confusing To Put A $127,000 BMW M6 In Park"

Anyone see this article?

http://www.businessinsider.com/how-t...in-park-2013-6
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      06-03-2013, 03:09 PM   #2
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Ugh, it's not terribly intuitive, but takes minimal effort to figure out. Who did this guy get the keys from? Apparently some bozo. Who would hand over a new M6 without some rudimentary instruction on it's use?
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      06-03-2013, 04:50 PM   #3
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He's quite correct. what kind of stupid system is that? why didn't bmw use a normal gearshift lever with a Park position like a gtr, Evo X SST, or a porsche pdk gearbox for example?
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      06-03-2013, 05:53 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Majin Buu View Post
He's quite correct. what kind of stupid system is that? why didn't bmw use a normal gearshift lever with a Park position like a gtr, Evo X SST, or a porsche pdk gearbox for example?
It is really not that difficult ...
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      06-03-2013, 05:56 PM   #5
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It is really not that difficult ...
It isn't that difficult, at all. But it is different for what seems like no good reason other than to be different. I'm left wondering why.
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      06-03-2013, 06:02 PM   #6
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The M-DCT system is not stupid, that driver/reporter/reviewer is.

The same Owner's manual stored in the iDrive HDD says that the M-DCT goes to "P" when the car is off. Otherwise that will be the error prompt.

Really?
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      06-03-2013, 06:07 PM   #7
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The M-DCT system is not stupid, that driver/reporter/reviewer is.

The same Owner's manual stored in the iDrive HDD says that the M-DCT goes to "P" when the car is off. Otherwise that will be the error prompt.

Really?
And why oh why is that? For decades all a driver had to do to park a car was to move a lever to the P position. but somehow bmw thought there was a better way, and just for the sake of being different, came up with an overly complex and difficult to use gearshift system. Just read the other thread on this forum about the owner who cant get his car to reverse with the door open.
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      06-03-2013, 06:16 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Majin Buu View Post
And why oh why is that? For decades all a driver had to do to park a car was to move a lever to the P position. but somehow bmw thought there was a better way, and just for the sake of being different, came up with an overly complex and difficult to use gearshift system. Just read the other thread on this forum about the owner who cant get his car to reverse with the door open.
This is not an automatic transmission, this is a dual clutch transmission. And you cannot open the door and put the car in reverse with the M-DCT. That's the way BMW decided to implement it.

If that's stupid for you, ok. But then again you can always if all that confuses you. That's the purpose of it.
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      06-03-2013, 06:19 PM   #9
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What possible reason could you have for putting the transmission in "park"? Do we hear complaints about not being able to put a manual transmission in park? It's an automated manual transmission, not an automatic. Think of it in terms of a manual. If you want the car not to roll while you're stopped and the engine is running, apply the parking brake, just like a manual. That's what it's for. Writer of the article is an idiot.
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      06-03-2013, 06:21 PM   #10
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I think its much simpler to have the car automatically go into park rather than have to move a shifter or press a button. One less thing to worry about. Some people just shouldn't drive cars or need to learn to read the manual.
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      06-03-2013, 06:34 PM   #11
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Every DCT M3 is exactly the same, P only when the car is switched off. Idiot reviewer, clearly he's not driven any other DCT equipped cars.

Therefor whatever he has to say is totally inferior.
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      06-03-2013, 06:56 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prowess Symphony View Post
I think its much simpler to have the car automatically go into park rather than have to move a shifter or press a button. One less thing to worry about. Some people just shouldn't drive cars or need to learn to read the manual.
People have been putting cars into Park by moving a lever for decades without any problems. Why does BMW need to reinvent the wheel?

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What possible reason could you have for putting the transmission in "park"? Do we hear complaints about not being able to put a manual transmission in park? It's an automated manual transmission, not an automatic. Think of it in terms of a manual. If you want the car not to roll while you're stopped and the engine is running, apply the parking brake, just like a manual. That's what it's for. Writer of the article is an idiot.
It's an automatic. It shifts gears by itself, therefore it's an automatic gearbox. Whether it does that via synchros and cogs or planetary gears and torque converters is irrelevant. And there are plenty of times when I wish my manual had a Park function. A very good example would be at the track at the end of a session. Can't use parking brakes because the rotor is too hot and the shoes will melt and stick to it. And you can't shut off the engine because the car is still a bit hot and you want to keep the fluids circulating. So unless you use wheel chocks, you are stuck sitting in the car to make sure it doesn't roll off while it cools down.

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Originally Posted by Technic View Post
This is not an automatic transmission, this is a dual clutch transmission. And you cannot open the door and put the car in reverse with the M-DCT. That's the way BMW decided to implement it.

If that's stupid for you, ok. But then again you can always if all that confuses you. That's the purpose of it.
It's an automatic transmission. Any transmission that shifts by itself is automatic. And no, I have the manual gearbox, so I don't care either way or am confused by it. but plenty of cars with double clutch gearboxes have conventional shifters. The Lancer Evolution X, Nissan GTR, VW with the DSG, Porsche with the PDK, etc. BMW just wants to be unique by reinventing the wheel and coming up with a mediocre designed shifter.
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      06-03-2013, 07:02 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Majin Buu View Post
People have been putting cars into Park by moving a lever for decades without any problems. Why does BMW need to reinvent the wheel?
You could apply that logic to anything and say people used horses for thousands of years so why make a car? Or why make sat radio since people used fm radio for decades? Things evolve and change and get easier. People spent decades moving a level into park and now we don't have to. One less thing to remember or worry about so I can get on with my business. If you really need to get it into park with the car running you can put it into neutral and pull the ebrake I would assume.
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      06-03-2013, 07:05 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Majin Buu View Post
People have been putting cars into Park by moving a lever for decades without any problems. Why does BMW need to reinvent the wheel?

It's an automatic. It shifts gears by itself, therefore it's an automatic gearbox. Whether it does that via synchros and cogs or planetary gears and torque converters is irrelevant. And there are plenty of times when I wish my manual had a Park function. A very good example would be at the track at the end of a session. Can't use parking brakes because the rotor is too hot and the shoes will melt and stick to it. And you can't shut off the engine because the car is still a bit hot and you want to keep the fluids circulating. So unless you use wheel chocks, you are stuck sitting in the car to make sure it doesn't roll off while it cools down.

It's an automatic transmission. Any transmission that shifts by itself is automatic. And no, I have the manual gearbox, so I don't care either way or am confused by it. but plenty of cars with double clutch gearboxes have conventional shifters. The Lancer Evolution X, Nissan GTR, VW with the DSG, Porsche with the PDK, etc. BMW just wants to be unique by reinventing the wheel and coming up with a mediocre designed shifter.
You are missing the point. This discussion is not about how you think dct should be classified. It's about "park". I just wonder what anybody who complains about this issue, what do they do when they drive a manual. You can't put a manual in park, so what do you do? If this is somehow a flaw in the dct, then how do you justify it not being a flaw in a manual?
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      06-03-2013, 07:12 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prowess Symphony View Post
You could apply that logic to anything and say people used horses for thousands of years so why make a car? Or why make sat radio since people used fm radio for decades? Things evolve and change and get easier. People spent decades moving a level into park and now we don't have to. One less thing to remember or worry about so I can get on with my business. If you really need to get it into park with the car running you can put it into neutral and pull the ebrake I would assume.
Moving from horses to cars or from vinyl discs to sat. radio are examples of progress. A new superior design replaces and older inferior design. The shifter for bmw dct gearboxes is definitely new, but the question is really, is it superior? Is it an improvement over the conventional mechanical lever? It seems more confusing to people and less user friendly. It also gives you less control over the gearbox, and lets the car override your commands, much like the other member who can't reverse with his door open. One more thing is reliability. A more complex mechanism with all sorts of electronic sensors is more likely to fail and require expensive repairs than a traditional shifter.

And really, is your business so time-sensitive that a total of 2 seconds moving a shift lever to P will drastically affect it?

Also, if you ever been to a track, one of the big DO NOT DO's is using the parking brake. If the rotor is very hot the brake shoes can partially melt and stick to it. It would be great to leave the car in Park while it cools down and you can grab a drink or take a leak.

That shift mechanism is just BMW's answer to a question that no one asked and didn't exist.
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      06-03-2013, 07:19 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticBlue View Post
You are missing the point. This discussion is not about how you think dct should be classified. It's about "park". I just wonder what anybody who complains about this issue, what do they do when they drive a manual. You can't put a manual in park, so what do you do? If this is somehow a flaw in the dct, then how do you justify it not being a flaw in a manual?
You can put a manual in first gear or reverse to lock the car into position. Though yes, the lack of a Park function for a manual can be inconvenient. A Park mechanism for a manual gearbox would be excellent for track days for example.

Also, your analogy is incorrect. The DCT does have a Park function. The problem is that it is inaccessible compared to a conventional automatic gearbox. I'm not privy to the engineering specs of the DCT, so maybe the Park function is a lot like that of a manual, basically engaging the clutch and putting it in gear. if that's the case then i can see why you would need to turn off the engine first. But if the DCT Park mechanism is like that of traditional automatics, with a locking pin that slides onto the output shaft, then there is no good reason why you shouldn't be allowed to pop it into Park whenever you want, even with the engine running.
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      06-03-2013, 07:27 PM   #17
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i don't own a DCT (have driven one for about an hour or so), so obviously, I don't know off the top of my head nor have I , but I would think the driver should simply toggle it into "P", and THEN shut off the car. For you to get the error message, and then shut off the car, to put it in P is counter-intuitive.
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      06-03-2013, 07:28 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Majin Buu View Post
Moving from horses to cars or from vinyl discs to sat. radio are examples of progress. A new superior design replaces and older inferior design. The shifter for bmw dct gearboxes is definitely new, but the question is really, is it superior? Is it an improvement over the conventional mechanical lever? It seems more confusing to people and less user friendly. It also gives you less control over the gearbox, and lets the car override your commands, much like the other member who can't reverse with his door open. One more thing is reliability. A more complex mechanism with all sorts of electronic sensors is more likely to fail and require expensive repairs than a traditional shifter.

And really, is your business so time-sensitive that a total of 2 seconds moving a shift lever to P will drastically affect it?

Also, if you ever been to a track, one of the big DO NOT DO's is using the parking brake. If the rotor is very hot the brake shoes can partially melt and stick to it. It would be great to leave the car in Park while it cools down and you can grab a drink or take a leak.

That shift mechanism is just BMW's answer to a question that no one asked and didn't exist.
Regarding track, shut the engine off, it goes into park, don't put ebrake on. There is your solution. If you want the engine running for some reason, restart the engine and you are still in park. Do you have one? If not, why are you so keen on complaining about something you know nothing about. Going from 6mt to DCT 4 years ago, it never occurred to me there was anything odd about the whole "park" issue. Not until I saw idiots on forums, who expected it to act like an automatic transmission. I was coming from a manual mindset and it seemed normal to me then and still does. 4 years of everyday driving and track use and it works just like it is supposed to.
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      06-03-2013, 07:36 PM   #19
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Regarding track, shut the engine off, it goes into park, don't put ebrake on. There is your solution. If you want the engine running for some reason, restart the engine and you are still in park. Do you have one? If not, why are you so keen on complaining about something you know nothing about. Going from 6mt to DCT 4 years ago, it never occurred to me there was anything odd about the whole "park" issue. Not until I saw idiots on forums, who expected it to act like an automatic transmission. I was coming from a manual mindset and it seemed normal to me then and still does. 4 years of everyday driving and track use and it works just like it is supposed to.
As far as I know, if you restart the engine, the gearbox will disengage the parking mechanism automatically. It is impossible to have the gearbox in Park and the engine running.

And you really sound like a fanatical and rabid cheerleader for BMW with your incessant defense of them. I don't have to own a DCT to criticize how it works. And those people aren't "idiots". They have legitimate complaints about their cars. And yes it's a goddamn automatic, not a manual. And it has the exact same Park mechanism as an automatic gearbox. And there is not one single reason why you can't just pop it into Park without having to turn off the engine. The design is inferior, unnecessarily complicated, and mediocre. It's quite that simple.

And guess what, if I ever do decide to get a car with a double clutch transmission, it won't be a bmw, specifically because of that retarded shifter.
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      06-03-2013, 07:37 PM   #20
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I just test-drove the new M6 convertible, and also drove it at the M school, and my take is that it's stupid in its design.
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      06-03-2013, 07:39 PM   #21
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I just test-drove the new M6 convertible, and also drove it at the M school, and my take is that it's stupid in its design.
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      06-03-2013, 07:54 PM   #22
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Porches PDK has a Park on the shifter. I wonder why BMW hasn't implemented one yet. Maybe they want to keep it feeling like a manual car?
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