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      08-24-2007, 11:03 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by ToddMcF2002 View Post
I don't track, but I would like the option. But why offer so many goofy lux GT items and ignore performance options? Since they waited until the end of the e46 run to offer the Comp Package I guess I shouldnt be surprised.

I'm also very gun shy about all the electronics. I'm not kidding around, my car was a disaster. 9.5 weeks in the shop the last year I owned it. All of it ECU/Sensor related. At the end I wanted to take a sledge to the ECU.
I would like the option of multi-piston brake calipers in the E92 M3 also, because it is difficult to explain why an 135i has better calipers than an M3.

Somehow BMW Marketing (I do not think that this is an engineering decision) believes that the 135i potential market will appreciate the standard 6-piston front brake calipers more than the E92 M3 market.

By offering multipiston calipers at all - and amazingly in the 1 Series- BMW is actually "flip flopping" in their published position of not considering the calipers as a factor in braking performance as critical as rotor swept area and tires. Engineering-wise, they are correct. But Marketing-wise, brake calipers are also a visual and performance factor, especially in the market that the 135i is supposed to compete (Evo, STi, G37). But again, the M3 market is also abundant with offerings with multipiston calipers, from the Cayman to the Z06. And for me, 1-piston sliding calipers in this market is kind of cost cutting under an engineering jumbo-talk.

So if adjustable shocks -very nice, but M cars were doing just fine with mechanical suspensions for a long time- are an option, why there's no option for a real big-brake package?
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      08-24-2007, 11:28 AM   #90
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Its a GT thing. They are repeating the M5 mistake. Its an M. We only need one stearing setup and one suspension setup. Anything else is purely lux pandering. Order without EDC and you can setup your own suspension by modding. Skip MDrive nonsense and buy some Brembos with the savings.

Good luck solving the stearing though.

I just hope this techno puff balling won't create the reliablity issues you see in the M5.
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      08-24-2007, 11:40 AM   #91
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Epacy and MI6 started hitting me with fan boy responses when I expressed what I thought were legitimate concerns about the M3. Got to the point where I thought I would have some fun and take them to task a bit. I agree with you in general. However, I find it ironic that you never call the fan boys out for "needling" or "fanboism" in fact you support their arguments. Epacy had it right when he said this is BMW site. I need to keep that in mind.
What I like are comments/opinions/posts based on facts, what I don't like are some kind of polemic posts, whose purpose is only to provoke others. Maybe you're right that I'm less tolerant with "hating" posts, but most of them are based on wrong facts. (a counter example is your critics about the brakes: we all know that they're not the strongest point and I do and did agree with you on that). So if somebody has doubt about the quality/performance of the new M3, everything's OK as long as it's somewhat logical. I don't see that in much of the critical posts here.
So feel free to call me a fanboy as you did already. Don't care about that. It won't stop me pointing out people's wrong/illogical points.

Best regards, south
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      08-24-2007, 12:35 PM   #92
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What I like are comments/opinions/posts based on facts, what I don't like are some kind of polemic posts, whose purpose is only to provoke others. Maybe you're right that I'm less tolerant with "hating" posts, but most of them are based on wrong facts. (a counter example is your critics about the brakes: we all know that they're not the strongest point and I do and did agree with you on that). So if somebody has doubt about the quality/performance of the new M3, everything's OK as long as it's somewhat logical. I don't see that in much of the critical posts here.
So feel free to call me a fanboy as you did already. Don't care about that. It won't stop me pointing out people's wrong/illogical points.

Best regards, south

And you should argue your points. I think this discussion over the electronics packages is a great discussion, since it gets to the heart of the matter regarding the GT focus. But hey if BMW can pull it off and deliver scorching stearing response with MDrive and track ripping stability with EDC then, regardless of the brakes sign me up!
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      08-24-2007, 12:43 PM   #93
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What I like are comments/opinions/posts based on facts, what I don't like are some kind of polemic posts, whose purpose is only to provoke others. Maybe you're right that I'm less tolerant with "hating" posts, but most of them are based on wrong facts. (a counter example is your critics about the brakes: we all know that they're not the strongest point and I do and did agree with you on that). So if somebody has doubt about the quality/performance of the new M3, everything's OK as long as it's somewhat logical. I don't see that in much of the critical posts here.
So feel free to call me a fanboy as you did already. Don't care about that. It won't stop me pointing out people's wrong/illogical points.

Best regards, south
South,
Truth be known, I am probably one the biggest fan boys on the forum. I just try really hard not to look like a fan boy becuase it comes off looking so naive and ruins credibility. You can use your "polemic" labels to call me a provoker and goodness forbid a hater but I can tell you this - I look a lot more objective in rational eyes than you do talking the BMW mantra claiming my critiques as well as other about BMW are "wrong/illogical" and your glowing reviews of BMW are nothing but fact....Please. So much for your concern about it being boring. If my facts are right, you are the "provoker" who took the first shot at me in the past and again with the "needling" comment. So if you are going to get in the kitchen you had better be able to stand the heat. All good bantering aside, I say this in all seriousness, please don't stopping pointing out peoples factual errors, especially mine. You are as knowledgable as they get on this forum - so there. Boy are we hurting for new info on the beast or what? Keep up the good work South.
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      08-24-2007, 12:59 PM   #94
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As you know, I am not happy with the direction the M division is heading. Sort of the beginning of the end for me starting with the e60. However, I do agree with you in part. IMO, The M3 will take the C2 on all but the twistiest courses. M3 should also be able stay close to C2S. IMO, the E92 4 litre is also a better powerplant than the C2S' 3.8 and not just because of the horsepower ratings. I would even take the M3's 4 litre powerplant over the GT3 and 997 turbo powerplants and that is saying something. There is a reason why BMW wins so many international engine awards (now one can argue how objective these awards are but it is BMW who is winning so who is whining, right)? I think M did a good job trying to keep the weight down, especially considering their intent was to build a great GT car sporting a racing motor. The CSL will be the car for the track. My frustratation stems from a history of no CSL offering in the states and the fact that BMW has this incredible motor that they dumb down with single pot brakes and electronic assist steering that numbs both feel and response. You can probably attest, M's of old had incredible steering response and feel. Steering seems to have worsened with each succeeding generation. Swamp, I know you have experience with the engineering aspect of mountain bikes. I race road bicycles on occasion. As you know, bike manufactures are experts at selling bikes with great frames that look like a great deal price wise but sneak in cheaper components, wheels or vice versa to more than make up the difference. This is my fear with the M3.
M should stick with their roots a bit more and make a small super trackworthy car. It was looking like the M version of the 1 could have been the ticket but now it looks like that car is too heavy and there won't be an M1 (partly as the name was taken long ago, I guess...).

I think the jury is still out on the brakes and steering. It seems like you disagree with that? We have seen some glowing feedback and some way less than stellar as well. I sure did like ILC32's post on brakes though. He's obviously more of a "track dude" than me! I will be the first to turn if the steering, brakes and all the electronics detract/subtract from the car rather than add to it. If they detract your point about a great engine (or great bike frame) thrown together with lousy components is right on mark.

My 2 cents on the electronics is: EDC = +5, who wouldn't want a bit more comfort for the street and go-cart like characteristics for the canyons or track? However, the steering maps and throttle maps could easily be removed with no loss to the car for any level of enthusiast.
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      08-24-2007, 01:17 PM   #95
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I think the jury is still out on the brakes and steering. It seems like you disagree with that?
Still hoping BMW takes the brake and steering concerns seriously and tweaks things before the U.S. launch.

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My 2 cents on the electronics is: EDC = +5, who wouldn't want a bit more comfort for the street and go-cart like characteristics for the canyons or track? However, the steering maps and throttle maps could easily be removed with no loss to the car for any level of enthusiast.
I agree with you, though I think one could get away without having EDC with the 18's due to their thicker side wall. 19's and I think EDC would have to be mandatory for me.
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      08-24-2007, 01:23 PM   #96
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I sure did like ILC32's post on brakes though. He's obviously more of a "track dude" than me!
I appreciate the sentiment Swamp, but I am actually trying to say I probably will NOT track my new M3 if I buy it. (I will be tracking the new M3 in October in Germany, but the car will be owned by BMW, not me!)

I do not claim to be a big time racer or to have great skills at the track. My concern is whether the brakes on the new M3 will be up to the task for me, and not whether the brake hardware offers the best ultimate theoretical performance under all-out endurance race conditions.

I guess where I am coming from is all this angst about the brakes (and especially the number of pistons) to me seem: (1) premature, and (2) based on some Le Mans fantasy and not how most people who buy this car will actually use it.
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      08-24-2007, 01:37 PM   #97
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South,
Truth be known, I am probably one the biggest fan boys on the forum. I just try really hard not to look like a fan boy becuase it comes off looking so naive and ruins credibility. You can use your "polemic" labels to call me a provoker and goodness forbid a hater but I can tell you this - I look a lot more objective in rational eyes than you do talking the BMW mantra claiming my critiques as well as other about BMW are "wrong/illogical" and your glowing reviews of BMW are nothing but fact....Please. So much for your concern about it being boring. If my facts are right, you are the "provoker" who took the first shot at me in the past and again with the "needling" comment. So if you are going to get in the kitchen you had better be able to stand the heat. All good bantering aside, I say this in all seriousness, please don't stopping pointing out peoples factual errors, especially mine. You are as knowledgable as they get on this forum - so there. Boy are we hurting for new info on the beast or what? Keep up the good work South.
Seems I have to deal with your methodical style of argumentation. First you're doing somewhat exaggerated points to get clear stats from other members and then being forgiving. So to me you're saying about the kitchen and the heat is for yourself primary.
After having the controversy about brakes with E already finished you came back with that statement. Same here: All I did say is that when I'm correcting people's statements here it's mostly because of wrong facts. Never said that everything I said was a fact and I really don't think my post can be read that way. I simply responded to your comment about criticizing the negative posts, whereas I'm supporting the fanboys; was not talking about my posts in general.
So now I'm facing another attack about being less objective than you. That's needless, but hey, I should be able to handle with heat.
Don't see for what's that method good, but don't have to either...Maybe I should just skip your future thread starts saying "Is the M3 just a big desaster", "Is the 330 better" and so on. But yeah, that's objective. How could an argument wrapped in a question not be...
Sorry for the OT

Best regards, south
(E, you owe me a beer)
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      08-24-2007, 03:00 PM   #98
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Best regards, south
(E, you owe me a beer)
You are right, I think I do owe you a pint. How about a few Andechser Doppelbocks next year at the monastery, if I make down that way, via European delivery?
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      08-24-2007, 03:11 PM   #99
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You are right, I think I do owe you a pint. How about a few Andechser Doppelbocks next year at the monastery, if I make down that way, via European delivery? next year?
What a proposal (I meant Epacy by saying E).
You're familiar with German beer already, aren't you?

Best regards, south
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      08-24-2007, 03:54 PM   #100
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Maybe I can help. The M3's single pot brakes are sick. They are the best designed, best looking and best performing brakes on the the planet. Don't you know the M3 is a BMW?...end of discussion.
haha.. keep the fan boys happy. eh? i love bmws but won't make excuses for them when they screw up..
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      08-24-2007, 03:56 PM   #101
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(I meant Epacy by saying E).
My mistake. I guess I owe Sir Epacy a beer as well.
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      08-24-2007, 04:35 PM   #102
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haha.. keep the fan boys happy. eh? i love bmws but won't make excuses for them when they screw up..
Hey wise guy, you owe me a brat and a beer.
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      08-24-2007, 04:50 PM   #103
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Honestly, how many hot shoes complaining about the brakes will (a) actually buy the car AND (b) take it on the track at 10/10s?
(a) i have a deposit on one and pending a test drive will be buying one. (b) i will be taking it on track and driving it at my limit.
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      08-24-2007, 04:51 PM   #104
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Hey wise guy, you owe me a brat and a beer.
sure.. next time your up this way
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      08-24-2007, 05:10 PM   #105
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sure.. next time your up this way
Can you pick up Springsteen tickets as well?
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      08-24-2007, 06:08 PM   #106
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So feel free to call me a fanboy as you did already. Don't care about that. It won't stop me pointing out people's wrong/illogical points.
Probably the truest thing I have ever read on this site.

Well done S.
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      08-24-2007, 06:15 PM   #107
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Best regards, south
(E, you owe me a beer)
I shall buy you multiple beers, just cause.
Hacker-Pschorr ok with you?
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      08-24-2007, 08:53 PM   #108
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I shall buy you multiple beers, just cause.
Hacker-Pschorr ok with you?
See what I mean South, offer to buy Epacy a beer and he is still going off, amazing, he cannot give it up. Not much of joker either, oh well, can't say I didn't try. Hate to see what he labels Mitsubishi enthusiasts. He is aware BMW contracts with Mitsubishi to build it's turbos? Gotta love Epacy, but I am not sure if my offer still stands if he is going to keep talking that way.
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      08-24-2007, 09:05 PM   #109
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See what I mean South, offer to buy Epacy a beer and he is still going off, amazing, he cannot give it up.


What in the sam hell are you talking about?
Your posts continue to get more and more puzzling.

My reply to S was in a jovial manner.
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      08-24-2007, 09:08 PM   #110
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What in the sam hell are you talking about?
Your posts continue to get more and more puzzling..
Nice Avatar, by the way, are you on crack?....only kidding.

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My reply to S was in a jovial manner.
My reply to you was in the same manner.

Last edited by ruff; 08-24-2007 at 11:15 PM.
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