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      04-09-2017, 12:17 AM   #1
irex511
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Longish Lasting Tires for HPDE-only Use?

Looking for some opinions on tire with a unique twist - I plan to use them just for HPDE's (bolt on at the track), but since it's an HPDE and not a competition, I care more about tire life than maximum stick.

I ran Bridgestone Potenza Re-71r's (which I do use to compete on for autocross), and managed to kill the fronts in just one day at TWS last month (reasonable tread left but the edge of the tread started to chunk out even at higher pressures). I recognize that this probably means two things:

a) I'm overcooking my corner entry speeds (but hey, I'm still learning here)

b) Camber could probably solve many of my problems (the problem being that to stay legal for FS in SCCA, camber plates aren't an option).

So, keeping in mind they'll go on an 18" square setup, and given that they're for track only, have you had any good experience with a track tire that'll last me a bit longer? Any recommendations or wild opinions are greatly appreciated. (Hoosier R7, Maxxis RC-1, BFG R1, BFG Rival S 1.5, Falken 615K, RS3, RS4, R1R, Z2, VR-1, R888(r?), NT-01, RA-1, other options???).

Also, here's the "carnage" on my fronts from TWS...


P.S. Debated whether or not this belonged in wheels and tires, but figured my track rat friends here would know better
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      04-09-2017, 12:27 AM   #2
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you're right, some camber plates would do you good, but you said you can't add camber plates. (what if you added camber plates, but the camber was withing oem spec for your competitions?)

you could always rotate your tires halfway through your day, then flip the tires on the wheels. if the above picture is from one day, i suppose you could get two days from them... sort of depends on track surface and how much you are scrubbing them. are you getting a ton of understeer and just grating the tire on the pavement?
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      04-09-2017, 12:39 AM   #3
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Guess I could chat with the guys in class, but technically it would be illegal and I could get contested (what a pain, eh?). I have pulled the alignment pins and was able to get -1.5ish, but clearly that's not enough.

I didn't feel like it was monumental amounts of understeer (like I said, I'm newish to track stuff and very new to this car, so definitely still learning), but there was definitely some to compensate for on corner entry. I'll definitely try to ease up on my corner entry speeds a bit at the next event, but still am interested in trying something different to see if I'd have better luck.
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      04-09-2017, 12:44 AM   #4
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i'm going to ask this question because i'm curious... why confine yourself to a competition class when you are just starting to get into this? if you like it- you like it, no problem. i'm just curious.
it would just be frustrating for my to deny myself of mods while burning a set of tires in a single day avoiding cones in a flat parking lot.
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      04-09-2017, 12:53 AM   #5
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Haha, fair question. I've been autocrossing for ~15 years and am reasonably competetive (at least locally on a good day). So, yeah, it's a pain that it limits the mods, but I have a lot of in-class friends, camaraderie, and competition that makes it worth it. The other big problem is that bumping into STU (next class up), the car is just not competitive with all of the boost buggies (STi's and Evo's). Note that the Re-71r's seem to last a season(ish) for autocross, thus why I'm looking to switch to something else for proper track duty.

I'm just getting into track stuff over the last couple of years..

Last edited by irex511; 04-09-2017 at 12:58 AM. Reason: Fixed some spelling, added an ish :)
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      04-09-2017, 01:08 AM   #6
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Ok, I understand. It sounded like you were just getting into track/autocross and started out competing.
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      04-09-2017, 01:18 AM   #7
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If you can find them, Bridgestone RE-11's. I got 6+ track days, 1 auto cross and about 8k miles before the fronts gave out (inner shoulder wore out from street driving on -2.8 degrees of camber). Rears still have about 4/32's.

I've also heard good things about the RS3 (which I assume would carry over to the RS4) as far as wear goes. Without decent camber though, it's all going to be relative.
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      04-09-2017, 08:06 AM   #8
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For a pure track tire, my take is that the BFG R1 would give the best ratio of performance to wear. I've been through sets of those in the past on my E46 and E39 M5 -- very impressive tire.

Stay far clear of the Hoosier...you'll get the infamous "edge of death" very shortly on the fronts with cords showing before you know it without having proper track camber.

The NT-01 also wears very well, but for pure track use, you're going to eat into the edges up front...just not sure it would be better (longer lasting) than the RE-71R. I've been through many sets of these over the past 10-11 years since they came out. They are long wearing, for a track tire, grip well, and seem to not heat cycle out as easy as other tires...some describe them as gripping to the cords.

Finally, the original compound BFG Rival is likely the best wearing candidate of those listed. I went through two sets of those on my M3 for F-street autox and the medium speed time trial mentioned. Edge wear was very good. I had 275 square but of course on stock (required) width wheels, so the fronts were pinched on 8.5", but edge wear seemed much better than the NT-01 on 10". I guess it's a moot point, since I don't think they're producing this original non-S tire any longer. I don't have experience with the S.

I assume you're driving with DSC off else that's the likely culprit allowing massive overloading of the fronts. Braking fully, transition into trail-braking, manage entry speed properly, focus on inside rear tire for late apex corners, smooth roll on.

Try to stay 'to the left' of the peak of the tractive force vs slip angle curve. You'll know it by the slip angles you're running (i.e. if the car is understeering and adding more wheel input yields no increase in grip/decrease in understeer, you're over the peak). Many drivers think they're going faster if it's more exciting with lots of slip, but they're not. They're simply making tire companies more money. Staying just to the left of the peak allows some extra grip available to make adjustments whereas cornering at the same speed but over the peak yields nothing left but less grip with more wheel input (and rapidly increased wear rates). "Staying to the left of the peak" also has the tires running at lower temperatures and lower wear rates for the same level of grip...the ideal spot to shoot for.

Regards,
Chuck
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      04-09-2017, 08:03 PM   #9
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Take a look at the Yokohama Advan Neova AD08R. Mine are wearing pretty well considering they also had about 6,000 street miles on them last year.
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      04-10-2017, 09:42 AM   #10
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I've used the RS3 tires in square and staggered sizes for several years and they will heat cycle out before wearing out. Because of that, I've bought them slightly shaved from the Tire Rack. I have gotten as many as 60+ sessions out of them though they were really, really toasted and not fun at that point. They still had 3mm of tread left so I should have had them shaved further.
Granted, the overall grip is not as high as some of the other suggestions but that also means that I can run street camber settings in the rear and simply increase the front camber for track days. I get very even wear and do not flip my tires, running 2.5*/1.8* F/R.
The question is how different will the RS4's perform? Certainly, they will trade off longevity for more grip to keep up with the competition in their sector but to what extent? Not sure if this helps you.
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      04-10-2017, 12:02 PM   #11
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Looking at all the tires you have listed, I think Hankook TD (Hard compound) is long lasting and may fit your bill. Will not give all out time attack grip/performance, but I've heard it last forever.

I've also heard they may be tricker to drive at the limit because they let go without much warning.
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      04-10-2017, 12:38 PM   #12
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Second the R1. You're experienced enough, and if you're as halfway-decent at autocross as you say you are, quick enough, to overtax most other stuff by midway through a session unless you take it easy and where's the fun in that? Also, these cars love being driven on the rear outside tire, so do what Chuck said and steer with the back of the car more it helps a ton with front tire wear at pins-pulled camber settings. Autocrossers tend to charge mid-corner a bit too hard which means you're probably leaving the corner/passing the apex with too much steering lock punishing the outside fronts more than necessary. Makes for a quick lap, competent autocrossers almost always immediately go fast on track, but it's not friendly to the tires

If you're brave/smart enough to count flats on the front tie rod ends and remember how many you moved it, you migth consider putting a turn of front toe out in the frontend for track days to help get the rotation you want without turning the steering wheel and scrubbing the outside edges too, since you're stuck at F Stock camber and have no other good options to get more bite up front. Standing up the rear tires isn't worth it IMO

EDIT: Good choice keeping this out of the wheel/tire forum too, because good lord
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      04-10-2017, 03:02 PM   #13
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+1 for the RS3s. I have had very good experience longevity wise with mine and, like one of the posters above, they heat cycle out before any issues with tread life.
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      04-10-2017, 07:15 PM   #14
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would R1 get up to temps in an autox though? R1S for autox no? I've done one road course on R1S, holy shit these are awesome.

Will try R1 next.
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      04-10-2017, 07:51 PM   #15
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+2 for RS3's. They lasted me abt 60 sessions too. And pretty decent in the wet. NT01's are lasting well too, but not as good in the wet. The NT01's are substantially better in dry though.
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      04-10-2017, 07:55 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 Number 86 View Post
would R1 get up to temps in an autox though? R1S for autox no? I've done one road course on R1S, holy shit these are awesome.

Will try R1 next.
Yeah, R1S for autox, definitely, over the R1. When I used the R1, the R1S was many years from being announced. On an E46 ZHP in D-stock, it would create the edge of death on A6s within ~15 runs and be showing cords by 25 runs. The R1 lasted for over 100 runs before cords showed along outer front edges. The R1 slightly slower than the A6, but with the A6 costing $275 each and two fronts being wasted in 25 runs, it was far more economical for local autox events to run the R1.
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      04-10-2017, 10:39 PM   #17
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Similar to the OP, I could use some tire recommendations. I am also looking for track tires that will have good endurance & aren't going to go greasy on me quickly. And, as far as dedicated track tires go if anything I'd prefer less traction as long as it's progressive. Unlike the OP, I have less experience however. A couple track days in capable cars (1 Buttonwillow, 1 Streets of Willow, both on street tires), a couple AutoX's, a bunch of canyon driving, and uh, well, a dozen or so days at the indoor go-kart tracks .

Put another way, my default tire choice right now (for a pretty well built-up E90) is an NT01 275/35/18, in the $800's for the set. I like that I've seen people comment that the tire will give feedback as it approaches the limit and is a little more forgiving past it. It might be wiser to get a tire with less absolute grip though -- I'd like to be testing traction at lower speeds. But having been on the track last year on a street tire (Pilot Super Sports), I absolutely hated that by 6-7 laps the tires were greasy and it was time to come in.

I've seen a few recommendations for the RS3, and that could be where I end up. But it seems like they are being phased out for the RS4, I'm not seeing the RS3's in-stock, and at $1200/4 there better be a strong case for them over the much cheaper NT01's. I'm also not sure how many mistakes the NT01 would mask that the RS3 wouldn't mostly mask too (?)... But if the NT01 is a significantly bad idea for me, I suppose the cost difference between that & something else you feel would serve me better could look cheap vs. getting off track in a bad way.

Thoughts?
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      04-11-2017, 12:03 AM   #18
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Ive had good experience with Hankook RS3 tires, might not be as grippy as the RE71r but sure last longer from what I've seen. Mine has 6k miles and 10 track day sessions with tread left. Thats almost a whole year of HPDE if you track once a month. I would say the RS3 is longer lasting tire and the grip is more consistent. Since the RS3 is replaced by the RS4, I would imagine its the improved version of the RS3.

Last edited by chamba002; 04-11-2017 at 09:13 PM.
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      04-11-2017, 10:05 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpyderBite View Post
Put another way, my default tire choice right now (for a pretty well built-up E90) is an NT01 275/35/18, in the $800's for the set. I like that I've seen people comment that the tire will give feedback as it approaches the limit and is a little more forgiving past it. It might be wiser to get a tire with less absolute grip though -- I'd like to be testing traction at lower speeds. But having been on the track last year on a street tire (Pilot Super Sports), I absolutely hated that by 6-7 laps the tires were greasy and it was time to come in.

I've seen a few recommendations for the RS3, and that could be where I end up. But it seems like they are being phased out for the RS4, I'm not seeing the RS3's in-stock, and at $1200/4 there better be a strong case for them over the much cheaper NT01's. I'm also not sure how many mistakes the NT01 would mask that the RS3 wouldn't mostly mask too (?)... But if the NT01 is a significantly bad idea for me, I suppose the cost difference between that & something else you feel would serve me better could look cheap vs. getting off track in a bad way.

Thoughts?
Here's the standard answer given by one of Texas's largest and best DE organizations. "Green (Novice) and Blue (next group up out of 4) must use tires with tread wear values of 120 or more." The reason for this is just as you said, to allow the driver to feel the car move under him and not have a grippy tire mask mistakes. The NT01 is much grippier than the RS3 (and probably RS4). My recommendation would be for you to start and stay on something harder for a while. I'm running in the top group and still use the RS3's and though I would love to lap faster there are consequences for running those times such as increased wear and tear on components, increased camber requirements, decreased brake and tire life. I'm comfortable with my choice since I'm in a DD.

I don't see RS4 prices @ $1200/set, more like $1000 incl. shipping. Still higher than NT01's but they'll last longer.
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      04-11-2017, 06:23 PM   #20
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Another vote for RS3s. Hopefully my recommendation is applicable to the RS4s too. I'm really surprised by the fact that you went through a set of RE-71Rs in one day. Were you running crazy low pressures or something? Carrying way too much speed into corners? It was a square setup, right? I'd like to say that the Hankooks will give you better longevity but it's a similar class of tire to the RE-71R.
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      04-11-2017, 06:28 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpyderBite View Post
Similar to the OP, I could use some tire recommendations. I am also looking for track tires that will have good endurance & aren't going to go greasy on me quickly. And, as far as dedicated track tires go if anything I'd prefer less traction as long as it's progressive. Unlike the OP, I have less experience however. A couple track days in capable cars (1 Buttonwillow, 1 Streets of Willow, both on street tires), a couple AutoX's, a bunch of canyon driving, and uh, well, a dozen or so days at the indoor go-kart tracks .

Put another way, my default tire choice right now (for a pretty well built-up E90) is an NT01 275/35/18, in the $800's for the set. I like that I've seen people comment that the tire will give feedback as it approaches the limit and is a little more forgiving past it. It might be wiser to get a tire with less absolute grip though -- I'd like to be testing traction at lower speeds. But having been on the track last year on a street tire (Pilot Super Sports), I absolutely hated that by 6-7 laps the tires were greasy and it was time to come in.

I've seen a few recommendations for the RS3, and that could be where I end up. But it seems like they are being phased out for the RS4, I'm not seeing the RS3's in-stock, and at $1200/4 there better be a strong case for them over the much cheaper NT01's. I'm also not sure how many mistakes the NT01 would mask that the RS3 wouldn't mostly mask too (?)... But if the NT01 is a significantly bad idea for me, I suppose the cost difference between that & something else you feel would serve me better could look cheap vs. getting off track in a bad way.

Thoughts?
what is your laptime at buttonwillow and SOW? if the car loses traction, can you catch it?

you shouldn't be jumping straight to NT01 from super sports. Try RS3 or AD08R.
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      04-11-2017, 09:03 PM   #22
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Thanks TXmtrhed and #86. Ok, I'm going to abandon the NT01 as "too much tire" for me.

The RS3 seems like the top recommendation both for myself and the OP. However, an issue is that it's discontinued and replaced by the RS4. I don't think any forum members have tried RS4's yet, and there's little out there from other car folks either (unless you count 1 turbo miata -- on an AutoX course!). Sure, we'd hope it would have the core characteristics of the RS3 "only better", but we don't know yet. Maybe the RS4 gains a lot more traction, and/or becomes trickier at the limit, who knows. If it's trying to be more like an NT01 in performance, that's good for everyone else but would make it a worse choice for me.

#86's suggestion of the AD08R is very interesting. I just read some reviews as I was typing this msg, it seems like a good choice. I'll keep reading about them, hopefully they have enough endurance in which case maybe I have my solution.

I have perhaps 3-4 weeks before I have to pull the trigger on tires. Unless someone brings up something better I'll default to AD08R's ($1450 ) but at least keep an eye on any incoming data for the RS4's to see if it's worth re-considering. Maybe I'm over-thinking but I'm imagining the improvements that may come with the RS4 could make it better for me down the road but not as good as an AD08R for starting out.

Last edited by SpyderBite; 04-11-2017 at 09:23 PM.
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