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      08-25-2007, 07:56 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by RandyB View Post
It's interesting that they are getting that much hp from DFI. The Cayman S will get DFI along with a refresh for MY09. Things would get pretty interesting in that car with 325-330 hp and less than 3,000 lbs.

I don't believe that they are relying solely on DI for the hp bump. You are right, it would make for a very nice car.
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      08-25-2007, 07:57 PM   #46
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Of course, I am not fixated on a $55,000 dollar number. If you want clarification, consider what i said in one of my last posts.
So, you are saying if the M3 is priced too high, it might depreciate just as much, or nearly as much, as a 911, and for that reason, you would buy a 911. In other words, if the total cost of ownership of the M3 is close to the 911's for, say 2 years, than there is no point in buying a M3--unless it has performance you prefer.

I understand that. That's a solid way to look at things. However, isn't it clear that the cost of ownership of the 911 will be much higher than the M3's, even if the M3 is priced at $65k? Isn't that pretty much a fact? (If you say no, then I can see why we are disagreeing.)

If it is, then it really boils down to which car you like the most (because of the potential hp increase in the 911 or whatever else), and the base price of the M3 being $55k or $65k has nothing to do with any of this, which is my point.
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      08-25-2007, 08:12 PM   #47
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So, you are saying if the M3 is priced too high, it might depreciate just as much, or nearly as much, as a 911, and for that reason, you would buy a 911. In other words, if the total cost of ownership of the M3 is close to the 911's for, say 2 years, than there is no point in buying a M3--unless it has performance you prefer.

I understand that. That's a solid way to look at things. However, isn't it clear that the cost of ownership of the 911 will be much higher than the M3's, even if the M3 is priced at $65k? Isn't that pretty much a fact? (If you say no, then I can see why we are disagreeing.)

If it is, then it really boils down to which car you like the most (because of the potential hp increase in the 911 or whatever else), and the base price of the M3 being $55k or $65k has nothing to do with any of this, which is my point.
I do believe that the cost of ownership for the 911 will be more regardless of residuals.

My choice will not be soley based on which car I like the most. If the P car is not worth the extra initial cost to me, then I may get a car that isn't my first choice, but is a much cheaper close second. That may not work for you, but it does for me. If my favorite car was my first pick, it would be my previous turbo. I just have a hard time justifying all that extra money for the gain. So, the $55k MSRP could be one big factor in helping me choose the M3.
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      08-25-2007, 08:30 PM   #48
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I do believe that the cost of ownership for the 911 will be more regardless of residuals.

My choice will not be soley based on which car I like the most. If the P car is not worth the extra initial cost to me, then I may get a car that isn't my first choice, but is a much cheaper close second. That may not work for you, but it does for me. If my favorite car was my first pick, it would be my previous turbo. I just have a hard time justifying all that extra money for the gain. So, the $55k MSRP could be one big factor in helping me choose the M3.
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I don't have a problem with paying the extra cash. It's how that cash is retained in the form of residuals and the miles I can drive. If, I knew that the turbo would hold a better value and you could actually drive the car 8-9k annually without losing your shirt, I'd go there in a minute.
Now, I am confused about your responses because I thought you earlier said the initial cost was not the issue, but residuals were.

Anyway, there is one way I can understand what you've said so far. That is if the consideration is really about the difference in the cost of short term ownership of the two cars vs. satisfaction? If so, I think I can see what you are saying, and agree that is a somewhat subjective decision.
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      08-25-2007, 08:41 PM   #49
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Now, I am confused about your responses because I thought you earlier said the initial cost was not the issue, but residuals were.

Anyway, there is one way I can understand what you've said so far. That is if the consideration is really about the difference in the cost of short term ownership of the two cars vs. satisfaction? If so, I think I can see what you are saying, and agree that is a somewhat subjective decision.

My initial cost is not an issue if I feel I am getting what I really desire. That doesn't mean that I don't like a bargain-I feel that a M3 @$55k would be a bargain.

Yes, my concern is the cost of ownership relative to my satisfaction level.
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      08-25-2007, 08:53 PM   #50
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My initial cost is not an issue if I feel I am getting what I really desire. That doesn't mean that I don't like a bargain-I feel that a M3 @$55k would be a bargain.
These two statements still don't make sense to me in conjunction.

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Yes, my concern is the cost of ownership relative to my satisfaction level.
This makes sense to me--provided one can meet the initial cost without a problem--and sets your post apart from the rest of the posts which make me think the authors are posers of some sort.
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      08-26-2007, 06:49 AM   #51
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I don't believe that they are relying solely on DI for the hp bump. You are right, it would make for a very nice car.
It's definitely not a displacement bump. I'm sure there are other things that can be optimised further with the implementation of DFI. Porsche has said it is good enough for up to 13% increases I believe.
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      08-26-2007, 07:05 AM   #52
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It's definitely not a displacement bump. I'm sure there are other things that can be optimised further with the implementation of DFI. Porsche has said it is good enough for up to 13% increases I believe.

I realize that it is definately not a displacement bump. I did not realize that DI could yield that much of a increase. I assumed PAG would make X51 standard. Impressive numbers for DI>
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      08-26-2007, 07:14 AM   #53
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These two statements still don't make sense to me in conjunction.



This makes sense to me--provided one can meet the initial cost without a problem--and sets your post apart from the rest of the posts which make me think the authors are posers of some sort.
That's unfortunate that you don't -won't- undertsand these two statements.

I thought we were making ground but thats is obviously not the case.

Why is it hard for you to understand that just beause I can afford the cost of admission for another turbo, means that I can't appreciate a great value.

Your aforementioned statement reads how my last post sets it apart from my previous posts. The essence of my posts have been the same. You just choose to disect them and compare what's to your liking.

You repeatedly imply that I am a poser, which I find offensive. When you first made the implication, I responded. There is really no need to keep insisting that I am. If you want to believe it, so be it.

Your posts have become increasingly argumentative and rude. I am sorry but this thread has become somewhat boring. Feel what you like, understand what you like and accuse me of whatever you like. Your feelings won't change my history of ownership, nor will it change what and why I buy it.

I do not mean this to be offensive, but it appears to me that you are one of those blind brand loyalists. You tout your selective process on buying whatever sports car you find will meets your expctations, but get hostile when someone questions the almighty M3.

Lastly, would pictures of my Porsche's make you less cynical!? It seems childish to have to resort to that, but will that help you? Or...will you accuse me of plagiarism?

Last edited by devo; 08-26-2007 at 08:26 AM.
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      08-26-2007, 08:36 AM   #54
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You repeatedly imply that I am a poser, which I find offensive. When you first made the implication, I responded. There is really no need to keep insisting that I am. If you want to believe it, so be it.
Devo, I wrote "and SETS YOUR POST APART from the rest of the posts which make me think the authors are posers of some sort."

So, I am no longer suggesting that since I can understand at least one part of your reasoning. It doesn't really matter what I think anyway. My initial statement in that regard was simply an expression of frustration since most of these posts seem contradictory, but yours made me consider something I haven't considered before. We really don't have anything to prove to each other although we are acting like we do. I don't mean to be offensive either.

That said, I still do think that there are many people on this board who talk about the M3 or the 911 as if they can afford or have driven one, but can't or haven't. Those people are not adding anything to the discussion because they are pretending. If anything, they are taking away from the discussion. That is the basis for my initial reaction. (I don't mean to say that all members should be able to afford or have driven one. It's just that they should be honest about their experiences and intentions, that's all.)

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I do not mean this to be offensive, but it appears to me that you are one of those blind brand loyalists. You tout your selective process on buying whatever sports car you find will meets your expctations, but get hostile when someone questions the almighty M3.
I thought I addressed this earlier. I like BMWs, and that's about it. I care about my satisfaction more than anything else when making a decision about a new car. If you've read my posts, you can see that I am rather critical of BMWs when there is reason to be so. I've railed on interior and exterior styling on several threads. That ugly dash might very well turn out to be "the" reason why I might not go after the M3--especially if it comes standard with that hump.

Last edited by lucid; 08-26-2007 at 09:04 AM.
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      08-26-2007, 08:49 AM   #55
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Devo, I wrote "and SETS YOUR POST APART from the rest of the posts which make me think the authors are posers of some sort."

So, I am no longer suggesting that since I can understand at least one part of your reasoning. It doesn't really matter what I think anyway. My initial statement in that regard was simply an expression of frustration since most of these posts seem contradictory, but yours made me consider something I haven't considered before. We really don't have anything to prove to each other although we are acting like we do. I don't mean to be offensive either.

That said, I still do think that there are many people on this board who talk about the M3 or the 911 as if they can afford or have driven neither, but act like they can and have.



I thought I addressed this earlier. I like BMWs, and that's about it. I care about my satisfaction more than anything else when making a decision about a new car. If you've read my posts, you can see that I am rather critical of BMWs when there is reason to be so. I've railed on interior and exterior styling on several threads. That ugly dash might very well turn out to be "the" reason why I might not go after the M3--especially if it comes standard with that hump.
I must have misinterpreted part of your post. Maybe there are posers here. I try to take people on face value; but you have a point.

Anyway, we have a lot of choices in front of us. Good luck with your process.
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      08-26-2007, 08:58 AM   #56
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I must have misinterpreted part of your post. Maybe there are posers here. I try to take people on face value; but you have a point.

Anyway, we have a lot of choices in front of us. Good luck with your process.
It's okay. It is not easy to get into this kind of discussion over the internet, which has its pros and cons as can be seen in this exchange, but there is nowhere else one can do this with so many people. Good luck with your process as well.
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      08-26-2007, 09:08 AM   #57
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Not really. Simply pointing out the nonsense behind these posts which state the decision between a new 911 and a M3 hinges on some kind of financial rationale. One is significantly more expensive than the other however you look at it. Regardless of a 55k or 65k M3 base price. Period. So if you can afford the 911, your decision to buy a M3, if that's the car you want, cannot be based on finances. You don't seem to be able to get that, and that's fine. I don't care about how you spend the money you do or do not have.

In the context of the broader discussion on the anticipated M3 US pricing on this forum, the reasoning I have outlined, which has also been outlined by others, simply point out that the 911 will never become an alternative to the M3 from a financial perspective--as long as BMW doesn't price it at $75k.



If the BMW has enough performance, then perhaps he will buy that over the P-car, because to him it offers a more refined ride ( ), or possibly more luxury and less fatigue..etc

You basing YOUR decision on performance alone, VS money. Perhaps that is not his criteria...?

Owning and driving a Porsche are great memories, I'm sure. But, there is a certain stigma that goes with them... they are uncomfortable after extended use and the noise level..etc.

So perhaps what he is saying is that after driving the new M3 himself, it may "offer" the necessary HP and handling he requires in a car and the fact it's $15k cheaper doesn't matter, because now he can use that car to go golfing in....






-Garrett
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      08-26-2007, 09:18 AM   #58
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If the BMW has enough performance, then perhaps he will buy that over the P-car because it does offer more luxury and less fatigue..etc

You basing YOUR decision on performance alone, VS money. Perhaps that is not his criteria...?

Read the exchange carefully. The discussion was around why someone who can afford a 911 be so sensitive to the M3 base price coming at 55k or 65k if that's the car he/she wants for whatever reason--not about performance vs price--and Devo explained his rationale, which I understood for the most part.
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      08-26-2007, 09:26 AM   #59
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Read the exchange carefully. The discussion was around why someone who can afford a 911 be so sensitive to the M3 base price coming at 55k or 65k if that's the car he/she wants for whatever reason--not about performance vs price--and Devo explained his rationale, which I understood for the most part.
Would you pay $5 for a pensil, simply because you can afford to do so..?

Perhaps he wants both car, but wants to make a logical descision based on several dynamics and not just performance. But, notwithstanding, performance must meet a certain mark to be considered.

Why knows.

I just hope you enjoy your purchases.
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      08-26-2007, 09:32 AM   #60
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Would you pay $5 for a pensil, simply because you can afford to do so..?
If I'm out there to buy a pencil, and if that's the pencil I want and can afford, I would. But it turns out affordibility is not the issue, but the short term cost of ownership vs. satisfaction is. Anyway, no point going through the same discussion.

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I just hope you enjoy your purchases.
You, too!
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      08-26-2007, 12:48 PM   #61
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the whole argument seems inane. just because someone can afford a p-car doesn't mean he/she shouldn't be price sensitive. in fact people with high net worth are some of the most price sensitive people i know (that's how they accumulated that net worth). i'm in the market for a 70k car but would i love to get something the m3 for 55k? of course. it's all a matter of degrees, not black and white. if i can get an m3 for 55k, even if it is not exactly what i want, i can use the remaining 15k to upgrade it to meet my requirements better for example.
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      08-26-2007, 01:00 PM   #62
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i'm in the market for a 70k car but would i love to get something the m3 for 55k?
It's a matter of what you want and what your budget is. If your budget is 70k, and if you truly want the M3, which costs less than that, why would you care that it costs 55k or 60k since that is the car that you want--unless as in Devo's case where you buy and sell cars every other year.

The rather wealthy people I know do care about how they spend their money, but once they set a budget for something and they know what they want within that price range, they just buy it. If you are still going back and forth, that means you're not sure about your budget yet, or overextending yourself.
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      08-26-2007, 01:13 PM   #63
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It's a matter of what you want and what your budget is. If your budget is 70k, and if you truly want the M3, which costs less than that, why would you care that it costs 55k or 60k since that is the car that you want--unless as in Devo's case where you buy and sell cars every other year.

The rather wealthy people I know do care about how they spend their money, but once they set a budget for something and they know what they want within that price range, they just buy it. If you are still going back and forth, that means you're not sure about your budget yet, or overextending yourself.
no, your completely off-base and i'm puzzled as to why grasp of a simple concept is beyond you. i'm not unsure about the budget, just unsure of what the new m3 will deliver for said budget. i want a car that is a reliable daily driver than i can drive at the track every other weekend. which means it needs to have responsive steering, great handling, brakes that are trackworthy, probably adjustable suspension. i don't know if you've noticed but the m3 has many worthy competitors lately and one of the most competitive features that will sway me is price. if the m3 comes in priced too high, why would i blindly buy it? how could i or you "truly want the m3" when we haven't even driven it nor have a price for it?
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      08-26-2007, 01:19 PM   #64
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no, your completely off-base and i'm puzzled as to why grasp of a simple concept is beyond you. i'm not unsure about the budget, just unsure of what the new m3 will deliver for said budget. i want a car that is a reliable daily driver than i can drive at the track every other weekend. which means it needs to have responsive steering, great handling, brakes that are trackworthy, probably adjustable suspension. i don't know if you've noticed but the m3 has many worthy competitors lately and one of the most competitive features that will sway me is price. if the m3 comes in priced too high, why would i blindly buy it? how could i or you "truly want the m3" when we haven't even driven it nor have a price for it?
You are moving this off-topic, and getting mired in irrelevant issues. Everthing that you say about what the M3 will or will not deliver is in the eyes of the beholder. That's different for every consumer, and not relevant to this discussion.

I am talking about a scenario where you have a, say 80k budget, you've looked at the alternatives below that number, and decided--for whatever reason--that M3 is the car you want. At that point, it is irrelevant if the M3 is priced at 55k or 65k as long as it is below 80k.

In the current situation, where you don't have enough information to decide if M3 is the car you want, you'll simply wait to get that information. But as I said above, you shouldn't be worried about the base price of the M3 possibly being 65k in case the M3 does indeed turn out to be the car you want for the simple reason I outlined above.
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      08-26-2007, 05:04 PM   #65
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From what I heard it will be the introduction of DFI only, notice the claimed mileage improvement. Sure wish the M division would have taken a page from the 335 and been ahead of the game with DFI in the M3. If wishes were fishes....
Is it not possible for BMW M to develop a DFI solution during the E92 production run and begin implementing it or do we have to wait until the next model altogether?
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      08-26-2007, 05:08 PM   #66
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I already mentioned before, I regret the purchase. It is not worth the money. My car cost 100,000USD. I seriously dislike the RS4, so the new M3 which is better but JUST, will probably be vastly inferior purchase to the Porsche.
Strange....you say here that you purchased the car. On M3forum, you said it was a company car. This is twice now. Which is it?

Something fishy about this guy.
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