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      08-25-2007, 02:43 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by RussianM3_dude View Post
I meant for the regular models.
I was pointing out that PAG does have it in them to produce the benchmark power and beyond. The 911S is a regular model, when optioned with the X51 will produce 381 hp. It may be a ridiculously expensive option, but it's there if you want it. But, I do understand your post.
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      08-25-2007, 02:46 PM   #24
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Good question.

I am strongly considering another turbo or turbo cab, if the 400 hp bump never happens. I am lucky to be able to afford it. I just have to have all of the data available before I move forward.

I do realize why you would think like you do regarding my decisions. They may be unusual, but the reasoning works for me. I feel that the M3 is a great driver's car. One of the major reasons why I decided to consider returning to the M3 was because of it's great price relative to it's performance; with excellent residuals. In my opinion, if the M comes in, well optioned @ $70, it's residuals will be on par with the M5, which are not very good. With the higher price tag comes less user miles; IMO. It does seem that when cars get in that price range they become more mileage sensitive relative to resale. If I am going to suffer from a poor resale and keeping the miles low, I'll do it with another Porsche. Amongst the many great things about the E46, was the fact that you could actually put miles on the car without much concern. I don't think that will be the case with the E92 M and it's certainly not the case with a 911. I have owned three different 997's and know first hand that you have to be careful about the miles.

I do not want to offend anyone here. I do love what the M brings to the table, but price, some real roadtests and a chance to actually touch one, may make my choice much easier.

I am fortunate that I can consider paying cash for any of these cars. But, I have to have all the facts before I jump in again. If, my reasoning doesn't make sense to you, that's ok, it's doesn't have to. I will make the right choice for me when the time comes. These are all great cars. It's great to be a car guy.

Sorry, if I rambled.
Great response. Everybody wants value for their money. I slightly disagree with you about mileage though. I have a friend who is very wealthy and he gets a new GT3 every 9-months to 2 yrs. He's sold them with 1500 miles up to 15000 mi. He still gets the stick everytime he trades in or sells. He used to "drive it on saturday and wash it onsunday" trade in time revealed that it might have saved him a little but not as much as he wanted. These days he just uses it as a daily driver.

Love you P-Car guys!

I'd get one too if I could afford the one I want.

maybe someday
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      08-25-2007, 02:52 PM   #25
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So your concern is the hit you would take on residuals. Hmmm... Even if the base M3 is priced at $55+, you would take a much bigger hit on 911 residuals, mainly because of what you are pointing out regarding miles and 911s, and the higher initial price of the 911 (it will definetely be higher than the M3). And then there is the return on investment you would be losing on the extra $15-$20k you would be paying for the 911. So, whatever happens with the M3 base price, the 911 will cost you significantly more. Again, I don't get it. But it doesn't matter that I do or not. We have been seeing several posts on this topic recently, and I was just curious...

I don't have a problem with paying the extra cash. It's how that cash is retained in the form of residuals and the miles I can drive. If, I knew that the turbo would hold a better value and you could actually drive the car 8-9k annually without losing your shirt, I'd go there in a minute.

Obviously, the initial cost relative to the residual matters, but I believe that these cars will likely depreciate at a similar rate-unlike the E46, each with low mileage usage. I would think that the M will be favored slightly, but probably not enough to change my mind. We should know a lot more in a few months.

Who knows, one drive in the new M and maybe I'll reconsider.
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      08-25-2007, 02:56 PM   #26
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Great response. Everybody wants value for their money. I slightly disagree with you about mileage though. I have a friend who is very wealthy and he gets a new GT3 every 9-months to 2 yrs. He's sold them with 1500 miles up to 15000 mi. He still gets the stick everytime he trades in or sells. He used to "drive it on saturday and wash it onsunday" trade in time revealed that it might have saved him a little but not as much as he wanted. These days he just uses it as a daily driver.

Love you P-Car guys!

I'd get one too if I could afford the one I want.

maybe someday
That's the way to own a sports car, just drive it and love it, whatever the brand. I should listen.
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      08-25-2007, 03:03 PM   #27
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I don't have a problem with paying the extra cash. It's how that cash is retained in the form of residuals and the miles I can drive. If, I knew that the turbo would hold a better value and you could actually drive the car 8-9k annually without losing your shirt, I'd go there in a minute.

Obviously, the initial cost relative to the residual matters, but I believe that these cars will likely depreciate at a similar rate-unlike the E46, each with low mileage usage. I would think that the M will be favored slightly, but probably not enough to change my mind. We should know a lot more in a few months.

Who knows, one drive in the new M and maybe I'll reconsider.
Well, I'm saying the same thing. At the end of, say 2 years, and after selling the car, what is the difference in the net overall cost or net cost/mile, including depreciation, loss opportunity on return on investment, and maintanence. There is absolutely no way the 911 is going to come on top. They won't even be close by any measure. If I got your reasoning right, and if you think otherwise, I'd say you are either fooling us or yourself.
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      08-25-2007, 03:14 PM   #28
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Well, I'm saying the same thing. At the end of, say 2 years, and after selling the car, what is the difference in the net overall cost or net cost/mile, including depreciation, loss opportunity on return on investment, and maintanence. There is absolutely no way the 911 is going to come on top. They won't even be close by any measure. If I got your reasoning right, and if you think otherwise, I'd say you are either fooling us or yourself.
I am not concerned with opportunity loss whatsoever. It's just another excuse not to buy what you want. I never said that the 911 would come out on top. Actually, I said that the M would likely be favored.

I fund it rather amusing that you wish to tell me that I am fooling myself or others. Why do I care about fooling anyone. Who cares what car you, I or anyone likes. It's what is important to you that matters.

I, thought, you of all members on this forum had a little more reasoning than some others. You have proven me wrong. If you think I am in denial or attemtping to fool someone, so be it. (Curious, who and what is it I am attemtping to fool?) This stuff doesn't matter. We are talking about our passion for cars.
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      08-25-2007, 03:22 PM   #29
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I am not concerned with opportunity loss whatsoever. It's just another excuse not to buy what you want. I never said that the 911 would come out on top. Actually, I said that the M would likely be favored.

I fund it rather amusing that you wish to tell me that I am fooling myself or others. Why do I care about fooling anyone. Who cares what car you, I or anyone likes. It's what is important to you that matters.

I, thought, you of all members on this forum had a little more reasoning than some others. You have proven me wrong. If you think I am in denial or attemtping to fool someone, so be it. (Curious, who and what is it I am attemtping to fool?) This stuff doesn't matter. We are talking about our passion for cars.
It's just that I am a bit tired of people making financial arguments for getting the 911 in case the M3 is priced too high, which is what you have been doing. That doesn't make any sense. If someone is blowing that horn, they are just yakking, and I doubt that they are who they claim they are. Fooling in reference to: Do you even own that turbo? Have you ever even driven a 911? and so on...

On the other hand, you are absolutely right about buying what you want. If one can afford it, one should buy the 911 if that's the car he/she enjoys the most. Period. What's all this financial reasoning that doesn't make any sense about? There is no economic rationale whatsoever for buying a new 911 over a M3.
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      08-25-2007, 03:25 PM   #30
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It's just that I am a bit tired of people making financial arguments for getting the 911 in case the M3 is priced too high, which is what you have been doing. That doesn't make any sense. If someone is blowing that horn, they are just yakking, and I doubt that they are who they claim they are.

On the other hand, you are absolutely right about buying what you want. If one can afford it, one should buy the 911 if he/she wants. Period. What's all this financial reasoning that doesn't make any sense about?
You have your reasons and I have mine. If you believe that I am yakking, that's ok too.

I want a Ferrari. So, with that reasoning, I should go buy it? Assuming, I'm not yakking, of course.
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      08-25-2007, 03:28 PM   #31
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It's just that I am a bit tired of people making financial arguments for getting the 911 in case the M3 is priced too high, which is what you have been doing. That doesn't make any sense. If someone is blowing that horn, they are just yakking, and I doubt that they are who they claim they are.

On the other hand, you are absolutely right about buying what you want. If one can afford it, one should buy the 911 if he/she wants. Period. What's all this financial reasoning that doesn't make any sense about? There is no economic rationale whatsoever for buying a new 911 over a M3.
You are so adamant in your beliefs that your reasoning is making less sense. There is most definately economic rational in this purchase, and in most. At a certain price point the M becomes less desireable to me; simple as that. Like I've said, I want to drive one first.

You might find it interesting that several members (997 owners) of the Rennteam forum (porsche/ferrari, in case you didn't know) are waiting for the M to be released. Some of them, like me, want to have all the facts first before making their next purchase.
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      08-25-2007, 03:31 PM   #32
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You have your reasons and I have mine. If you believe that I am yakking, that's ok too.

I want a Ferrari. So, with that reasoning, I should go buy it? Assuming, I'm not yakking, of course.
I edited my post while you are responding, so you might have missed this:

"Fooling in reference to: Do you even own that turbo? Have you ever even driven a 911? and so on..."

I'd say, if you can afford it, you should buy the Ferrari. Or rather, if you can afford it, your decision to buy the Ferrari should not be based on economics because if it is, that means you can't really afford it.
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      08-25-2007, 03:42 PM   #33
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It's just that I am a bit tired of people making financial arguments for getting the 911 in case the M3 is priced too high, which is what you have been doing. That doesn't make any sense. If someone is blowing that horn, they are just yakking, and I doubt that they are who they claim they are. Fooling in reference to: Do you even own that turbo? Have you ever even driven a 911? and so on...

On the other hand, you are absolutely right about buying what you want. If one can afford it, one should buy the 911 if that's the car he/she enjoys the most. Period. What's all this financial reasoning that doesn't make any sense about? There is no economic rationale whatsoever for buying a new 911 over a M3.
2007 997 turbo, artic silver
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It doesn't matter if you believe this or not. You are just looking for an argument.
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      08-25-2007, 03:46 PM   #34
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I edited my post while you are responding, so you might have missed this:

"Fooling in reference to: Do you even own that turbo? Have you ever even driven a 911? and so on..."

I'd say, if you can afford it, you should buy the Ferrari. Or rather, if you can afford it, your decision to buy the Ferrari should not be based on economics because if it is, that means you can't really afford it.
Because, I care how I spend my fun money means I can't afford it. That's a choice I make. It's really no concern of yours.
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      08-25-2007, 04:43 PM   #35
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You are just looking for an argument.
Not really. Simply pointing out the nonsense behind these posts which state the decision between a new 911 and a M3 hinges on some kind of financial rationale. One is significantly more expensive than the other however you look at it. Regardless of a 55k or 65k M3 base price. Period. So if you can afford the 911, your decision to buy a M3, if that's the car you want, cannot be based on finances. You don't seem to be able to get that, and that's fine. I don't care about how you spend the money you do or do not have.

In the context of the broader discussion on the anticipated M3 US pricing on this forum, the reasoning I have outlined, which has also been outlined by others, simply point out that the 911 will never become an alternative to the M3 from a financial perspective--as long as BMW doesn't price it at $75k.

Last edited by lucid; 08-25-2007 at 05:17 PM.
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      08-25-2007, 04:48 PM   #36
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Because, I care how I spend my fun money means I can't afford it. That's a choice I make. It's really no concern of yours.
You really aren't make sense again. You asked me a question:

"I want a Ferrari. So, with that reasoning, I should go buy it?"

And I simply answered that. If you don't want an answer, don't ask the question.
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      08-25-2007, 06:59 PM   #37
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You really aren't make sense again. You asked me a question:

"I want a Ferrari. So, with that reasoning, I should go buy it?"

And I simply answered that. If you don't want an answer, don't ask the question.
Oh Lucid, envy doesn't become you.
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      08-25-2007, 07:02 PM   #38
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Oh Lucid, envy doesn't become you.
Envy? Envy what? I have the means to buy a M3, a 911, or a Turbo--not that it would have made a difference if I didn't. I would have owned a P car if I wanted one. What does that have to do with this discussion? You realize you're not making sense, and try to make things personal instead? Nice.
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      08-25-2007, 07:06 PM   #39
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Not really. Simply pointing out the nonsense behind these posts which state the decision between a new 911 and a M3 hinges on some kind of financial rationale. One is significantly more expensive than the other however you look at it. Regardless of a 55k or 65k M3 base price. Period. So if you can afford the 911, your decision to buy a M3, if that's the car you want, cannot be based on finances. You don't seem to be able to get that, and that's fine. I don't care about how you spend the money you do or do not have.

In the context of the broader discussion on the anticipated M3 US pricing on this forum, the reasoning I have outlined, which has also been outlined by others, simply point out that the 911 will never become an alternative to the M3 from a financial perspective--as long as BMW doesn't price it at $75k.
Yeah really. Because my rationale doesn't makes sense to YOU, means that it doesn't make sense.

My decsion is not based soley on the financial dicison. Let me give you an example; if the 911S gets the anticipated 400 HP bump and the M3 comes in at what I consider high, then I will clearly go with the Porsche. Other than that, I will wait and see. My decision process can't be summarized, or catagorized for that matter, into some nice neat box for you to understand.

So, yes, again, you are clearly looking for an arguement. I haven't bashed your almightly fanatasy BMW in the least. I simply questioned it's price.

I wonder who it is that is posing.
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      08-25-2007, 07:13 PM   #40
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Yeah really. Because my rationale doesn't makes sense to YOU, means that it doensn't make sense.

My decsion is not based soley on the financial dicison. Let me give you an example; if the 911S gets the anticipated 400 HP bump and the M3 comes in at what I consider high, then I will clearly go with the Porsche. Other than that, I will wait and see. My decision process can't be summarized, or catagorized for that matter, into some nice neat box for you to understand.

So, yes, agn, you are clearly looking for an arguement. I haven't bashed your almightly fanatasy BMW in the least. I simply questioned it's price.

I wonder who it is that is posing.
I am only speaking to the financial aspects of what has been discussed on this forum regarding the 911 and the M3. Those, you can value objectively, thanks to algebra. The rest is all subjective. Repeat: one who can afford a 911 can afford a M3. As simple as that. You are refuting that?

I have no fantasy centered around the M3. I simply want to buy a sports coupe I will truly enjoy within the next 12 months. I am waiting for the GTR, ISF, and the revised 911--not just for the M3. I've said that many times on this forum.
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      08-25-2007, 07:14 PM   #41
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It's interesting that they are getting that much hp from DFI. The Cayman S will get DFI along with a refresh for MY09. Things would get pretty interesting in that car with 325-330 hp and less than 3,000 lbs.
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      08-25-2007, 07:20 PM   #42
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I am only speak to the financial aspects of what has been discussed on this forum regarding the 911 and the M3. Those, you can value objectively, thanks to algebra. The rest is all subjective. Repeat: one who can afford a 911 can afford a M3. As simple as that. You are refuting that?

I have no fantasy centered around the M3. I simply want to buy a sports coupe I will truly enjoy within the next 12 months. I am waiting for the GTR, ISF, and the revised 911--not just for the M3. I've said that many times on this forum.

Then what is it that you disgree with me about, because I am really confused about your responses.

I have never said that one who can afford a 911 can't afford a M3. What on earth are you talking about.

Thanks so much for the education on the differences between an objective and subjective opinion; oh... lest I forget algebra, so I now can value it objectively. Your posts are full of such anger, just relax Lucid.
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      08-25-2007, 07:27 PM   #43
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For me, if PAG keeps the sticker at current levels and ups the ante to 395-400 HP, I'll be clearly going that route, unless BMW pulls off a miracle and introduces the M3 @ $55,000. I can believe in the tooth fairy, right?
Devo, this is your initial post that got this discussion started. It is similar to many other posts that have been written by others recently. The way I read this is:

1. I can afford a 911.
2. I would buy a M3 if it is not priced higher than $55k.

And, what makes me think most of these posters are posers in one way or another is the inherent contradiction in those two statements. Why would someone who can clearly budget $80k for a car be so concerned about the base price of a much cheaper car if the cheaper car turns out to be what he/she "wants"?

Tell me if I am misinterpreting that sentence.
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      08-25-2007, 07:42 PM   #44
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Devo, this is your initial post that got this discussion started. It is similar to many other posts that have been written by others recently. The way I read this is:

1. I can afford a 911.
2. I would buy a M3 if it is not priced higher than $55k.

And, what makes me think most of these posters are posers in one way or another is the inherent contradiction in those two statements. Why would someone who can clearly budget $80k for a car be so concerned about the base price of a much cheaper car if the cheaper car turns out to be what he/she "wants"? (and we went through the whole residual dicussion, where the 911 clearly costs more to own however you look at it).

Tell me if I am misinterpreting that sentence.
You are misinterpreting my statements. You are taking that post too literally. It was a general statement, partly made in jest as to the price of the M3. I thought I clarified that several times. Of course, I am not fixated on a $55,000 dollar number. If you want clarification, consider what i said in one of my last posts.

There are numerous factors which will help me choose. One example is if P gives the 911 400 ponies. Another is what the actual cost of the M is. Yet another is how I felt about the M after a test drive and a visual. My choice will not be limited to these considerations, but these are a few that will help.

Or, you can view it like this, if the 911S were to remain 355 and the M comes in around $55-60; I'll likely go M. Does that help?

We have discussed the residuals, however, we haven't agreed on that topic. That's fine. I'll value another opinion, but that doesn't mean I have to agree with it. I am clearly OK going with a much more expensive car if I feel it is worth it. I will be able to form that opinion with upcoming info on both of these cars.
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